#138: Big Foods Playbook featuring Calley Means

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Well, Cali, how's that how's Austin treating you? Enjoying your podcast tour?

Well, as I was, feeding my son on, I think, January 3 and and ripping out a quick tweet on, the corrupt food system, I was not expecting to to be doing this and, Tucker Carlson and and doing a bunch of podcasts, but it's it's been gratifying. I think it's an important message. And I'm honestly surprised it resonated because I thought it was so obvious the system's rigged, but, but it does seem to be resonating. I think I think people are frustrated, and and and trying to figure out what's going on with, twenty five percent of kids now having prediabetes and fifty percent of, Americans having prediabetes or diabetes.

We were checking the statistics on that tweet prior to us sitting down, and I think it has, like, 57,000 likes, millions of impressions. It's probably just unbelievable just to see the impact of what putting, you know, just putting some content on on the Internet can have.

It really you know, it it's it's fun and, you know, the those statistics are are great, but it's like it sounds corny, but, you know, I really am gratified that it gave it seems to have given a voice to some people. The the crazy thing for me is that I've gotten hundreds of messages from moms, and that's who's really it seems to resonate with. I I think I think when you look at a kid's classroom right now and the rise in allergies, the rise in autoimmune conditions, obviously, the rise in overweight and obesity, I think there's real frustration among parents. I I I have a new son, and and it's it's it is scary. And it's just like something is going on Mhmm.

With nutrition. So so it seemed to resonate, particularly among among parents, which is cool.

What sort of feedback are you getting from those parents? Like, are you getting kinda similar questions across the board, or is it, more, like, widespread types of questions?

Yeah. I I think we eventually get to what we

need to do, and and we can talk about that. Yeah. But but I I think what's resonating is identifying the problem. This is my kind of theory from what I'm seeing is that I think the American patient, the American parent has been gaslighted to not ask questions. This idea of of trusting the science, this idea that you're a a friend wacko for trying to self diagnose or go outside of our traditional medical system.

But at the same time, we've been getting exponentially sicker, more depressed, more infertile. I mean, male sperm counts plummeting, PCOS leading cause of infertility is going up, you know, and more depressed. And, and I think in the when all these things are happening and we're being told not to ask any questions, I think people are starting to wake up. And, so I I think that's the first thing. It's like, it's okay, you know, to question your pediatrician as they're saying that the kid should be taking a bunch of antibiotics and a bunch of drugs and, you know, a bunch of processed food, which is literally the guidelines that that that pediatricians give.

Well, you know, when the American Academy of Pediatrics now is saying that 12 year olds who are obese, which is which is twenty five percent of teenagers, should be getting an injection instead of eating healthy. I mean, I I think it's there's a license now that people can kinda wake up and question incentives, and that seems to be resonating. I think that's important to establish that, and then we can talk about answers because there there are definitely some answers.

Why don't we unpack the tweet Yeah. That you put out because it was incredibly powerful. I think something along the context of with food stamps, I think the budget for that is a hundred and 10,000,000,000, if that's correct.

Right. That's right.

1010% of that budget is going towards soda related beverages, and you basically unpack the exact playbook that you saw that Coca Cola utilizes to keep that 10% number. That was the way that I interpret it, but would love to just hear from your perspective.

Yeah. I think I think this gives a very kind of tactical playbook of what's happening time and time again. And I think, I think it's very instructive. So so 02/2012, the ag bill is up, the the farm bill. And, again, as you said, 15% of Americans depend on the food stamp program for nutrition.

10% of that goes to sugary drinks. And I don't think there's any scientific disagreement. Sugary drinks are an absolute bomb for glucose levels, very little nutrition. It's absolute disaster. An average child today in one twenty ounce bottle of Coke ingest as much sugar as they did a, in a year, just a hundred years ago.

Wow. I mean and it's actually much more weaponized in liquid form. So so it's obvious. I don't think anyone's really scientifically disagreeing. That's not shouldn't be subsidized in nutrition program, but it's a material part of Coke's revenue.

Again, over $10,000,000,000, of food stamp money is spent on these sugary drinks. So how does Coke keep the status quo? And the key is you weaponize systems of trust. You you weaponize the these institutions that, an average American, or just any American, relies on. So the first is the civil rights organizations, the NAACP.

So Koch went to the NAACP. And what was shocking is being in the room, being in the room, the conversations were very transactional. It was literally like across the table, we're gonna pay you millions of dollars and you're gonna call our opponents racist. And calling someone racist shuts down the debate. Yes.

And they know that. And, these

are you know, the optics were crazy. It was these white, you know, PR executives telling the NAACP who to call racist and then an exchange of funds of millions of dollars. And, and as the New York Times reported, that really did shift the debate in 02/2012.

There was an absolute onslaught. And,

and and the the people that were being called racist, the people that were being shut down were parents concerned about their kids ingesting a

hundred times new sugar.

So so

that's one. It was pretty disparity to see. Number two is think tanks. So that's a very big deal in Washington, DC. You know, think tanks are, you know, the budget of the heritage of innovation who I've called out is a hundred plus million dollars a year.

You know, these are real, like, PR influence organizations that if their weight comes down on you, it's a big deal. And I, you know, I grew up conservative. I I interned at the Heritage Foundation. It's the gold standard for conservative think tanks. And it was dispiriting, you know, early in my career after working in politics, really trying to get in it for the right reasons, seeing that everyone after campaigns goes into consulting and inevitably consults on both sides of the aisle for food and pharma.

You know, we go into these think tanks that, that I really admired, and it is a direct transaction. It is like going in and ordering a Big Mac at McDonald's, and I want pickles on it. It's it's it's that blatant. You you call up a fundraiser at the Heritage Foundation. They tell you kinda what's gonna happen, then you go in and meet with a a scholar and talk high level with the Coke executives or the farm executives.

And then you walk out and the fundraiser gives you a wink, and and there's an exchange of funds. So the Heritage Foundation pounded this. Right? They're like, oh, these these patriarchal policies of of of of these, people trying to tell lower income people what to eat even though the rig system is actually paying tens of billions of dollars for this food. So that was another big one.

And then then the last one we can unpack more, but I'll

I'll go over it quickly,

is, is research institutions. Now I think you guys have hit on this, like like like like we've talked, but it it's still shocking to me how unimpeachable people see a peer reviewed study. You know? You you you have a news article about a peer reviewed study from a institution like Harvard. Oh, well, that's the end of the debate.

It is so easy to dictate what studied and what questions are being answered. And I just think it's very instructive. Right? The the the nineteen nineties food pyramid that I think is the most disastrous public policy potentially in United States history. I mean, the deaths and cost that came from recommending more carbs, right, you know, less healthy fats, have been in the trillions and of dollars and millions of lives.

And that was the foundation of that research was Harvard research, which was directly paid for by sugar companies. And you'd think that's over, but today, right, the leading preeminent study from the NIH right now is the food compass from Tufts.

Millions of dollars funded by the NIH, and it's telling us Lucky Charms are healthier than eggs, and Honey Nut Cheerios are healthier than beef. It's like it's it would be funny if that wasn't then being weaponized

Mhmm.

To to to to to influence our kids' meals. And, and, yeah, the Coke Coke, has a list of of nutrition experts at Tufts, at Harvard, at Stanford. And you have PR executives in Washington DC, dictating nutrition research, and you have Coca Cola and processed food companies funding 11 times more,

for basic nutrition research than the NIH. And, anyone who thinks the billions of dollars that processed food and pharma companies spend, donating to research at universities, that that's out of a philanthropic goodwill to advance, you you know, non ideological scholarship, they're they're not correct.

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One one

of the reasons we were excited to have you on the show is because you've you've been behind the curtains of a few of the the institutions that you just mentioned. So you you went to Stanford and Harvard, and then you you've also worked at Coca Cola and seen what happens behind the scenes. And it it it you used the right word. Right? Like, incentives kinda drive the behavior, and the playbook is almost like doubling down on offense so hard that it it's just like they're trying to defend from all angles and then aggressively fund these types of initiatives that skew public perception on, like, what's real.

