#160: A Bold Return to Giving a Damn featuring Will Harris
Well, we're so excited to be here. I mean, we were saying before, as we walked in that it's almost better that we got a a second chance, a second bite at the apple of getting back to White Oak Pastures. We were supposed to do this in September and had to rush off the farm, which is never a good feeling, but it's great to be back and just excited to be able to have a conversation with you.
Will:It was good to have you all back. Thank you for coming.
Brett:Oh, it's amazing. And and we were saying too when we were staying here last night, there's a little book that you leave for guests, and we didn't realize that you and your wife had actually lived out in the pawn house as well in the seventies. Right?
Will:We did. We lived here in the same house before it was. We we've renovated it. It was, it was pretty rustic in the has been very kind.
Harry:Can can you, to I'm really interested in the history of this property and and how you guys got here. How did the the Harris family get here? Because it's such an amazing piece of land, and there's so many different types of animals. I think 10 different species of animals.
Will:At least. Yeah.
Harry:Yeah. And then everything yeah. All the wild, inhabitants as well. So, we would love to just hear a little bit about the backstory of of White Oak Pastures.
Will:Sure. So my great grandfather, James Edward Harris, was raised on a farm about 50 miles from here in Quitman County, Georgia. And I don't know too much about that era. But I do know that when the, war broke out in 1861, civil war, he was a senior at, Mercer University in Macon, Georgia. All male school at that time.
Will:27 people in his class, I'm told. So they quit school and formed a cavalry unit. And they thought they had a deal with the southern army like a band of brothers to be kept together. They thought the war would last six months and they'd be right back finishing their education. And, the deal they had, they thought they had usually be kept together.
Will:But when the when they were act deployed, the South had a ninety percent illiteracy rate Wow. And 27 college boys in one unit. So, you know, they they, just made them offices and dispersed them because they could read. They could read the orders when they came. Not that they had great leadership tendencies.
Will:They could read. So he fought the war as a cavalry captain. And now this part is what I've always been told. I've never seen it historically with family law is that at the end of the war, when the South, the the resources were depleted. Young officers were asked to provision their own units if they could financially do so.
Will:He had a a farm in Quitman County. So he mortgaged it and and, provisioned his own cavalry unit for the last months or so of the war, and he was to be paid back when the South won. Of course, it didn't work out like the brochure said. And, he was unable to pay the bank, so the bank took that far. He was fortunate.
Will:He had an uncle who's a medical doctor in Bluffton, which is about three miles that way, doctor Carter, who's started him over here on this farm financially. And, he farmed the land. And, my grandfather, Will car he was he that was James Edward Harris, my great grandfather. His son, my grandfather, Will Carter Harris, ran the farm and added to it. His son, my father, Will Bill Harris, added to it.
Will:I'm Will Harris, no middle initial. And, and I've added to it. So that's the that's the history.
Brett:Beautiful. And you went to the University of Georgia with the intention to go to school, and come back and run the farm. Is that correct? Correct.
Will:I didn't you know, growing up, I never wanted to do anything but run this farm. Mhmm. When my my friends wanted to be, firemen and baseball players and whatever else the boys won't be. I just won't come home run the farm. And I went to University of Georgia.
Will:I majored in animal science. Came back and joined my father who was a very, very industrial cattle and then successful. And, initially with him and later without him, I ran the farm very industrially for about twenty years.
Harry:Was what were those early conversations like between you and him about starting to change some of the practices? Because I think you've you've been, outspoken about kind of that transition and going from conventional to a more regenerative model, which we can dive into a little bit. But, I imagine those first few conversations with him were maybe a little bit contentious.
Will:No. Actually, we never had them. Right. He he would not have allowed it. My dad literally died of dementia.
Will:And, by the time I wanted to do it differently, he was not in the conversation. So and I I I I have no siblings, and my wife has never been active in the business. So I didn't have to convince anybody but me. Mhmm. And if I had, I probably couldn't have done it.
Will:Mhmm. Because I did because there was, you know, there's not much much compelling financial evidence that I it was the right thing to do. Mhmm. So that was very fortunate in that way.
Harry:What what convinced you to start having some of those thoughts around changing things?
Will:You know, it happened very organically. Let alone not not it's not very organically. My you know, I was I was financially successful, managing the farm industrially. And we weren't rich people, but we lived very comfortably. And I never lost money any year operating industrially.
Will:I I went back and I pay taxes every single year. But I was enjoying it less and less. You know, the the the things that were really cool to me when I was in my twenties and thirties were less cool to me in my forties. The, the use of pesticides, chemical fertilizers, some therapeutic antibiotics, hormone implants, steroid were increasingly, I was aware of the unintended consequences. I I I started looking past the short term initial benefit of using that technology It's it didn't like what I saw.
Will:The unintended consequences were very, you know, unseen, unnoticed consequences. It took a long time to say, this is it's not good. Mhmm.
Brett:I would imagine it's interesting being a farmer in 02/2022 because with the power of the Internet, there are so many other regenerative farms that you can discover and find out about and look to see the practices that they're implementing. Obviously, it wasn't the same way in the nineties. So I'm just curious. Did you come across any other farms that were doing things in a regenerative way? Or I don't know if there were any farms that served as an inspiration to you that this alternative way could could potentially be possible.
Will:The the you know, there were not. Because I didn't I mean, if there were well, in retrospect, I guess there was. I didn't know. You know, this is in the, in the mid nineties. You know, we didn't have Internet down here.
Brett:Mhmm.
Will:You know, if you didn't read it in the paper, you know, you you didn't know what was happening. And when I started doing this, I just assumed I was the only person doing it. I was not, but I thought I was. You know? My best friend was a guy named Gabe Brown from Bismarck, North Dakota.
Will:Great. And we talk and and he started doing the same thing I did about the same time I did within Bismarck, North Dakota. You know, it's the other side of the world. And, our our evolution is similar, but but different. But, it's it's very you know, today, we, we go to conferences.
Will:We see these 30 year old people talking about their journey and getting regenerative. I mean, we go, where the fuck was he at
Harry:night? Not born yet.
Will:In in the second grade. He's not born yet. But it's it's it's interesting. And there, you know, there are a lot of people making great progress with this today. And there were a few people making some progress twenty five years ago.
Will:We just didn't know each other, and there was no no way of really connecting, especially if you don't know they're out there.
Brett:%.
Harry:How, season to season, how did you guys start to realize that this was the right path? Because one of the things and I'm I'm no farmer, but making changes on a farm seems like it's probably a hard thing to do, especially over a long enough period of time. So how do you know you're making the right change?
Will:Very intuitive. Especially initially. Initially, it's intuitive. Let's do it like that. Sorry.
Will:You're you're right. Making a change in any established business is hard. I mean, it's it's working. Yeah. Leave it alone.
Will:Mhmm. So but, you the dissatisfaction of that system, that production system, caused me to want to make the changes. And the changes I made were basically giving up things I didn't like. I I never sat down and wrote up a plan of getting from there to here. That that didn't happen.