Right? There's this gaslighting. How do you how do you perceive, like, whether that's, like, out of just trying to fund the bottom line, get and get, you know, the the profits? Or, you know, is it nefarious in in other ways as well?

I think it's a really important question because it's a little bit uncomfortable. It's a you know, we we we know people that work in pharma. You know, many of my friends from business school work in pharma, work in food, work at Pepsi. Right? We know our doctor.

They're not bad people. So I think we gotta unpack that a little bit. I I think we really gotta be clear. And I and I and I have a strong opinion on that from seeing inside these rooms. You know, even the executives at the NAACP patching this very transactional racial strategy, they are not looking at they're not it's not an evil conspiracy in their heads.

Right? Everyone and I think this is I'm a free market guy. Coke should exist. Farmers should exist. Like, they shouldn't even be trying to rig the system if they can, but we've gotta call it out.

You know? I'm not saying they shouldn't exist, but but the fact is the incentives of the $4,000,000,000,000 health care system, the $6,000,000,000,000 health food system is to grow. Yeah. And and and it's no one person, but but the but I think the beauty of the system in a way is that it's convinced everyone they're doing the right thing. So the Coke executives really do legitimately feel, many of them, like they're feeding people.

And the pharma executives really do feel like they're helping people. You know? If somebody is, like, you know, on you know, massively obese, diabetic, like, really on the verge of heart may they probably do need a drug. The problem is the link. The problem is that the food companies, you know, aren't responsible for health.

They're they've made food more addictive. You know? The foundation of our diet is highly processed grains, which turns into sugar, which is addictive, which was created just a hundred years ago. Seed oils, which are inflammatory, make the food more addictive, invented it just a hundred years ago and added sugar, which really didn't exist a hundred years ago. The basis of our food evolutionary, we're not able to meet to to eat it really to process, and it's, and and it's highly addictive.

And that's good for food companies. So they're not responsible for the health. They've done that. Food's become much cheaper. Right?

And and more processed, you take the the processing of the grain, takes the takes the fiber away, so it's shelf stable, but that makes, you know, the sugar impact much higher. So that's food. The problem is then the pharma and the hospitals and all these other institutions, they're there to pick up the mess. They're not taking responsibility for the fact that everyone's getting sicker. So they're like, oh, we're doing a great because there's the these lazy humans are eating their McDonald's, you know, their processed food, and we're cleaning up the mess.

So they in their heads But but the problem is nobody's asking why people are getting sick. Like, there's no incentive. Yeah. So so that that's one of the problems, and that's why it's important. I think people are waking up, you know, the books, podcasts, people buying bio wearables and seeing things that aren't making sense.

But we've got to understand this this devil's bargain. It's like it's like we're getting sick from food and then nobody's there to ask why. Mhmm.

I think you touched on a really important point about the mindset of corporate executives at Coke and these big food companies because that's something that Harry and I spent a lot of time kinda pinballing back and forth and just we ask ourselves, are these guys evil? How do they morally justify what they're doing? Understanding that they're selling a product that's probably causing, you know, terrible metabolic health outcomes. But it sounds like they are able to justify it and say, okay. We're feeding the world or, hey.

We're donating to maybe some of these nonprofits or something like that. I'd I'd love to just unpack the mindset of some of these executives that you worked with and, you know, how they kind of view what they're doing.

Yeah. So so I think it's changing. We could talk about that in a second, but it is still is predominantly the mindset. You know, at the Heritage Foundation, it's like we're fighting taxes. You know?

We're they're getting paid by COPA. We're fight the problem is that they determine what to fight based on what who they're paid. And, actually, sometimes, you can pay the Heritage Foundation, if you're trying to get a preferential tax, and they've labeled things as not a tax. So it's like what they're even fighting is paid for, but it's like, you know, somebody there is, I'm ideological. These these, you know, sugar taxes or or or or banning sugar from food stamps is patriarchal.

They convince themselves. I did it. Again, the food companies, they they think they're feeding America. They think, you know, they they've relied on these studies saying calorie in, calorie out, you know, those type of things. I I will say, I I do think it's changing a little bit.

Let let's talk about medical systems, because I I'm writing a book with my sister who's who's really influenced me on this, doctor Casey Means, who's the who dropped out of surgery and went to Denver med school, kind of was the pride of the family, realized everything she's doing surgery on is related to inflammation and metabolic health, realized she didn't learn, didn't take one nutrition class at Stanford med school. They they don't they don't offer it. And, and started this company Levels, Tell People Measure Their Metabolic Health. Through her and and now through doctors that are reaching out to me, there is a knowledge that things aren't working. You know, actually, if you look at the medical profession, it's it's one of the highest burnout dropout rates.

It's one of the highest suicide rates, unfortunately. It's one of the highest rates of depression. It's multiple times more than the average population. I believe that's because the medical system takes the best and brightest of the world who go in for the right reasons. And it is it is obvious to anyone in a hospital that patients aren't getting better.

Yeah. So I do think people feel very trapped. You know, I think I I I I think there's that one end of the spectrum. There's the other end of the spectrum. You know, a lot of people attack me on Twitter.

The head of the head of endoc endocrinology and hormone disorders at UCSF, one of the leaders there is like, well, we're helping people. People people are making bad decisions, and we're here to help. You know? And that's that perfectly what people think. And I think they really do think that in the head.

They think that the American people are lazy. They think that they're going to eat terrible things, and they're there to clean up the mess. That's such a convenient way to think when there's trillions of dollars of you know, there's there's tens of billions of dollars of farm subsidies subsidizing sugar and processed grains, you know, where health care only kicks in once you get sick, which is lobbied for by pharma, you know, where we're getting completely ridiculous nutritional guidelines to eat Lucky Charms instead of beef. Like so it's just very convenient to profit off that fact and just call Americans lazy. When I when I look outside, you know, I see people suffering.

I mean, people are overweight, clearly, like, diabetic. Mhmm. But but I don't think people want that to be the case. I really do think it's, like, a very rigged system. And it's just it's just so, in a way, evil to just wash your hands of it and say, well, this is what's gonna happen.

We're gonna prescribe our drugs. We're gonna do our you know, it's like we've got to ask why people are sick.

Yeah. It's become really easy to obfuscate responsibility in today's world where, like, you know, Coke can just do what they do and then say, like, you know, we're we're gonna try to, like, do other good things, donate to the right causes, but then at the end of the day, they can just feel good about feel good about

it. That's that's the beauty of the system. The beauty and I'd say this, like, from a system design standpoint, everyone can can feel good about it. But somebody's got to be asking questions. And in my opinion, that should be the medical system.

Mhmm. I like I like like, this is a crazy concept, but the, like, the foundation of medical, you know, a medical institution like a hospital or a public health institution should be how to keep people healthy. There's not a single institution asking why people are getting sick. If you ask a doctor who studies diabetes, they graduated from Harvard. I've done it.

You know, what's the underlying cause of diabetes? They they literally don't can't explain the metabolic aspects. They see diabetes as a one off condition. Diabetes is the foundation of what makes us sick. It's literally a cellular dysregulation.

You know, fifty percent of the country is prediabetic or diabetic. Ninety three percent has has an indicator of metabolic dysfunction. Like, our cells are malfunctioning. Like yes. Like like like and that's leading ninety nine percent of people with diabetes have at least one other condition.

It's like, so so so the fact that we like, leading diabetes doctors and even the American you know, the ADA, the American Diabetes Association says that this is like an isolated, you know, disease to treat. That's so off. It's so profitable. Mhmm. But it's just like like like, everything is connected.

It's connected by food. It's connect like, if you cut sugar, seed oils, and highly processed grains, you you basically wouldn't have like like, prominent doctors have said this, Mark Hyman and other you you basically wouldn't have diabetes or heart disease, which is, like, a foundational to a lot of other diseases. So, yeah, gotta wake up.

And then you have people like, doctor Gary Fettke out of Tasmania, who's a surgeon. He's so he was so tired of seeing his diabetic patients losing their limbs and having to chop off their limbs that he starts talking to them about living limiting their sugar and carbohydrate intake, gets completely persecuted by the medical board. He's at he's at risk of losing his license. And then his wife, Belinda, is doing all this research trying to help him with this case, and she finds out that there's emails from Koch telling the medical board to go after him. So it's just so interesting.

Well, this is another thing I saw. So, like, you know, literally, you you go to a consulting office, some of these public affairs consultants in DC, and the interns are pulling lists called list of friendlies and, and and basically creating a donation strategy. So this is what's really, I mean, just just unbelievable when you peel back the onion. The American Diabetes Association, credentials like doctors who treat diabetes, they can revoke the license. These are not like fringe organizations.

The American Academy of Pediatrics credentials, pediatricians, and they provide the guidance that if you go outside that guidance, you are at risk of losing your license. Like like, it is the gold standard. It's also, like, absolutely the unimpeachable advice for parents. Right? And they accept food and pharma money.

The the the the the American Academy of Pediatrics, it's right on the website. It's 90% funded by pharma, and they've accepted food money. And the American Diabetes Association has accepted millions of dollars from Coke, Cadbury, many other processed food companies until 2018. The official guidance of the American Diabetes Association was that as long as you took your insulin, you could eat whatever you want. Like, literally whatever you want.

You did not even need to limit your sugar intake. And what is so crazy about that is that if you're eating these inflammatory processed foods where sugar is going into your mitochondria at a rate hundred to 50 x what it did a hundred years ago, and it's being kicked out and turning into fat and being turned diabetes is one problem, but, like, it it it it if you're not managing what you're putting in your body, you're gonna have other issues, which is why there's all these comorbidities. And you had them saying that till 2018. You had the Coca Cola logo on the ADA website, a Coca Cola. And then the American Heart Association is even worse.

Millions and millions of dollars to this day funded by food companies, by processed food companies. So so you basically have these institutions that literally credential and make the paradigm of what docs are supposed to follow being funded by food companies. I mean, it sounds it sounds almost so ridiculous you don't even believe it. But, like, you know, again, step one is is just understanding this. Like, just understanding this and and and being able to ask a little bit more questions about this when when your kid they're saying your kid should have an injection for obesity.

I know that there are people that say we've had a number of different endocrinologists on the show that love advocating for a low carb diet to treat type two diabetes. Has the ADA officially changed their stance at all and advocated or posted any content around the efficacy of a low carbohydrate diet? If you've seen

yeah. So you need to look at the website. They might have been pressured to pay a little bit more lip service nutrition. But the the the profession of of doctors that treat diabetes, and I can tell you just anecdotally from Twitter, it is very much drug based. It's very much innovation bay innovation based.

They're the way they flip the debate is that we're being heartless for saying that people should have nutrition. That's almost like classist. And that, you know, there's all these people suffering, so they need their well, yes. If somebody is is is really, you know, diabetic and they I'm not saying they shouldn't have insulin. We've got to ask why so many people are diabetic.

But, yeah, no. The the the ADA is a total scandal, and and I would just urge people to, you know, dig into the idea that diabetes is an arbitrary marker of blood sugar's regulation. There's nothing scientifically meaningful about the diabetes glucose measurement. It it's on the spectrum of of fasting glucose levels. There's this gaslighting, I believe, out there that, you know, once you hit that level, it's totally nonreversible.

It's totally you know, there's a lot of data that you can really get that level back down. I think everyone has hope. I think the process of learning about blood sugar dysregulation is gonna dramatically lower, you know, your risk for other diseases, including depression. And, and it's a great, it's a great journey to be on. I mean, just a personal story.

My you know, what really motivates me is my mom passed away, from pancreatic cancer. She was perfectly healthy, got a diagnosis of pancreatic cancer, in early twenty twenty one and died thirteen days later. And she was pre diabetic and that was caused by her pre diabetes. And, ninety percent of people or so, that have pancreatic cancer also have pre diabetes or diabetes. It's really a metabolic condition.

But in the year, it was late too late for her, but but but I'll tell you, like, her really understand these concepts, really working on her pre prediabetes in the years before that had a profound impact on me, and it really added to her life. And I really see her living in me and my sister because, you know, just being on that journey, understanding your body, having more, you know, curiosity and awe for how diabetes is connected to other diseases. It's like it had a profound impact on me and we carry that forward. But I think we have to get to that. We have to understand how all of these diseases that we're, you know, randomly experiencing are fundamentally tied to our cellular function, which is tied to food.

And and I just think, there's a lot of of interest trying to trying to obfuscate that fact, including from the American Diabetes Association.

I, I I can't help but, like, be inspired by, like, the mission and, like, story that, like, came out of that hardship. But I feel like between you and your sister, you guys are both drawing really interesting, ways of going about solving the problem. Like, you're putting really good information out there, and she has this Levels product, which in my mind is kind of this technology of the future that allows people to bring health back under their own, ability to decide, like, hey, what's good for me and what's not? Like, really do some research for yourself that can't you one of one of the problems I've seen in, like, the food system is we've outsourced all of our thinking to other people. Levels lets you real time data on the food that you're putting in your body and and see how it's affecting your mood, your sleep, you know, your life in in every aspect.

So I think, like, just between the two of you, it's just an an awesome story and mission.

Thanks, man. And just one insight from that is that there's dozens of US states that still have laws preventing patients from getting their medical records. In many states, the medical system actually owns patient data. And I really think as as we've talked about, there's been this disempowerment of patients having awe and understanding for what's happening inside their body. So personally, you know, there's a lot of talk about bio wearables.

There's a lot of bio wearables right now. It's you know, some people say it's a bubble. I think there are you know, the market will shake out, but I do think we're in the very early stages of understanding what's in our body. And I think in ten years, I really think these biowarblestones are gonna disrupt the doctor's office. Because if you really understand, you know, eventually, like, your glucose, your ketones, your hydration, you can actually, like, have really good data to actually know, hey.

I should need a little bit more meat today for these micronutrients, you know, omega threes that are gonna help me with how I'm you know, I'm I need to drink a little bit more water. I need to get a little bit more sleep. Like like, that, I think, is the future, and and I think we're very early innings on that. And I think it's all about patients having more understanding of what's going on in their body. Yeah.

It it's one of those things too that kinda needs to start being private. It's, like, needs to be privately funded because the legacy system is so captured by insurance where insurance has no incentive to be like, yeah. We'll we'll pay for your wearables so you're not going to the doctor.

Insurance is a big problem here. I mean, I I again, talking to, like, leading health policy experts, they still say, well, insurance, yeah, they're they're incentivized for nutrition. That is not true. Yeah. The the incentives of insurance are that according to the Affordable Care Act, right, there was this big populous thing.

Oh, insurance are taking a 40% profit margin. So the Affordable Care Act put it at 15%. The insurance companies could only make 15%, basically profit. They have to pay 85% out. So their their profit is capped.

Right? That start that creates an incentive that they want the pie to be bigger. If you can only get 15%, you want the pie to be bigger. You want that that that number to that makes that number higher. So there is absolutely no incentive.

There's actually reverse incentive for insurance companies wanting cost to be down or people to be healthier. Again, I have spoken to, like like, c suite at leading, you know, a guy at a leading, one of the COOs of a of a top five insurance company, you know, their child, has diabetes. They they they're not evil people, but he also and some of these executives that, you know, admitted to me, and they understand the incentives are absolutely screwed.

Mhmm.

Like, the the and it's exactly what's happening. Premiums are going through the roof. People are getting more unhealthy. Anything from insurance, unless it's a fundamentally, like, different insurance program on wellness or wearables, it is PR, And it is not an info and it because it's just not they'll they'll lose money. So that insurance is a big problem.

What do

you think is happening at a macro level where people are waking up to what's going on with our food system, insurance, flawed incentives? I'm sure you've been thinking about that with just how much your your Twitter account has blown up in a very short period of time. It's something we spend a lot of time thinking about. But I'm just curious. What what do you think is going on?

I think it's just reality. Mhmm. I mean, this is this is my framework. I think people in their twenties, thirties, forties who are there are two things that are happening. They're looking at something a little off happening with their parents.

Chronic diseases are all over the place. Parent our parents are less healthy than they should be. Life expectancy is declining for the most sustained period since 1860. It's going down way before COVID. So I think they're concerned about their parents, and I think it's it's looking at what's what's happening to kids.