Will:And the reasons were not Yeah. You can bet that in 1995, a 40 year old Will Harris didn't walk outside and say, I believe the climate's changing. And I think I can help mitigate that. Yeah. That shit didn't I?
Will:Mm-mm. It wasn't like that. I just didn't like what I saw here on the ground. Mhmm. And it didn't it wasn't rocket science to figure out what was doing it.
Will:I mean, if it's something I don't like is happening here in this field and it's not like that overlying on those woods, What's the difference? Teenage, chemical fertilizer, pesticides. So give up the chemicals, chemical fertilizer, pesticides. You you can give out a you can give leave those signs. And when I did, throughout that policy, the hard part is when I did, there was like a withdrawal Mhmm.
Will:In which things aren't good and productivity fall. It it starts to come back up. Right. But it's a period of time. And when you're doing that period of time and you don't know, if all I knew is just gonna get worse and worse and worse, but it didn't.
Harry:Yeah.
Brett:And your dad has I think you'd said that your your father had interesting memories in the late forties, early fifties of these chemical fertilizer salesman that are coming out, and they would get people together in barbecues and try and get you all to believe that the synthetic route was the the route that you should be taking. Right?
Will:Yeah. Yeah. Which is exactly right. But they weren't they those guys weren't tricking anybody. Mhmm.
Will:I mean,
Will:it just looked great. I mean, it looked like like magic. You know, like magic. Right. And, who who who could not pile in on that?
Will:And virtually everybody did. There might have been a hole out somewhere. But pretty much the the entire food production system embraced those technologies that were magic in terms of production, but has such horrible unintended consequences that you couldn't see them.
Harry:Mhmm. So
Will:and then to even today, 95% of food in this country, maybe more, is produced industrially. Yeah. And, you know, the and now, we know about the unintended consequences. It's hard to make yourself see them. If that's what you do, you're the you're the hardest person to convince that something's wrong.
Will:It's the guy that's making us living at it.
Harry:Let's take a minute to talk about some of the sponsors and brands who support the show.
Will:What are you thinking?
Harry:I was thinking about Carnivore Bar. What what are your thoughts on Carnivore Bar?
Will:I mean, it's unbelievable. It's an unbelievable product. We were lucky enough to have the founder, Philip Meese, on the show a few months ago, and he was able to send us a bunch of product when we started the relationship and absolutely loved it. I mean, you know, it's a minimum ingredient product, beef, tallow, salt. And then they do have a honey flavored option as well, but it's so nice to have a bar that's, like, three to four ingredients.
Will:And, like, when you're following a carnivore diet, it's really tough to find products that are in line with that specific diet. You know?
Harry:Yeah. For me, it kinda hits, like, the holy trinity of what you're looking for when you're looking for food. So it's nutrient dense, it's convenient, and it tastes great. And as you said, most people who are trying to eat healthy, the convenience factor is kind of a a tough part. So just being able to have something you can grab on the go, know that you're gonna have that nutrition for the day.
Harry:It's huge. Yeah.
Will:And we we were lucky enough. We got to actually see their factory too in Missouri, and they're just doing things the right way. I love how they offer an option for, like, carnivore purists where it's just beef, tallow, salt. And then they also have an animal based option too if you do want a little bit of sweetness, a little bit of variety. They have a honey in that option.
Will:And they're just people that are doing things the right way. They're very mission focused. They're carnivores themselves, and, you know, we're always on the go. We're traveling. We've taken a bunch of flights together.
Will:To have a bar that has 30 grams of fat too, like, that's huge from an energy density standpoint. Right?
Harry:Yeah. He checks all the boxes or the company checks all the boxes, and I just think the fact that they're sourcing from
Will:a regenerative farm as well and Joyce Farms, just a win win. %. The Carnivore Bar. So we got the affiliate link, and then it's code mafia for 10% off.
Harry:And then another one of our sponsors, one of our favorite farms, Holy Cow, what what they're doing, at Holy Cow is is pretty remarkable. The relationships that they've built, in the industry and how long they've been doing the grass fed, grass finished regenerative model is really, innovative. They were one of the first people, to be doing that and supplying Whole Foods early on. Just a a great, community farm and also just product is something that speaks for itself.
Will:Yeah. I think number one to your point, Harry, they're just incredible people. We got to hear them speak at the beef initiative conference in Colorado. We had never met them before, but just hearing Warren's story where they were following a standard American diet, He had had a heart attack, and they were just looking for answers of, like, how can we actually get healthier? Do I need to be dependent on medication?
Will:And they started changing their diets to incorporating more animal foods, and he completely reversed those symptoms of his stroke. And now they're just doing things the right way. They're they're grass finishing their beef. They're incorporating incredible practices. They have great relationships with the animals, and they're very passionate about just, like, connecting directly with the customer and also educating their customer on grass finished beef.
Harry:Yeah. And I think the best part is too, they're shipping nationally and trying to reach a bigger audience. So being able to not only supply beef nationally, but also educate people on the the quality of good, clean, whole foods is just it's an incredible mission.
Will:How much do you love their beef bacon, by the way? I know that's your go to.
Harry:It's one of the best things I've ever tasted. It's that good. No. Honest to god, it's so good. Holy cow.
Harry:Yeah. One of the other farms that supports us is Perennial Pastures, another regenerative farm out of San Diego. Our experience with Kevin Munoz, the owner, we had him on the show, a young first generation rancher who's really empowered by this movement of regenerative agriculture and really wants to be a leader in the space. I think our conversation with him was so insightful just in terms of how mission focused he is and how he really thinks about his farm as a business and wanting it to be here fifty, a hundred years down the road even though he's just the first generation of it. And I think just being able to spend time with him out in San Diego is kind of the perfect indication of that where we got to go have a meal with him at his house, hang out with his wife and kids.
Harry:Like, what an amazing person, and I think his mission focus around raising really high quality beef and restoring nutrients to the soil is just one of one of those rare missions that I think everyone can get around.
Will:Yeah. He has such a commitment to really feeding the local community in San Diego in the San Diego County First and foremost, but he's also passionate about feeding the community around the country. So I know they've invested a lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of resources to being able to order beef in bulk on their website. So I now I know that they now offer quarter half whole cows directly directly off the website. They have that great ancestral blend ground beef product, so it actually has organ grinds mixed into the ground beef, so you're getting the benefits of, like, an ounce or so of organ meat.
Will:But because it's in the ground beef, you really can't taste it at all. And I think to your point, Harry, just an another amazing person, you know, he Kev was someone that he was following a paleo diet in college and started realizing, wow. When I nourish my body with real foods, I feel amazing. Had a really successful stint in tech, but realized that there was just something else that he was passionate about. So he's one of those rare cases where, you know, he put his money where his mouth is, and he's a first generation farmer just, you know, bootstrapping this thing, raising money, and just so passionate about feeding the community.
Will:Just an amazing guy.