I mean, it is absolutely unacceptable what has happened to kids. You know, fifteen percent of call high school seniors are on Adderall. SSRIs are rampant. Developmental issues are rampant. Depression's rampant.

Suicide is the number two leading cause of death for a teenager, autoimmune conditions, chronic conditions, obesity. I mean, it's like I you know, I'm not and I think many generations, you look back and say are are kind of pessimistic. There's something that's concerning that's happening with kids. Yeah. And, and I think that really makes it visceral and kind of demolishes any kind of partisan lens on this.

I I think there's a okay. So that's one. And I number two is I I think there's amazing content coming out. I mean, like, I, when I got into this, read 20 books, listened to podcasts, you know, have listened to a lot of you guys. You know, there's a lot of people from from from Joe Rogan to to health podcast to to the left, to the right.

So I think people are waking up, and reading books, listening to podcasts, the bio wearable revolution. But, yeah, I I I I think what we have is not sustainable by definition. Like like like, we're gonna cease to exist as a country, and I don't think that's too hyperbolic to say. Like, we all know about the health care cost curve that we but it's true. Like like, health care is the largest industry in The United States, and it's the fastest growing.

It will be 40% of GDP in, like, fifteen years and bankrupt our country. Like like, that is mathematically true, and it's not slowing down, and everyone's getting sicker. So it's just like it literally has to change or we're gonna cease to exist.

Yeah. And to your point, obesity is a visual representation of what's going on. So if seventy percent of Americans are overweight or obese, regardless, you know, I think a lot of people, they might not necessarily know how to correct that, but they at least realize, okay. Some shit is wrong. This is this is not how we should be living.

Even with children, I think it's forty percent of kids are overweight or obese, and now one in ten have fatty liver disease. So even if you don't necessarily know the right diet to correct it or understand how to eat real foods, I to your point, it's like you'd think the average person is like, okay. This is not right. Why is everyone fat?

If you are obese if someone is obese, they're gonna live a shorter life. They're gonna have more chronic conditions. They're gonna be much highly receptive to depression. Why is that? Because it is a visual visual representation of metabolic dysfunction.

It is a symptom. It is it is literally, right, our cells are overwhelmed with glucose, with sugar, with processed grains. The mitochondria can't process it, kicks it out, and the sugar turns into fat. But that that that that excess blood sugar also goes other places. It goes to the liver, you know, goes to the brain.

It actually causes a lot of, like, organ dysfunction. So the fact that, you know, obesity that that's one of the least concerning symptoms. I mean, this is causing fifteen percent of kids to have fatty liver disease. That used to be a disease only for alcoholics.

Fifteen percent?

Fifteen percent of children, according to the CDC.

Yeah. So, so so so so yeah. What I think is really nefarious and gets to kind of the playbook I saw earlier in my career is that you have Nestle and the the American Beverage Association and other front groups paying TikTok influencers, you know, body positivity influencers, you know, to do this gaslighting that, you know, healthy at any size. And then you have, you know, sixty minutes, the most watched news program in The United States, which is relies on more than 50% of their ad funding for pharma, runs a segment with pharma ads before and after the segment sponsored by Pfizer saying that obesity is a genetic condition even though it's a new phenomenon in the past fifty years. It it is absolutely insane.

It's not listen. Let let's be very clear. I'm a free market guy. I'm a personal choice guy. I don't think what's happening is personal choice.

I don't think it's lazy Americans. I think the fact that eighty percent of Americans are overweight, they don't want to be overweight. No. I've struggled. Like like like we all it's like it is a systemic problem that we need to call out.

And I think what we need to do, you know, is rally around that. Our system's being rigged against us. It's not about people being lazy. We need to think about changing the system.

What do you think about people who are would hear this conversation and be like, this all sounds pretty conspiratorial. But there's so much evidence to just say just to I mean, to basically place out a great argument why, yeah, the conspiracy is is basically us saying the system now has 93% of people. And and the system what I mean is, like, obviously, people have their own choice, but the system itself is driving a lot of these incentives. So 93 of people are metabolically dysfunctional. Like, that's not really a conspiracy theory.

That's not really up for debate.

Yeah. I mean, I do I urge people to just follow the money and use common sense. I'd say that, you know, hopefully, these stories about weaponizing institution of trust are resonant.

Yeah. Let's not talk conspiracies. Let's just talk facts.

You know, I'll I'll say one fact, and I think this is empirically true. The medicalization of chronic conditions in the past fifty years has been an absolute cataclysm. Like, the purpose of chronic disease treatment should be to lower rates of those chronic diseases. What has happened? We prescribe more statins.

Heart disease explodes. We prescribe more metformin. The rates of diabetes has gone up seven hundred x in a generation and a half. We prescribe more SSRIs. Depression and suicide is off the charts.

You does anyone think that this new obesity, this miracle obesity cure, which by the way, if you go off weekly injections, you double your weight. You you you gain more weight than you once had, and it causes a million other side effects. Does anyone think long term that's gonna that that hack is gonna lower obesity in this country? Like like like like the record it's not conspiratorial. The record of chronic disease management in this country has been an absolute failure.

In in most other industries, right, in most other industries, you know, higher costs, are this is what I'm trying to say. In health care, higher costs have been associated with worse outcomes. The more we spend, the worse the outcomes go. That makes sense? Right.

And and in most industries, you don't stand for that. But in health care, it's it's, it's bankrupting us.

Cali, I can't help when you're speaking to but to think about my dad during this conversation. He's 59, generally healthy guy, played college baseball. But I think he would tell you, you know, he's like, hey. I think I could probably lose, like, 20 pounds. He's on a statin, and I think about and I can and I know for a fact that he just eats too many carbs, too much sugar, breads, pastas, all that stuff.

And I think he's very interest he's very interested in a lot of the stuff that we're doing and talking about. He would like to experiment on a carnivore diet or a low carb diet, but he's so worried about his LDL cholesterol, and he's on a statin. So I just think about how many Americans there are like him that would maybe wanna go down the alternative health rabbit hole, but are so worried about this one metric, this one LDL number when there's so many other things that are even more indicative of of your actual health, whether it's waist size, resting blood sugar, some of the other things that you'd mentioned. It's just I don't know. It's just interesting to think about.

Well, it's been weaponized in that respect. Right? We've, we've obsessed people over this one metric for, you know, heart conditions and cardiovascular, which is which I'm sure you guys have covered is really you know, a lot of the way we think about, cholesterol is totally off. Right? And it's just it's just wrong.

But it's it's really scary. I totally get that. To, like, go outside what the doctor's saying, it's like you're at risk of, you know, having some cardiovascular issue. It's really scary. Again, going back to being inspired by my mom in her final years and and, things like things like that, I I I think there's real value, and it seems like your dad's on this, and being curious, and pulling pulling the strings.

And, you know, that could lead you to books on functional medicine, and it could lead you to books by doctors who've spoken out. It can lead you to podcasts. You know, on the systemic issues, Mark Hyman's really inspired me. You know, Andrew Huberman's doing a lot these days. And you and you can agree or disagree with with different people.

I'm sure you guys do. But but but then it might lead you to him to a functional medicine doctor, and, to get a different opinion. That functional medicine doctor might, and I'd highly recommend to everyone to do this. You're right. If you if especially if you're really facing some some imminent or or concerning issues, like, really go go to functional medicine doctor.

It's a couple hundred bucks, and you can get really, really in-depth lab tests that really break down your different cholesterol levels and help you understand them better. And And then you can make your own decision. But but I would just say this idea that breaking outside of the current system with, you know, heart disease exploding and all these I I think it's less risky than you might think because it's really not working what's happening right now. One of

the things that saddens me about this whole conversation is you mentioned the date 1970, which is when the guidelines around nutrition came out. And that's really when we saw, like, a massive rise in a lot of highly processed products getting marketed to all sorts of people, but specifically kids. And one of the things we talk about is just, like, the predatory nature of a lot of this marketing that gets thrown in front of kids' face. Like, they're not even seeing real food on any of the programming that they're seeing. They're seeing highly processed garbage that shouldn't even be put in their body, but these companies are still able to do it.

Yeah.

I mean, it's it's pretty shameful when you look at Viacom, how much they've lobbied the FTC to keep those ads up there. When you look at the percentage of advertisements on kids' networks, that's food. It's, like, off the charts. And, again, it sounds corny. I mean, I I was going on you know, I'm just on vacation in Santa Fe.

Do that tweet, and, Tucker Carlson's producer DMs me on Twitter. I'm on Tucker that night, the most watched new show, you know, kinda controversial, but, you know, I really felt strongly to do it to get this try to get this message out to the largest audience in cable. I was you know, it was very all very quick. I was a little nervous, and I literally was just, like, wrote down my son's name on on a piece of paper. And and, and I I I I wanna just stay grounded in that as we build this company and, like, Justin, who you guys know, and me try to communicate this.

You know, it's not about dunking on food companies. Like, kids are on the chopping block. Mhmm. Like like, there's dollar signs on their heads. I mean, you know, we advertise this addictive food, the most well meaning parents.

Right? They're trying to buy there's these snuck processed grains. This as they sneak the sugar in, they get addicted. If you guys if they give any of us highly addictive drugs every single more, we're gonna get addicted. Like like,

there's not like you know, but you look at kids at a birthday party, you know, three year olds with a with a cake, it'll they look like

a bunch of meth addicts. Yeah. I understand.

And they basically essentially are the same dopamine dynamics are going on in their brain. So I think it's, like, tragic. And then and then their bodies and their cells are out of control. And then we're telling them to take SSRIs. We're telling them to take Ozempic.

We're telling them to take Adderall. It's like it really is, like, just it's like violence to these kids.

And we're almost moving into, like, the third generation. You know, we're, like, fifty years removed from those guidelines being put in place, and we're almost, like, through the third generation into that, which I think, like, plays into how this whole thing unfolds to the point where we're at ninety three percent of people being metabolically unhealthy. Mhmm.

Yeah. I mean, you guys talk about being despondent or being you know, I think this is a good question, a good frame you know, and I'll just tell my my thought on it because it is very depressing. I think I mentioned to you guys, I'm I'm helping my sister, Casey Means, write a book, and we're writing a book about these concepts. It's gonna be published by Penguin, hopefully next year. Books take a while.

But our first draft was very pessimistic, and in kind of a diatribe. And our our agent who is great was like, Americans don't wanna hear this. And he kinda challenges. He's like, is this even true? Like, you guys are writing a book.

People are waking up. And, actually, like, through that advice, but also just through thinking about this last year, it is really tragic. I think it's an existential issue. We need to get it right. We're gonna cease to exist in the country if we let all of our kids, you know, just as you said, it's, like, generational.

And then, you know, if most of the country has these issues, it's just gonna keep going. But I think there's room for optimism. I really do. Like, we're sitting here talking about it. You guys are devoting your lives to it.

You know, Justin and I are trying to do that. Like, I'm meeting so many interesting people. So I I think that's one strength of our system is, like, we have openness. We're able to talk about it. We're able to to to to dunk on institutions, and and people can make up their own mind.

So so I think people are waking up, but we've gotta it's gotta be gotta increase the momentum.

Yeah. It's tragic, but we could definitely pull back from the brink. Like, even just your tweet going so viral, how can you not be optimistic about that? Tucker Carlson getting you on a show to be able to discuss topics like this. These are big steps in the right direction.

Even threads that we've written, it's like people have an appetite for this stuff, which is amazing. And it goes back to what you were saying. It's like curiosity is the first step to be able to actually have change in this space.

Your guys' threads have had a huge impact on me, and and I just, you know, have helped push me, you know, you guys being out there in the arena to to help talk about this and, and share share perspectives. You know, and and Tucker's kinda controversial, but I feel so grateful, you know, that you know, and kinda surprised that, you know, I never thought nutrition would be such a resonant issue on the right. It's kind of been an issue on the left, but, like, I am very happy, that I was able to do that, and they've been covering that every single night to their credit. I mean, food companies and pharma companies spend a lot on news programs. And, there seems to be something resonating on a bipartisan way on this rigged food system nutrition issue.

Yeah. So I think it's really important and admirable that both the right and the left are talking about this because because something off is happening.

I think, like, these crises kind of breed missionaries, which missionaries are unwavering in their belief and to make, you know, their life's work come, like, come to fruition. And I think that that sort of power is kinda what we need to reverse all these numbers, and and I totally believe we can do it. I think, like, the human spirit is something that, like, as soon as enough people get involved, like, that's when the party happens and people start feeling good about being healthier and and actually, like, the positive change that can happen with just a few like, imagine if we back that number off 93% down to, like, 80%, seventy % over the next, decade or or handful of decades through these technologies and information that's being shared, I mean, that would be amazing. I think that would unlock a lot of, amazing human ingenuity.

%. And I'm I'm particularly passionate, and have hope, but but also fear for for kids, as I said. But, I think the highest leverage point I think a lot of parents are looking for answers here, but a high leverage point, is kids. I mean, I think it's crazy. Right?

It's like, you know, kids are born metabolic dysfunctional. The kids are born metabolic dysfunctional. You know? My sister and I were born twelve pounds. You know, my sister had a bunch of ear infections and was pounded with antibiotics, by the time she was two.

And a lot of kids are like that too. So you you're born metabolically dysfunctional, you know, overweight, you know, pounded with antibiotics, like, destroying your microbiome, you know, eating inflammatory foods, you know, not getting sunlight, which is essential. Right? You know, not getting as much movement as you should. It's like it's like I hate to say it, and it and it's kind of taboo to say this, but that is really setting, you know, kids up for lack of success.

You know, it's very important those first couple years. So I'm passionate about that, and I think a lot of parents are looking for answers. And I think it's very positive for parents to be questioning significantly what the American Academy of Pediatrics is saying and and kinda conventional wisdom. I I I personally think there's there's just no reason whatsoever for a child, you know you know, who's who's one, two, you know, but when you're really controlling what they're eating to be eating any sugar, processed grains, or inflammatory oils, which is what most children's food is is is loaded with. It's it's just like it's it's unconscionable to me.

Mhmm. Yeah.

It it's such an important point to what you're saying because I do think that there there is a misconception or a lack of knowledge with parents that they don't understand that them not taking care of themselves is actually affecting the genetics of their child. Right? I think that there are a lot of people that think, okay. Even if I don't take care of myself, I'm not gonna pass any of that on to my children, and that's completely not the case at all. I forget.

I think Rhonda Patrick shared some study on Twitter. I don't you might know what the study is called where she kind of unpacks all of that. I remember thinking to myself, I'm like, imagine if you could really spread this message and people understood that taking care of themselves is gonna create a healthier child and what that would do to parents.

Well, that message isn't gonna be spread because, because there's a highly competitive market in birth, you know, birthing places and hospitals, and it's all based on patient satisfaction. So we actually had a conversation with with a with a a nurse at a at a at a leading hospital in in Phoenix, and and she said, you know, the vast majority of moms are are are, you know, obese. And and, no. They would never say anything like that. That would be, you know, there would be a TikTok about fat shaming.

So so some of these messages can't get out. And and, again, we need to be very clear here. I really don't think this is actually and I've grown on this. Like, it's it's we shouldn't see this as an individual failing. This is systemically happening.

It's a systemic failing, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it or explore. And I think a lot of people that are overweight are dealing with metabolic dysfunction. I I've had, you know, health issues based on my own, you know, behavior. Right? It's like we all do.

It's like that I I think most of them still wanna talk about it. I I think most people that are overweight actually wanna, like, be healthy. They wanna, like, have their kids be healthy, but we've totally stunted debate on this. And, again, I think just just learning from my sister, doctors are are rated. Right?

Like like, after you talk to a patient, like, they take a survey and then doctors are reprimanded if they get bad grades. So there's this incentive to not really challenge the patient. It's, like, totally a perverse incentives.

Mhmm.

So that message isn't really getting out. But, yeah, it's leading to metabolic dysfunction in utero, and and setting kids up not for success.