Harry:Yeah. Absolutely. What are your thoughts on organ supplements, and what do you think about the company that supports our podcast, Optimal Carnivore?
Will:Such a good question, man. I think organ meat is something that's gained a ton of notoriety the last few years, and for good reason. I don't wanna speak for you, but I think both of us have had a ton of benefits just incorporating organ meats into our diet. I would say that, you know, we definitely prefer the raw source of organs where we'll just, you know, chop up some liver and some heart and, you know, there are different ways to prepare it. I think the raw source is the most nutrient dense, but, you know, we're fortunate that there are companies like Optimal Carnivore that exist that freeze dry organ capsules so you can actually take them on the go.
Will:You know, there there are a ton of times where we're traveling where we're not gonna have access to to raw organs, so we can just I can throw a little ziplock bag together of of optimal carnivore and be good to go. And I think six pills is an ounce of organs, which is, like, the daily recommended amount that will give you a lot of those really good quality vitamins in there. So that's kinda how I think we've been using it. What am I gonna miss anything there?
Harry:No. I I think that the fact that it it just makes organs accessible to people, and I think that organs are generally just a food group that are underutilized when it comes to eating nose to tail. And the nature's vitamin is a perfect name for these organ, foods. And I think a lot of people are pretty, you know, in the mainstream object to eating, organ meats. But when you put it in a pill form that's doesn't taste bad, it's convenient, you can put it in your backpack, It makes things a lot easier.
Harry:And I also think that just generally, these brands are optimal carnivores focused on making people healthier, which is just such a strong mission. And, you know, I think liver capsules is a great way to get people thinking about their health differently.
Will:A %. There's there's probably someone that's listening to this right now, and you're interested in organ meats, but the taste might make you a bit squeamish. You feel strange about eating raw foods. Maybe you cook liver and you don't like it. Maybe it has a metallic taste.
Will:I think that's also where the organ capsules play such a great role is that you're still getting that nutrient density, but you're getting it in a very convenient capsule like format, and it just takes away any of that squeamishness that you might have to the taste. It's, you know, it's just a great product. And, also, Richard, who runs Optimal Carnivore, you know, he's he's started listening to the show really early on, and he's built his own organ supply chain and is just doing things the right way and really trying to support the right people in the space. So just proud to be associated with them, honestly.
Harry:Yeah. Absolutely. Thanks for listening. Now we're gonna go back to the show. Yeah.
Harry:Yeah. It's it's hard to make a change if you're making money. And I think in other areas to not just farming, it's breaking these paradigms down and trying to recreate something different. It's it takes people like yourself and Gabe Brown, who I think have put out some of the best information on this stuff. I know your blog is a tremendous resource for people.
Harry:Gabe Brown's book, Dirt to Soil is Gabe is great. Gabe,
Will:he's my friend. But and and I I I tell him, he's he's the second best regenerative farmer I know. And and, honestly, pre pre empts me from saying but Gabe and but Gabe's fantastic. Couldn't be better. And he is so good at telling the story.
Will:Gabe is a born teacher. Yep. And he can just start here and just take it right on down the line in a manner where people who are not part of this industry can appreciate it and enjoy it. And I I that's that's that's not my skill set. You know, my my he's he's very linear in the way he thinks.
Will:I'm very, cyclical. You know, I'm I'm all over the board. I I, you know, I I I'm presenting is not my strong suit because I I go down a rabbit hole, and I I meant to tell you something, but I didn't. So I told you the other twice. Yeah.
Will:Because
Brett:you get passionate about it. Right.
Will:Right. Well, the passion is in both in both cases.
Harry:But your farm chores are some of the most educational and and I think well told stories. I know we did one in September. It was amazing just seeing you speak to what's happening on your property.
Will:I I I feel good about talking about what we do when I'm here doing it. Yeah. Not not not not not not so much PowerPoint. Yeah. Yeah.
Will:In fact, we, we formed a nonprofit last year. Five zero one c three called Center for Agricultural Resilience, CFAR, Center for Agricultural Resilience. And, I insisted on center because and we're not I'm not going to the Holiday Inn by the airport and teach people what we do. Yeah. You need to come here.
Will:I I won't be effective at the Holiday Inn by the airport. Right. I'm I I think I do a good job here where I can show you and discuss it with you. So that's that's my contribution to to help and move the needle.
Brett:I've heard you say before that everything you're doing at White Oak is your contribution to the local community feeding Bluffton, the neighboring counties, and that five zero one c that you'd mentioned, the Center for Agricultural Resilience, that's your contribution to create a system to maybe save the world ultimately. Yeah.
Will:And, you know, I I see so many people in this space who are frustrated and happy because they're trying to save the world. And I'm I'm the happiest man I know. Because I'm I'm not trying to save the world. I'm not saying white oak pastures. Now, if I can contribute to saving the world by showing people what we know, I'm happy to do that.
Will:We we we paid for the formation of that that nonprofit. That's my contribution towards helping other people. Mhmm. But I'm not going to a Holiday Inn by the airport.
Harry:Yeah. Do do you think there's further evolutions down this regenerative model for white oak to make? And I guess that question is kind of based out of, you know, we're all or we're all kinda learning this new model of agriculture, and you've been doing it for years. But are there other things that you're thinking about?
Will:Oh, hell. Yeah. I mean, we're not there. It's a journey. Right.
Will:And we're still figuring it out. You know, this week we call this biomimicry. The emulation of nature. And it is so imperfect. So imperfect.
Will:I mean, we get better and better at it. And I can tell year to year the things we've gotten better at. And and and I think that'll be true when my children and grandchildren are doing it.
Brett:What are the things that you think your farm does a very good job of, and what are the areas of improvement to Harry's point that you still think you guys could be getting better at over time?
Will:That's good. So three there are three things that we think we do well. Only three. Very limited. I'm a one trick pony.
Will:This is my trick. Yeah. You know, the the the regeneration of the land, which to me is the restarting of the cycles of nature is is one of the things. And that's, you know, the industrial agriculture breaks the cycles of nature. Regenerative land management restarts the cycles of nature.
Will:We can talk a lot about that. The next one is, animal welfare. You know, we, we do raise two species of livestock. But, you know, there's there's wildlife, there's bees, there are working animals, companion animals, owning on microbes in the soil. And all of these creatures have instinctive behaviors.
Will:And the linear industrial model breaks those the the animals it it does not allow the animal to express instinctive behaviors. So we think we're pretty good at that. You know, perfect. We're pretty good. And and those two, the land and the animals, that was very intentional.
Will:You know, we we I spent a lot of time. Later, we spent a lot of time studying what we were doing, what we ought to be doing, what we could be doing, and and really tried hard, you know, implemented things. Some worked, some didn't. What didn't work, we reimplemented. Maybe it worked.
Will:If not, we reimplemented. The third thing that we think we're good at is community building. And that's interesting to me in that we never intentionally worked on that. And we we worked on the land and the animals because that's that's what we thought we could make a contribution at. And in doing that, kinda looked up one day and said, damn.
Will:This is nice. The community is nice. You know, Bluffton, Georgia, in the middle which is in the middle of this farm, the very geographic center, was was a ghost town. I can tell you the story, but it had it was a thriving little, agricultural community, purely agrarian economy. From 1815 to that World War two period.
Will:Since then, it's just been in decline. And the reason is because this that centralized model makes, agrarian economies, small rural towns, irrelevant and economically irrelevant. So they starve financially. So by the time I started making my change, Bluffton was a ghost town. The only thing you could buy in Bluffton was a stamp.
Will:And there's you'd be damn careful when you went to buy the stamp because it post office wasn't open much. Today, it's it's a little destination. You you guys this was your second trip.
Harry:Absolutely. It's incredible.
Will:You know, it's not you know, Disney World does not have to worry about us. We'll they'll be fine. Yes. But people choose to come here. You know?
Will:And we and it's because White Oak Pastures made the town economically relevant again. When I was farming industrially, I had about three minimum wage employees, payroll about a thousand dollars a week. And today, we got a 80 something employees. Payrolls over a hundred thousand dollars a week. And a lot of those people are sophisticated people.
Will:I got employees. I pay more than I pay myself and my children. So they came here to work here Yeah.
Brett:For
Will:all skill set. Wow. And they needed a place to eat and sleep and play and drink and work and shop. And we provided it. And suddenly, it's a nice little town.
Harry:Do you think this system of reliance is kind of at the core of the community that you've built here? And I just ask that because it seems like it's this community is such a juxtaposition to what you see if you go to any real, like, urban or suburban area where people are really not as relying on each other in a a really close meaningful way.
Will:That's interesting. And reliance is not a word that I have used, but I get it. Mhmm. You know, it's a in my maybe not maybe the way I would say that is it's a real step backwards in sense of community. You know, I've you know, we've all heard people.
Will:You've probably experienced it. Hell, I've I've experienced it where you lived in in the city. Yeah. You didn't know who lived over there. You've been living here a long time.
Will:They've been living there a long time. You know what they look like. You know this, but here, we live together. We don't just live beside each other. So, I think that sense of community, comes from reliance is probably a good word.
Will:Comes from just interacting with each other, not just living beside each other Right. Or in spite of each other.
Harry:Right.
Brett:I mean, how special of a feeling is that for you just seeing everything that's happened to the town over the last thirty years since you've been implementing some of these changes?
Will:Well, the best part of it for me is it's it brought two of my three children back. Mhmm. And they had, between them, they've had five grandchildren through the sixth generation on the farm. And they wouldn't have come back here if it if we hadn't done things differently. I didn't I didn't do it for that purpose, but that's the greatest purpose it served.
Will:Yeah. You know, when my children my children call this to my attention, when they were growing up, they were just about the only children in Bluffton of that age. And today, all these people all all these young people got one or two or three children. You know? If not, there's still kids themselves, so they're out playing in there.
Harry:Do you ever think about what the community would look like if you had continued down that industrial path?
Will:Well, you can go see it. I mean, any of these little towns around here, you know, it's it's continued decline. Bluffton, Georgia, organized, the city. What what what's the right word? Organized, chartered city.
Harry:Yeah.
Will:East Of The Mississippi. 0 new housing starts from 1972 to 2016. What is that? Forty years or something years?
Harry:It's about.
Will:Incorporate is the word I
Brett:was with.
Will:I mean, incorporated city. East Of Mississippi. 0 new housing starts. I don't know how many houses were torn down during that period. And what happened was because there's no jobs, no economy, People move somewhere else, and the house sat there, and it would be inhabited by pool by some pool person that couldn't live anywhere else for the most part.
Will:Not %, but a huge percent. And they they live there. They would give me money to spend on the house. The house would become unlivable. It'd be torn down.
Will:So Bluffin is full of old house seats that that don't don't have houses anymore. In 2016, '2 of my directors built really nice homes in Bluffton. We bought a lot of houses in Bluffton and fixed them up. So this is this old this old town again.
Brett:It's incredible. I mean, it's something that we saw when we were because we were in Texas, so we made the road trip out here. So we drove through Mississippi, through Alabama, through Georgia, and that was one of the things that we were commenting on is that you would see these towns where the buildings were probably beautiful maybe twenty, thirty plus years ago, and they're they're now just dilapidated. And you you're saying that this has so much potential to be an incredible downtown or a community, but, like, probably through some of those practices, people have just left, and there's not much opportunity there anymore.
Will:And that is purely because I believe that I can tell you. That's purely a situation where the agrarian the more agrarian the economy was, the the greater the, failure of the economy. Uh-huh. Bluffton is an extreme example. Never had a railroad, never had a factory, never had a mill, Purely agrarian economy.
Will:Mhmm. So it was most devastating. But the spectrum goes, you know and and and I don't know of any of these agrarian economies that have gone into failure that came back because of agriculture. Some of them came back because of tourism or because of something. Mhmm.
Will:But, the girl that brought Bluffton to the party, which is farming, brought Bluffton back to the party. Mhmm. And that could happen there's nothing unique about us here. That could happen in every agricultural county in the country, and it should. It should be a a white oak pastures of some sort Mhmm.
Will:In every agricultural county in the country. Should be. You know, our model here is scalable only by being replicable. For us to scale up like a linear big ag, big food company Yeah. Is not in the cars.
Will:That's not that's not meant to be that way.
Brett:Yeah.
Will:It's cyclical, not linear. So it doesn't need to scale up. It needs to replicate. Mhmm.
Brett:Part of the reason why both Harry and I have been asking you questions about community is we have an interesting almost, almost like an opposite perspective where Harry's from Virginia. I'm from New Jersey. I was living in New York City for a few years. He was living in Boston, Two major Northeast metropolitan cities, and there is no connection to the local farmer or rancher. And what I mean by that is we both went down this path because we were trying to cure some health issues through diet, which we talked a little bit about in September.
Brett:We had gone carnivore, animal based, eating a lot of animal protein, and that led us down towards wanting to connect with our local rancher. And I remember the first time I heard about that concept of shaking your rancher's hand. I was like, where the hell do I find a rancher? I don't even know where to start. So it's but that's what the mindset is in some of these major cities.
Brett:So it's amazing to see the contrast down here where you it's not Bluffton and White Oak. It's it's one community, and people have a relationship with you, and they know that you're gonna take amazing care of the animals and nurse them with the best quality animal protein.
Will:And you know, I'll I'll go I don't live here and say, I I I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I don't I don't believe all these things, hear people talk about. But I do rail against the impact of big ag and big food. And who's who's best interest is it in for you people in New Jersey or or Boston to not know farmers. So big big foods is.
Will:Mhmm. Yeah. You know, they they they buy food from farmers at very, very, very cheap prices. Mhmm. And they they they do some things now.