We had a a guy, Mike Collins, on our podcast, and he's known as the sugar free man. And he was really interesting because he took prenatal nutrition very seriously with his wife after he he battled addiction, like, his entire life with sugar and other things. And he noticed that his kids, after really being mindful about how much sugar his wife was eating, how much sugar he was eating when they were conceiving, And he noticed his kids just were not that susceptible to all the different dopamine. And, obviously, some of that is from the parenting, but they weren't as susceptible to all the different dopamine hits that you can get nowadays, which is, I think, part of the problem. Like, dopamine overload is just everywhere.

It's, it's a huge problem. And, and I think you have an ability in those early years when the brain you do dive into the research in the brain, how malleable it is. And I think it's, you know, it's the basis of psychology, how much is really hardwired into, you know, a child in those first couple years. Again, it's not to sound too morbid and and things are reversible, but, like, that leverage of those first couple years of of of hardwiring those and I link you you you can link it really to a lot of things. It's like, really, that the key mechanism is dopamine.

I think the child's brain is is being assaulted from all angles. And I really put the sugar in the same vein as the chronic stress driven by social media, you know, to even like porn. I mean, you know, again, like, all these things, like it's not like we should ban them. It's not like they're, like, a %. But we should just be aware.

I wrote this one thing, formulation I have is that, you know, we're all on drugs. Like like, we really, like, live our lives, like like, going from dopamine hit to dopamine hit, from a coffee, you know, to an Adderall. There's 17 prescriptions per adult, in The United States prescribed per year, you know, to, you know, many people take opioids, to beer, to porn, to social media. It's we're really, like, going from dopamine hit to dopamine hit. And I think, really, like, what we're told is a good drug and a bad drug is, like, actually, in many ways, backwards.

Like like Adderall, this crazy book blitzed. You guys it's just like it's just like this is like that was a less effective form of Adderall that the Nazis created to make German soldiers, like, fight longer, and they discontinued it because it made them psychotic. And then we took a stronger version, and now that's what fifteen percent of kids take. So it's just like and it's one molecule away from crystal meth. So it's like, okay.

That's like making people more attractive. Then 25% of the American population is on an SSRI, which, again, friends take them, family take it's just like they do numb you. Right? They're numbing it. So we have a numbing agents.

We have we have aggressive drugs. We have alcohol numb you out. And then the drugs that are totally stigmatized, like MDMA and psilocybin, there's research showing that they're the most highly effective substances or interventions ever studied to reverse depression, increase empathy, you know, very low side effects, you know, to get people tuned in to their self actualization and their trauma and really come to terms with that. So that substance is banned, and we have, you know, opioids and, alcohol. So so I actually don't I I don't think drugs are in and of themselves sort of even bad.

I just think that this is one thing I'm gonna try to teach my son is, like, understanding your dopamine response is probably the most important thing you can do as a human. Like, just understanding that's what drives us. Totally. And, I love like, I I've met I love drinking, like, sometimes. Like, I met my wife on when we were drinking.

Like, I've had some of the best, like, bonding experience with my friends. Like but it's just, like, let's be aware. Just be aware. Like like, every there's so many drugs out there that aren't labeled as drugs, and we just you know, I think going down that rabbit hole is very important for everyone to understand. Mhmm.

And you understand your relationship to alcohol too, which is a really important thing. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. Exact yeah. Just being thoughtful about it. Being thoughtful that, and not take society's definition of drugs.

It's just like it's it's pretty much backwards.

A %.

It's pretty much backwards when you think about it. Yeah. And our food has been drugged, which literally. I mean, sugar is the I believe sugar is the worst drug because just because it doesn't cause you to be, like, incredibly high, like, I mean, it the the fact that it's more subtle actually makes it more dangerous. I actually think there is a lot of data that sugar is the most destructive drug in the country because it's really subtle, but it's very addictive, and it's it's in food.

So Yeah. We we live in a world where we've normalized giving our kids Goldfish crackers and pop tarts before class. They can't pay attention, and then you get them on Adderall, and then it's just the whole merry-go-round for the rest of their lives.

That's right.

I'm 28. Harry's 20 nine. So we're kind of in that generation where we had friends that started going on these drugs when they were 10, 12 years old, and and now they have an inability to be able to perform any type of work without taking a drug like that. It's so hardwired into their behavior.

Right. It's crazy.

It's crazy.

One of the things you mentioned earlier was kind of the, the research behind a lot of these medical institutions. And a lot of those studies, like, if you look at a graph at the amount of studies that have been put out recently, it's exponential growth. Literally an exponential growth curve for the amount of studies, which is curious to me. Like, why are we producing all these studies? What's what's happening?

And and, I think it goes back to a lot of what you were talking about earlier. And you kinda pinpointed the medical institutions as really, like, the problem of a lot of this. So I'm curious, like, what's driving a lot of those researchers research studies from your perspective?

Corruption. You know, going back to what I saw with Coke and pharma, there are you know, pharma just on lobbying spends 350 or so million dollars a year, three times more than any other industry, you know, multiples more than oil. And there are people sitting around very strategically thinking about how to hijack levers of trust and and institutions of trust. And we still fall for this game where if the news reports a peer reviewed study, that we all say that's unimpeachable, and that's good. I think it is personal.

I I this is my personal opinion digging into this. I think it is absurd that there are hundreds of nutrition schools and millions and millions of dollars spent on nutrition research that's almost entirely funded by corporate interests, right, to, like, argue some, like, niche to get processed food sold. It's like, don't eat added sugar. Don't eat seed oils. Don't eat highly processed grains.

I think that's a start, like, to, like Mhmm. Getting you towards. And then, you know, that basically gets you to Whole Foods. Yeah. And then for me, I don't know how you guys feel about this, but, like, you know, I I think, you know, the true, like, thoughtful carnivore folks, you know, are to me, actually, the the concentric circles overlap a lot with, like, good, even plant based.

And because it's like it's like hunt for the right nutrients. Like like, hunt for like, don't eat processed crap, hunt for the right nutrients. It's like it's it's about, like, the substance of the food.

Nutrient density. It's about

the nutrient. Yeah. And I I think I think you guys make a lot of good points on that. It's just but it's just, like, forget even I I think even some some of the debates about dietary philosophies will be it's like search like, food is information. Yeah.

It's like giving ourselves information.

Totally.

It's like and, you know, you can kinda just trace evolution of, like, what people used to eat, like, what our body evolution and it's just like, it's actually not that complicated. If you go on that journey and and just cut cut these highly inflammatory process of green taters. So so I don't understand what the billions of dollars is going into other than just rigging the system, producing studies from Harvard saying that sugar doesn't cause obesity. I mean, it's just absurd on its face. And then I think we've really lost our way on the drug thing.

I mean, I think I think it's just like this giddy excitement. You know, the the the JPMorgan conference, the big health care conference, what was it, this week or last week, they were giddily. I mean, it was the videos from this they were giddy with excitement about the secular trends on Alzheimer's, on obesity,

on diet.

It was it was like it was like hooray. It was cheering. Everyone in that conference was talking about how we're gonna weather through this recession because our trends are good. Now one person's talking about what's actually causing this. It's just it's just it's just all these little treatments, all this little research.

And then the problem is that health care is the largest industry in the country. So the majority of US states, the largest employer of those states is a is a hospital. Mhmm. So, unfortunately, that's able to buy off politicians because it's jobs, jobs, jobs. So so, you know, I was in, Texas recently, hearing, the governor of Texas who who's done some good things, but he he was talking.

And he was bragging that the Texas Medical Center in Houston could be seen from space. And how many jobs that created? That's not a good thing. No.

It's not a good thing that

we need hospitals that can be seen from space. That's not innovation. But but it's good, you know, that even conservatives are like, oh, it's jobs. But, like, there's some it it's it's the system. It's not good.

I love

what you were saying earlier about carnivore. And that was actually one of the questions I had for you is how you and your sister think about, like, the power of anecdote versus a peer reviewed study. Because I think a lot about, you know, what's made carnivore such an effective thing is it's given people the ability to connect and realize, hey. Look. There's twenty five million people in The US right now that suffer from an autoimmune disease.