Will:They they they they aggregate and further process and and then sell it to consumers. And there's a lot of money in that transaction. And when you look at, you know, you say that we've all seen online those, graphics of the big food companies from Coca Cola, PepsiCo, you know, all of Absolutely. Companies that own the whole food system. And and we all know what incredibly, not just nationally, but internationally powerful financial, monsters that is created in a short time.
Will:Yes. That's eighty years maybe. So, you know, it's the farmer has, been impoverished by, the the stat system. I just got to make sure if you're talking about that right now.
Brett:Oh, yeah.
Will:And then the the consumer is eating, probably less well than they should. That's what you guys talk about for a living.
Brett:Yes.
Will:So and and then there's big multinational publicly traded companies getting rich from those two.
Harry:Yeah. It's it's an efficient system to make those big companies profitable. What's what's your interpretation of the history there on how all of that transpired from a farming perspective? And I I say that as in the concentration of power into so many or so sorry. So few big multinational companies.
Will:K. So three things happened post World War two to the food system. And this this can become a long story.
Harry:Oh, we're ready.
Will:We love it. Three things have industrialized, commoditized, and centralized. So let's just worry. And and and they're they're all related, but they're they're very separate. So the the industrialization, that is changing the farm, from a very cyclical living system to a very linear industrial system.
Will:Factory farm. You know, big I hag just nuts up at the at the term factory farm. That's because it's so accurate. Mhmm. We we we took that very linear, so okay.
Will:So let's let's bring it down first. So there there we talk a lot about a complicated system and a complex system. A complicated system is linear. This this computer device we're talking on here is very complicated. A lot going on to make it work.
Will:And if one component fails, it's not gonna work anymore. Yep. A complex system is like your body or this far. Living system. Complex.
Will:A lot going on to make it work. Right. But if one component fails, it morphs and continues to operate. So reduction is science works incredibly well on these linear complicated systems. Put a man on the moon.
Will:You know, you the whole Internet. You're just all these things. Factories. Factories are so incredible, so efficient, so scaled up. That doesn't work in a living system.
Will:Living systems are are complex. They're they they, replicate, but they don't scale up. You know, what got us here is that incredible linear scaling up in the factory farm, generated just unbelievable efficiencies. It took incredible cost out of production of food, but it left unintended consequences that fell on the backs of the land, the animals, community. So that and it broke and it did that by breaking the cycles of nature.
Will:We'll talk about that later. Alright. So that is the industrialization. The commoditization. That's the second one.
Will:There was a time in that when farmers and and peep and people interacted that farmers were, monetarily benefited by being the best. You know, if I was a tomato farmer, I wanna raise the best freaking tomatoes in the state. Not, you know, partly because of pride of ownership, pride of, you know, hubris, but also because if I raise the best tomatoes and everybody thought Will Harris tomatoes were better than anybody else, I get a premium for them. You know, I was financially rewarded by putting as much value as I could in the property. Whether it was tomatoes or cows or hogs or oranges or pecans or whatever.
Will:Avocado, you don't mind. Then we commoditized. That that we did that so we could big companies could pool products for efficiency. When we did that, we set minimum standards. So all of a sudden, it's not about making your product the best it can be.
Will:It's a race to the bottom to make it as cheap as you can. Put as little value as you can because you're not gonna get compensated for it. The monetization is not there. So that's commoditization. So industrialization hurt the land, the water, the climate.
Will:Commoditization hurt the food. And the last one is centralization. Alright. Three. Right?
Will:And that's what destroyed rural America. That's when we moved the cattle slaughter to the Midwest, now this far West. When we moved the vegetable production to California, Central Valley, we moved such you know, we centralized everything. And we shipped just raw materials from rural America. So there's no monetization there.
Will:So those three things are what got us here. And it's what you described when you said in New Jersey, you didn't know your people. And in Boston, you didn't know people. It's in it's in Big Ag's best interest to keep to keep them separate. Big big food's best interest.
Harry:The commoditization point is so interesting because I think you you see this in a lot of different areas when it comes to the food system. But, like, from the nutrition perspective, there's a lot of arguments around what is, like, grass fed more healthy for you than grain fed, and you kinda get down these weird arguments about, like, almost over sciencing some parts of this, like the carbon the carbon cycle, trying to measure the carbon. I imagine someone like you can figure out how how the organic matter in the soil is doing compared to last year pretty easily, but people are looking for scientific study to figure out why that is. And it it almost plays into the commoditization of the the products because you need someone with an authority to tell you whether or not, you know, this, this product is as good as it is, as as opposed to people just going based on consumer taste or preference.
Will:No. That's a good point. And, you know, in marketing our product, Yeah. I had my my daughter hounds on marketing. I had I had made some pretty stupid statements as well when I first started.
Will:You know, I'd I'd hear some nutritionists say that, grass fed beef had more conjugated linolenic acid than grain fed beef. So I proudly state that. And I realized how stupid I sound. Talking about some, you know, what I know about omega threes and omega sixes and conjugated linoleic acid and all that. You know, it just sounds stupid because you're just parroting what somebody else is saying.
Will:I had her go through our website and remove everything. This is years ago. Everything that talked about nutrient density, health, safety, culinary, taste. Don't don't put that in there. I I I believe a lot of it.
Will:Mhmm. I think I think a lot of it's true, but I'm not the authority. I am the authority on, I don't know, welfare, land stewardship, and community building. Mhmm. So that's what we talk about.
Will:And, you know, I think I think our food tastes pretty good. But, you know, fair trade coffee, that was called.
Harry:Yeah.
Will:Alright. Yeah. You don't taste any butter than regular, not Fairtrade coffee. You know, people pay more for it to support a system they believe in. And I can talk about that as an authority.
Will:Mhmm. You know, I I can't talk about these other things. Luckily, we got people like y'all that talk about it for us. You know, down to Rogers and all those, you know, people that can speak as authorities on those subjects.
Brett:It's a great point. And it's something that Harry and I spent a lot of time thinking about because we've had on a whole different variety of guests, and there's some guests that are all in on the grass fed, grass finish. There's some people that just wanna direct you towards eating more animal products. Then you also have people that are in these wars of carnivore and animal products versus veganism. And we're just trying to focus on getting people to connect with local farmers and just eat real food grown from the ground, whether that's, meat, fish, eggs, dairy, fruits, vegetables.
Brett:And you kind of you use your own determination to figure out what ratios of those foods make the most sense, but just try and push people towards that more direct, sourcing of their food.
Will:Well, and that's that's a constant. The others are moving targets.
Harry:Yeah.
Will:But, you know, the it's hard. It's so it needs talking about a lot because it is so hard. You know? I I, you know, because we were early at this party, when certifications came out, I can remove say, oh, hell yeah. This is great.
Will:Mhmm. You know, I can get certified by whoever, and then I don't have to go I don't have to tell people why it's better. I mean, that that that'll be done for me. And and and I I I bet you I've had just about every certification that you can have. From certified organic, certified humane, GAP step five plus, on and on.
Will:All, you know.
Brett:All of them.
Will:I I can't not meaning we hadn't had. And I did that. And I thought I thought about, like, boy scout, bear badges.
Harry:Yes.
Will:You know, the more I had, the more value I could demonstrate was in my problem. And that didn't work out. You know, green washing came about, and certifications were formed that was just really low hanging fruit that, and and consumers got hopelessly confused. And that now for because soon we go to the store and say, I oh, hell. They're all certified.
Will:This is fine. So that that didn't work. Right. Sadly, that didn't work. Certifying became a cottage industry.
Will:And so, so you can't depend on certification. You can't depend on you certainly can't depend on USDA labeling. I mean, it it is legally fraudulent. You know, you can go to the grocery store and buy beef product of The USA that was born, slaughtered in Uruguay or Australia or New Zealand. It was brought out of The USA.
Will:Kevin, the the animal never drew a breath of air in The USA. We certainly can't depend on the advertising. You know, in any, you know, whether it's sustainable, organic, regenerative, resilient. If we if if we farmers come up with it today, the big food companies will have it emblazoned in pretty colors tomorrow.
Brett:%. And you have such an interesting perspective because you've sold you've sold grass finished beef to Whole Foods for over twenty years. Correct? I do. So you've seen the whole, progression of of labeling and greenwashing.
Brett:And us living in Austin now, we had heard that there was a time period early on in Whole Foods when you would go there and there would be butchers and different people that work there that were incredibly knowledgeable and could tell you exactly where the cow came from, how they were raised, where they grass fed versus, you know, grain finished. And now you go to Whole Foods and there's really no way to verify at all. Sometimes I'll just go there for the heck of it and just talk ask the butcher just to see what their level of knowledge is. And some of them, like, at best, they can tell you the farm that it came from, but I I've never had someone that can verify whether it's actually grass finished beef.
Will:Yeah. That's that's that's a sad story. And, I I sold Whole Foods Market. The first pound first pound of American grass fed beef that they marketed as American grass fed beef nearly twenty years ago. I gotta have to go back and look.
Will:It was probably in the early two thousands. And, and they they had pictures of me and the farm on the wall up there. And, it was it was, ego boost, but it also the because and I and, part of my agreement was that me or somebody would go to every Whole Foods I had in my beef and explain the process to the people behind the counter. So I and I did that. I've been to them.
Will:At one time, my grass fed beef was sold at every freaking Whole Foods from Miami to Princeton, New Jersey to Cincinnati, Ohio. And and it was they were just my only customer. I I sold them in Publix, only two customers. Yeah. And now we're, you know, we I doubt if we stay in Whole Foods very much longer.
Will:Mhmm. Probably be my choice. But, you know, I've I'm not agonizing over because it just I I I it hadn't it hadn't been going in a good direction for a long time.
Brett:Mhmm. So I'm I'm from Princeton. So I remember they opened up a Whole Foods. It was, like, 02/2005 or 02/2006.
Will:I've been to it. There you go.
Brett:So we probably so I'm I'm assuming early on that that that was your beef then that they were having behind the counter.
Will:Grass fed beef in 02/2005 in Princeton, New Jersey. It was mine. Wow. Wow. I just about got arrested in Princeton, New Jersey because I didn't understand those jug hounds.
Will:Oh, yeah. And
Brett:You're like, what the heck is this? I've never seen this before. You can't just make a left. You gotta go around them. Yeah.
Will:And the New Jersey state of Bowman that that that blue lighted me when I did it was such a asshole. And he said he said, he I handed my driver's license, and he looked he's and he blue lighted me, sat in and looked at my tag. I guess he was checking me out. Charger on my on my Jeep.
Harry:Mhmm.
Will:Came up beside and handed my license. I had it ready for him. George to get it there, and he said, so where you from? I said, you know, George St. Trotman would not have asked me that.
Will:Yeah. Yeah. He went out here for there.
Brett:Yeah. People are much nicer down here for sure.
Harry:Yeah. A little bit of that southern hospitality. Yeah.
Will:But anyway, I, we I've been to that I've been to all the Whole Foods that were open during that era. Got it.
Harry:Well, you, you talked a little bit about the labeling of grass fed beef. Is there a way to fix the labeling loss? Because, like, I I kinda understand part of the the problem. It's like, we need to have some level of education for the consumer or maybe, like, some level of security or protection for them to know what they're getting, know that it's high quality. But then from your perspective, it's like, I can't market my incredibly high quality beef in the same way, when these labeling laws kinda just make it a commodity label.
Harry:Well, the short answer is no.
Will:Yeah. Because farm programs, farm bills are written by lobbyists and submitted to aids who submitted to their senators, representatives who collect incredible amounts of money from the lobbyists. And Big Food hires the lobbyists, so do they. They they do. And when I'm asked for help on things like that, I I try to avoid it because I just it's just wasting my time.
Will:You know, sadly, the consumers just gotta do some research. And that's that's I mean, I know I know people don't have the bandwidth for that. But that's that's the option. You know, and it would be better if you could literally go to the farm and shake the hand of the farm. Now, one thing that has happened that's been a blessing for that is with social media, you can follow a farm to the point just it's almost like you've been there.
Will:Now you need to know you could get you need to know the gates open. And we built cabins on this farm for people to come to the lodge, built from RV park. Because people come here. And then, you know, I bet you there's couple dozen people on this farm right now that's distant. And you could come too.
Will:And if you if you I I'm not just selling for white oak pasture. I'm talking about farms all across the country. If you've got a farm and I I urge you to to buy locally, as locally as you can. It may not be in your community, but in your state or in your region. You can, follow them on social media.
Will:Go if you can. But if you can't follow them on social media, be sure you know you could go. They do welcome people to come and look. And that's that's that's pretty good. That's about as good as you're gonna be able to.
Brett:Absolutely. Yeah. You're reminding me of something that you touched on a couple minutes ago. You were talking about when you're talking about the, I think, commoditization, you were talking about this race to the bottom when it comes to food that a lot of ranchers and consumers are on the wrong side of, which is such a shame because I feel like as a man or a woman or someone that's high achieving, being able to put pride in your craft is such an amazing feeling to have. And when we took the tour with you in September, I mean, how many how many tours do you think you've given here?
Brett:Thousands? Yeah. And even on the tour that we had had, there's such a pride that you and the team have for everything that you built out here, and it's reflected in the beef and the the food that you're selling to the local community. And it's such a shame to think that there are there are farmers or ranchers out there that don't have that feeling. And then I guess the consumer is on the wrong end of that because they're eating a product that's maybe not as nutrient dense or something that shouldn't be grown because there's no seasons anymore.
Brett:I don't know. It's just an interesting concept to explore.
Will:Yeah. Something that one comment that that you you would have no way of knowing is that the the pride exists today. The farmers have pride, but the pride is inefficiency. You know, the the the metric has been efficiency at the expense of everything else. You know, I raised, so many pounds of beef per acre at so much a pound.