Yet a lot of these things a lot of these diseases are effectively healing. The incurable is becoming curable through nourishing your body from animal fats. But a lot of us are finding out about this diet, not from a peer reviewed study. They're finding out about it from Instagram, from YouTube, from connecting with someone else that suffered from IBS and tried this diet, and it worked really well for them. So I'm just curious, especially with you and your sister's perspective, like, how do you think about the power of anecdote versus a peer reviewed study?

I mean, I'll just say this. I think the most important scientific thinker in The United States, and I would say the greatest defender of the scientific method is Joe Rogan. And I'll just say that. I mean, I'm a dude, and and like Joe Rogan, that might be expected. But, like, that man is asking questions.

That man is, like, exhibiting the scientific method Yeah. Like, in a very public form. And I think this has been a journey I've been on. Right? But it's just like, you can ask questions.

Like, you can figure out what makes sense or what doesn't make sense. You know, if you see a study from Harvard that says sugar doesn't cause obesity, you're able to question that. That study was jammed down our throats and led to twenty five percent childhood obesity or just excuse me. Childhood prediabetes. Like like like, we've got to question institutions.

And I can tell you again from from being in the room with Coke, from having a little bit of insight into these, academic institutions, some of them, ARPR entities for special interests. Like, they don't convince themselves of that, but the money is being paid for something. The billions of dollars of money is being paid for something. So so yeah, man. Like like like like, I think we could just ask our own quest and I don't think it's like, you you get gaslit to say it's dangerous to go outside the system.

And I just I just think we, that this wave of influencers, what you guys are doing, you know, up up to up to Joe Rogan, up to, you know, doctors, who are who are doing podcasts and kinda question the system. I think it's much more powerful and having much more impact than, than a lot of peer reviewed research. And I think if there's one one of the lessons I hope people take away and and is don't trust peer reviewed research.

Yes.

What a terrible precedent to set too. Like, no. No. No. You can't figure this out for yourself.

That's what people are being told.

Come on. Where have you found yourself changing your thinking around some of these topics going down this rabbit hole?

Oh, yeah. I mean, I grew up, you know, I think I'm a free market guy. I'm a libertarian. And I think the conservative side has been gaslit to think that questioning pharma companies or questioning processed food companies is anti free market.

Mhmm.

And what what a big transition from so I used to be a big defender of medical innovation and a big defender of, like, the, you know, genius of the American food system. And I I was very, like, pro, like you know, I consider myself pro corporation. Right? But you don't have a free market if the free market is rigged. And that's been a big eye opener for me.

It is absolute weaponization of conservative principles to defend Coke when they've rigged the system tens of billions of dollars. Like, that's delegitimizing the system. And I think, you know, again, this this issue very much supersedes politics. It's like, it's really truly not partisan. It's like the system is just being rigged by corporate interest.

And, unfortunately, those corporate interest are paying off institutions on the left and the right, including prominent civil rights groups, you know, to to achieve the the end result is evil. It's it's diabetic children. So so that's been a big thing for me, just just really we do really have a rigged system and, and being much more skeptical of companies. Now, again, Coke should exist. I I think most drugs should be legal.

I don't think most of them should be subsidized with US, you know, tens of billions of dollars of of medical. The the other thing I just say real quick is just, my framework has always been, like, public policy. What's the highest leverage public policy? And I've been, you know, always involved in the latest political debate in Washington, the latest hot topic. I think we're being totally distracted.

I think there's a first order issue right now, which we're exponentially getting sicker, fatter, more depressed, more infertile. And I think we're really being distracted from that issue. When you think about public policy, when you think about the happiness of Americans and the the human capital of Americans, if their brain cells are literally malfunctioning, which is what diabetes is, that's a problem. That's a first order issue. It's like, if we solve that, we're gonna have our human capital being happy or making better decisions.

So to me, it's it's kind of obvious now, but it's like, it took me a while to get there.

I know that you mentioned that you appeared on Tucker Carlson. Mhmm. Are you seeing interest from conservative and liberal news outlets, or is it more weighted in one direction than the other?

Yeah. I'm blown away, honestly, because because I really do to me, this this what what excites me about and and why I wanna devote my life to this is it crosses partisan lines. It really isn't a partisan issue. It's like, you know, I tweeted about, the fact that we subsidized $10,000,000,000 of sugary drinks for low income children, it's it's it's truly it's truly heartbreaking. Like, it's like most people I think would agree with that.

The Tucker and a lot of the conservative outlets have picked it up, and it's been very surprising because nutrition generally has

been associated with an issue of the left. I think, viewers and and people from both sides are very frustrated with what's happening, with the rig system and and looking at their kids. And, the mainstream outlets haven't picked it up as much. There's been a lot of reports talking about food and pharma being the two largest funders of news. Mhmm.

But I wanna carry this message anywhere, but, like, it is it is interesting, and I I think it's undeniable that, traditional media that depends on advertising dollars from large organizations, which inevitably falls to pharma, that influences editorial decision making. Mhmm.

This is a pure observation, but what I will tell you is that when I look at our largest followers on Twitter that have a million plus accounts, they're all conservatives. And so I'm just gonna Interesting. I just it's interesting is and I haven't seen the same from the left. So I don't know why that is, but that's just an observation with with my Twitter account.

I think we speak for both people that we I think all feel very passionate about this issue. And I I I think I think it's double edged. I think in some degree, it's great that this message is getting out to all communities, especially communities you might not have heard at conservative communities. And secondly, I I mean, my personal opinion is the debate's been weaponized a little bit. I mean, I think I think for some reason, it's become a political virtue in some circles to blindly trust pharmaceutical companies, which I think they deserve none.

And then I think that the same kind of tactics I'm talking about have been used very successfully, you know, to advance this healthy at any size movement and advance this idea that it's not appropriate to talk about obesity really, which I think is only hurting, people.

It really feels like a lot of there's a lot of political theater out there, and health should be an apolitical topic. Right? Like, I don't care where you stand on certain issues, but health is one where it's like, yeah, everyone should be as healthy as they can possibly be.

Yeah. I think I think one of the political calculations, potentially, is that the majority of people are obese. So there's the voters, so we might as well cater to that.

Amen.

I think I think that that's a mistake, and I think it's it's wrong. Because I I think most people actually do wanna be healthy and, you know, wanna be there for, you know, milestones for their kids and grandkids. So, and just just mathematically and just actually, like like Ozempic is not going to, almost guarantee you, affect life expectancy that much. Yeah. But it's it's like it's like obesity again.

It's like it's like a sign that there's a problem. Mhmm. It's like, you you know, we're writing about this a little bit in the book, but, like, you know, my mom, like most Americans, right, you know, in the past thirty years has, you know, had high cholesterol statin, high high, you know, elevated glute, glucose, metformin, etcetera etcetera, like most Americans, like like these drugs are prescribed like candy. Not once is it like, hey. This is a, you know, gestational diabetes on down.

Never is it this is a potential warning sign. You know, this is a this is gonna keep cascading up to cancer, up to Alzheimer's. Nowhere was was she told her her patients told, hey. Like like, these are these actually should be, like, welcome. Like like, these should be, like, you know, a child child obesity, it's like, oh, let let's get this under control.

Because if you don't get the core down, it's just not gonna work. So so it's really kind of cruel what we're doing.

Yeah. I think when all is said and done, we will look back on big sugar, like, we look back on big tobacco. And, like, if you have a friend that's a smoker, like, if I have a buddy that's smoking a cigarette, I would literally just be like, you're you're a moron.

Why are you

you know what's gonna cause cancer. Right. And it's like, in theory, if, like, if you have a friend that's overweight or obese, it's like, you just feel like you can't say that same thing to them. Like, you can't just be like, dude, put down the burger. You're literally killing yourself.

Or put down the sugar. You're killing yourself. It's like there's just so much it's it's a very difficult issue because there's a lot of emotion around weight, and you want them to be healthy. And these people do wanna be healthy. But at the same time, you know being healthy that if they eat like this, they are gonna kill themselves.

So you don't know you know, it's it's a very it's a very touchy thing is my point.