Will:And that's 3% better than last year. The last twenty years increased 40%. It's been efficiency. And then it will that was again. Peanuts, cotton, corn, that's what we grow here.
Will:Soybeans in the Midwest. Avocado. What would efficiency efficiency. And so people have pride, but the pride has been, the target has been moved towards only efficient efficiency at the expense of everything else. And when you I think I think that efficiency and resilience are like the antithesis of each other.
Will:Mhmm. We all need to try to be efficient, but not at the cost of everything else. And the more efficient you make something, the more resilient. You know, the the the taller you build it, the more likely it is to to fall or the less adversity it can take without a fall.
Harry:Yeah. I was gonna say, do you think, the pandemic exposed a lot of the over not or, I I guess, not thinking about these supply chains food supply chains in a resilient way as opposed to what we've just grown accustomed to in terms of efficiency.
Will:He did a great job of exposing it for that two weeks. Yeah. But people forget. Yeah. You know, they they you know, one morning, I was putting on my boots and drinking my coffee.
Will:And CNN had the president of Tyson said the food supply chain is breaking. The American food supply chain is breaking. He was right. It was. And if it had lasted longer Mhmm.
Will:You know, it would have been increasingly broken. So
Harry:Where where was it breaking most? Was it the processing facilities, or any other areas that it was really feeling a lot of pressure?
Will:Yeah. I think I think that the the initial I think that at all levels, the the pain was felt, but the processing was the worst. It was the most the least resilient. Mhmm. Because when it broke, they started having to euthanize pigs and poultry because they had nowhere to go with them, and then those animals can't stand there.
Will:My cows have been standing there for twenty years. Right. But, you know, the life the average life of a cow is expected to see is twenty years. They could've been out of twenty years. They got older and older, they've been alright.
Will:But, you know, industrial CAFO feeding operation, you know, those animals, they they they gotta keep moving.
Brett:And you had really protected yourself against that because you have not one but two slaughterhouses on the farm. Is that correct?
Will:Yeah. Correct. But now one's red meat, one's poultry.
Will:One's red meat,
Will:one's poultry. Really just one for each. Mhmm. Animal group. But Yeah.
Will:So, yeah, this, you know, just a very nonresilience. My my definition for resiliency is a system that can take hard licks to continue to operate. Mhmm. It's just like we talked about morphing. You know?
Will:And, this this system is not scaled up to the point that efficiency is everything. Yeah. So there there is no resistance.
Harry:What was your thought process when all of that was happening in that two week month period and, I guess, even the months following, were I'm imagining you were probably feeling relatively insulated from a lot of the other things that farmers were feeling.
Will:Oh, shit. We were completely insulated. I I wouldn't know we were having a pandemic. Right? We we were kind of a hot spot, because of because of some social things that occurred.
Will:But, you know, I got a 80 employees. I don't know how many of them actually tested positive at some point, but most most of us, I you know, me and my whole family did. But out of a 80 employees, we had zero deaths in one hospitalization that I know of. And that was a a person with a lot of preexisting stuff. So, and I'm not I'm not gluten.
Will:I mean, but but it still is a resilient lifestyle, resilient system.
Brett:It's probably an incredibly interesting position for you to be in because, number one, you're feeling for all the other local farms that are dependent on this very delicate supply chain. But number two, it's probably proof a great proof of concept for you that everything that you've built is
Will:I felt terrible for other people. But I but it but it did make me feel good about the decisions we've made over the last twenty, twenty five years. Mhmm. And then why not and I I'll say this. I learned something.
Will:So the fastest growing part of our business is our own line as we have lost favor in, food service and grocery. So the the online direct to consumer has has improved. And, of course, during that pandemic panic, it just went crazy. And, you know, we we can usually keep, I don't really know, couple million dollars in inventory, maybe more than that. My daughter could tell you.
Will:But all of a sudden, we just sold out of everything. And I got I was mortified. I have people call me on my cell phone. My cell phone is listed on the website, so I'm easy to get. And other people call me, so, you know, I've been buying my product from you for x years.
Will:You don't have anything. You you you've let me down. Shit. I did. So, you know, we had perfect strangers call him and just order huge orders of stuff.
Will:And then the people that depended on me, I didn't have anything on. So, we set up a, what's that called? Loyalty program. So now you're a mayor, okay, councilman, citizen,
Harry:village idiot. That's us. Yeah. We want to sign up.
Will:And, so we, you know, we protect our people.
Harry:Yeah. The it's interesting. A lot of the findings, you you said we have short term memories. It's like, it does feel like that wasn't all that long ago, but quickly, we just go back to the way things
Will:Yeah. Were. Yeah. Yeah. And and me too.
Will:But Yeah. You know, as a as a specie, we suck.
Harry:Yeah. We do. One of the things I wanted to touch on, and there's so many things I wanna go back to, but you mentioned the greenwashing. And, you're very vocal about this one point on one of your blogs. It's it's not just about carbon.
Harry:There's so many other things going on. I think it's it speaks to how you understand and see what you're doing on this property. It's not just one cycle. It's this whole ecosystem, this whole dance that you're creating between these different worlds. Can you touch on that?
Harry:Because I think you you kind of foresee what's coming, which is carbon this whole carbon argument is gonna start being used against people like yourself.
Will:Yeah. So I I told you I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm not. But Not yet. On that on that particular topic, maybe so.
Will:Yeah. So I told you that industrial farming breaks the cycles of nature, and it does. And the cycles of nature are, to name a few, the carbon cycle, the microbial cycle, the energy cycle, the water cycle, the mineral cycle, and there are there are others. There I'm I'm certain there are cycles we don't even recognize.
Harry:Right.
Will:But those cycles, I can see. And you cannot have a healthy ecosystem if all the cycles work except one. It doesn't matter. It's like, all your organs work except your heart. Mhmm.
Will:How's that working for you? Yeah. So anyway, just
Harry:We'd have to get out of here.
Will:Airlift. So, it it it it's very, obvious to me that we talk about the carbon cycle all the frigging time. Everybody knows about carbon and ancient carbon and and the you know, is it? And I and I I believe that there's going to be a lot of money in the carbon business at some point. And I don't think farmers gonna be, gonna get much out of it.
Will:That that's the obvious place to do it. Rebuild this carbon cycle, which builds the soil, which increases productivity, which makes healthy water, healthy oceans, health you just say we we talk about that all day. Yeah. So is there too much carbon up there? I I I bet there is.
Will:I mean, the scientists say there is, it makes sense to me, is as many tons and gallons of coal and oil and natural gas we've pumped out and put up. I don't see how they could not be. So the carbon emitters, people like Delta Airlines and whoever else, is going to be shamed into doing something about it. That's good. That's good.
Will:That's fine. Those two farmers who you know, we if you'll help and contribute to that problem, you should be shamed into doing something about it. Shame through your shareholders, through your customers. So they're going to you know, at some point, I don't know how it's gonna look. They're gonna have to pay for carbon emission.