%. Hundred %. But, yeah, we're chipping away. I see myself as a foot soldier, with a fight with you guys and, thousands of other people, I think, who we respect. And,

and that's how you have societal change.

I I think I think time is of the essence, but, but I I do hope again, before we even talk about any type of bans or taxes, I don't think we even need like, let's just stop subsidizing this crap. Yes. Let's start stop subsidizing tens of billions of dollars of grain subsidies, food stamps. Let's, let's potentially use the valid legal and congressional investigation channels to determine whether these companies have knowingly, you know, misled or inflicted knowing damage on the American people. And let's you know, I I really do hope Coke through through free market, tools, becomes like a cigarette.

Where are you seeing sort of optimism in the world? Because it is just it seems like there's so much negative news out there.

Yeah. I mean, as I said, I I mean, I get a lot of I get a lot of energy from honestly, I I I I think the podcast, what's happening right now is a revolution in the country. I think it's one of the most historical trends of free thinkers out there talking. I think personally, I think Joe Rogan is probably the historical figure of our time right now. You know, most popular listened to program of somebody independent thinking, you know, taking mushrooms and and trying to explore the world.

I mean, I I think it's actually I actually think it's very inspiring. You know, talking about how to be a better person, how to have better habits, and then and then and then different forces are actually trying to, like, delegitimize and tear tear that down. It's it's to me, it's it's actually fascinating. And on down throughout the whole podcast ecosystem of people, I I think there's a lot of of critical thinking. And I think the fact that so many people are listening to podcast, it's it's that that actually gives me a lot of hope.

I mean, there's one policy area. You know, Justin and I are working on this company. We kinda asked this question. Justin Maris has been on your guys' program before, and I are working on this. But but I was despondent, you know, a year ago.

I was kinda, like, digging down this rabbit hole. I'm like, man, like, this is we're screwed. And then, met Justin who started Kettle and Fire, Perfect Keto, really tried to be part of the change on the food system, passed those companies off, was thinking about what to do next. And we just talked for months about the the question of how do you change incentives. And there's there's one thing we landed on, which is these HSA, FSA accounts.

So, there's a hundred and $40,000,000,000, and then most people have these accounts. You probably ignore them. Justin and I always just it's like, oh, that that's we're gonna get sick and lose if I don't get sick and I lose that money. What actually you could do with those accounts is buy food or exercise. Food or exercise is medicine, and you can use those accounts for qualified expenses that help you, prevent disease.

But it just requires a doctor's note to say food or exercise helps prevent disease. Wow. But, you know, most of us are at urgent need to prevent diabetes, heart disease, other metabolic conditions. So for qualified folks, we seamlessly provide that, and then you're able to actually buy food, at a tax advantage way, 40% savings, whatever your income tax is. So we're really excited about that.

And, you know, it's it's one tool. It's not the panacea, but, like, we we have to move policy to food as medicine. We have to be, like like like like like a piece of pasture raised, you know, high quality meat or, or, you know, depending on your philosophy, we can go into, you know, which which foods. But there there are nutrients and antioxidants in food that is unquestionably scientifically the best possible medicine to prevent or reverse disease, and it's totally within the fairway to prescribe that. So so that's one thing I'm just kind of optimistic on the next ten years.

I actually think mathematically we have to move to to more, using our health care systems to subsidize and promote food because we're just not gonna we talked about the math problem, how we're just gonna go bankrupt. We will not drug our way out of the situation. At one time or another, we're gonna have to realize that it's gonna have to be about food. And and public policy can incentivize the food. We we we say it's just inevitable that people are gonna make bad decisions.

That's ridiculous. Like, if we incentivize people to exercise, if we took the $4,000,000,000,000 that we spent on health care and asked Blue Sky how do we use that to incentivize healthy behaviors, healthy food,

we transform the country.

Like, we if we if we do that competently. So that's what I'm excited about in a trend, we're pursuing with this new company, True Medicine.

Beautiful. And with True Medicine, are you identifying what those healthy foods actually are that you can use your HSA dollars towards?

Yeah. You you know, this might be obvious to some people, but we have, you know, 5,000 peer reviewed studies on food as medicine. So for any condition you're trying to prevent or reverse, every single food we recommend is backed by multiple studies showing that the specific elements of those food, the antioxidants, the fiber, you know, the macronutrients, the micronutrients are scientifically proven to either prevent or reverse that condition. So the food is very much, and and then we have a clinical team. It's all, you know, walled off, and and doctors, you know, approve the patients and and then make the recommendations.

So these are medical plans. And then, you know, it kinda gets into an interesting discussion. Right? It's like depression. There's multiple studies showing that a hundred and fifty minutes of moderate exercise a week for three months is more effective than leading SSRI.

So we have that study. It's it's there's there's resounding science on that. And I know we've questioned studies before, and everyone needs to think critically about this stuff. But if we're going in the world of studies, it's very clear that exercise is a powerful medicine for depression and many other conditions as you guys know. And we have studies saying that.

So our doctors recommend that if necessary, and then you can purchase exercise or food or whatever is recommended that note tax free. So we're making that very seamless. Truomed.com is our is our site, and and we're gonna be launching in a couple months, really with the product aim and goal of making this as seamless as possible for qualified folks. But my my hope is, you know, for the community that really cares about it, I I I hopefully, you know, feel that that using your HSA, using these, you know, systems of the existing system to stay healthy is an act of a rebellion almost against the existing system. And, and it's gonna feel good.

We've been testing out. It feels good to use, you know, the these dollars that you're kind of, like, sitting there waiting to go to pharma, you know, to actually, like, on root cause solutions, to not just tackle one thing like diabetes, but actually to, like, improve you know, prevent that, but, like, improve your overall metabolic health too.

Do you guys see yourself working with companies like Levels to kinda, like, integrate different levels of information feedback with kind of the enabling of accessing those funds to make yourself better or healthier?

Yeah. I mean, for first, we, you know, hope to, save people money and and have Levels and Whoop and and other bio wearables as products because I I I think that actually qualifies as medicine. And and having that type of understanding of your metabolic health, it it it can help a lot of people and could count, potentially for this. But, yes, that's the vision of the company. So I think I think you can imagine in couple years, right, that you have an app and it ties all your biosensor data.

And we talked about this a little bit earlier, but, like, it knows how you're sleeping. It knows where your glucose is. It knows where your heart rate is. It knows what your recent blood tests were. It has data on what you're buying to eat, you know, how much you're exercising.

That that type of program could give really, personalized recommendations on, you know, food, exercise, sleep aids, sauna, cold plunge, things that truly improve metabolic health in a highly you know, may maybe even up to up to sparing amount of drugs. Like like like but that that program would have so much more rich information than and what we're doing, you know, we're we're getting, health information, to to to to tailor these these notes for food as medicine. We have some idea what you're purchasing. You know? And and, you know, ideally, we can, with the patient's consent, make you know, use that data to give really personalized.

But I think that's where bio wearables really need to go and where this it needs to connect to action. And that's the vision for our company is, like, this really is your is your ally in, recommending items. I I also think if you have that type of data, you could eventually get to the holy grail, which I think is, like, real analytics on when you're gonna get a chronic disease. Like, if you had an app that, like, with a 90% confidence interval said that you're gonna get heart disease in five years if you don't take these certain actions and you have a, you know, 0% if you take the it's like, that would be very and we could we could actually have that app where we actually, like, literally know, like, with high confidence intervals when we're gonna get, like, certain conditions. Because I think one of the big problems is these chronic conditions seem so far away, but, like, we're brewing that metabolic dysfunction right now.

Mhmm. I think a lot of what I take from our conversation today is we need to move quickly and act quickly, but it is possible to pull back from the brink through. And there are a lot of different levers that we can pull to be able to do that. But, you know, we're encouraged by getting to connect and have conversations with people like you and just people that like you that are spreading this message that's just so important, and it's encouraging to us. And we're just very appreciative of all the work that you're doing and also being willing to come and sit with us on the show.

It's been just such an eye opening conversation.

So appreciative of you guys, and thank you for carrying this message. And, this was great. Thanks. Thanks, Kylie.