Will:And the people who measure carbon are gonna make a lot of money. Mhmm. The people who sequester carbon through technology are gonna make a lot of money. The people who sequester carbon in the land don't get left out for the for the greatest part because it's hard to measure. It's much slower.
Will:If you pump the carbon out of the air and pumping it into the ground or putting it in an ingot that you put in a warehouse, that's you're helping solve a problem, but you're not contributing to the betterment of the the the natural system. So I'm I'm pretty sure I know what's I'm pretty sure I know where that's gonna be. I got friends who farmers who are really watching that very closely because they think they're gonna make a lot of money on it. I'm not watching that closely.
Brett:Not watching that closely.
Will:I certainly take advantage of it if it presented itself, but I see the technology people hogging that up.
Brett:Do you remember when you started to see a strong emphasis being placed on carbon compared to some of these other cycles that you talk about?
Will:You know, I don't. It kinda came about gradually. I don't I don't know. I I don't I don't remember. That that, I but I have noticed over years that, man, we're talking about this one problem.
Harry:Right.
Will:And there are other problems.
Harry:Yeah.
Will:And it's a hell of a problem, but the others are too. Yeah.
Harry:It's it's interesting. It kinda puts you in this interesting position because you're very well known for your life cycle analysis that was done on your land to prove that you are sequestering carbon out of the atmosphere back into the soil and creating organic matter and restoring all of these systems. But then at the same and I think that's done an amazing job in convincing some people who are skeptical about regenerative farming to start thinking about it in a different way. But now it's like that study could almost start to be used against what you're doing it Yeah. In some ways.
Will:Oh, yeah. Well, you know, the, the prop the the the the good thing about sequestering carbon, about putting in the soil is it's the right thing to do. Yeah. That's a good thing. The bad thing about it is it's hard to measure, expensive to measure, very slow to accomplish.
Will:The the the I I reject the argument that you can only put so much in. I reject that. That's not right. That's junk science. You know, you I think it has a saturation point that you depending on your echo system, you may only be able to put a certain percentage.
Will:Maybe mine's at five point something percent. You know, maybe I'm about there. Maybe it won't get much over six. I don't know. But it can get deeper and deeper.
Will:Mhmm. So I reject the volumetric argument. But the other arguments are valid. It's hard to measure.
Brett:The volumetric argument is interesting because there was a panel in September at that beef initiative conference that we were at, and I think someone asked you kind of like a he was almost trying to over science things. He was asking you how you quantify carbon or just some of the other regenerative practices that you're implementing here. And I think you very simply said that you go out there with a shovel. And based on what you turn up with a shovel, that's how you kind of quantify what you're doing.
Will:Yeah. The LCA and I I know that's not adequate for consumers. I know that's not adequate for government papers. There gotta be something better than that. But when that LCA showed that my organic model of my soil had moved from a half percent to five point something percent, that didn't surprise me.
Will:I I didn't need that $80,000 LCA to tell me that. I I can tell it was a show. I mean, just just go out there with a show. I can show you right now. Turn a spade full of soil over.
Will:It was like chocolate cake. You know, go to my neighbors turn a spade full over and it's a dead mineral medium. You know that that black stuff in there that goes with that chocolate, you know where that is? Carbon.
Harry:Carbon.
Will:And where it came from? Up there. Mhmm. I didn't go to the carbon store and buy any carbon and put in there. That carbon that's in there used to be greenhouse gas.
Will:It came from that plant through the magic of photosynthesis, breathing in that gas carbon, c o two, other greenhouse gases, turning it into liquid carbon, sugar, sucrose. And then, through the magic of that that plant's growth turning into solid carbon, which is the the actual plant tissue roots. And the the article that the the the argument that, cows raise naturally are contributing to to greenhouse gases is such bullshit. Right. Do they do they burp and fluctuate?
Will:Yep. They do. Does some carbon go up when they do? Yep. It does.
Will:You know where it came from? Up there. You know, all of that carbon came from up there. Mhmm. Yeah.
Will:Some of it when the beef that we eat, the level that we wear, the the fat that that we use in many ways, some of it went into that half percent to 5%, and a a small percentage of it went back up. It don't matter. It's cycled. It's it's cycled. It's a cyclical system.
Will:Right.
Harry:It's not additives.
Will:Water. You know what it does? Cycles. Minerals. You know what they do?
Will:Cycle. Carbon. You know what it does? Cycle. Micro cycle.
Will:It's a cyclical system. It's a living system.
Harry:It's it's interesting. One one of the things we had a conversation with, a young farmer. He's 30 years old. He has a farm called Counter Culture Farms. His name is Austin, and it's, he's in Texas.
Harry:And, one of the things he was talking about was kind of these parallels between what's happening in the soil, what's happening in our food, and what's happening in our communities is kinda all being similar where, like, the communications, the natural language that all these different organisms are speaking are are being broken. And you remind it reminded me of what you just said about how carbon is gonna be potentially used against, you know, farmers like yourself saying that, you know, Delta Airlines is just gonna be able to get carbon credits and, just by planting trees. It's like there's this, the incentives just get obfuscated and make us now operate in a way that's not natural. Like, it's why is Delta Airlines able to pump, carbon into the atmosphere and then say that it's okay just by planting trees? That doesn't make much sense.
Will:Well, there's a couple of things. One is the three systems you mentioned are living systems. That's why they're so similar. You know, they you. So let's talk about externalized cost because that's what that's with with the carbon thing.
Will:Yeah. Yeah. That's externalizing cost. And how do we wanna talk about that? There's a lot you can say.
Will:But, we talk about how cheap food is in the industrial system. Well, it's not that freaking cheap. It's just that the cost have been externalized. You know, how much how much is, you know, if you if you believe in climate change, you believe that weather events come from that. How much does good hurricane cost society?
Will:How much does, will those huge fires in the West cost society? Yeah. How much does, losing antibiotics that could save your baby because the, pathogens are now immune to it? How much does that cost? What does that cost to size?
Harry:Billions. Trillions.
Will:What? Yeah. I mean So limited. Yeah. You know, we we can go species extinction.
Will:How many species have been lost of plants, animals, micro? And what does that cost society? And we wouldn't go on and on. I I I bet you I can make a list that cost society, but it doesn't cost the perpetrator. It didn't and I've been a perpetrator.
Will:Mhmm. They did zone in the Gulf Of Mexico. How much that cost society? Well, I contributed to it. Yeah.
Will:I put a bunch of pesticides, chemical fertilizer out on my land. It went down Spring Creek to the Apalachicola River to the Apalachicola Bay. You know what you can't do in Apalachicola Bay anymore? Harvest oysters. How much that cost?
Will:Society. So and when you talk about, I see I see advertising for a whole chicken fryer is a dollar a pound. Shit. Ground beef, $2 or half a pound or something. Shit.
Will:Those they're huge externalized cost in those cheap ass prices. Yeah. The society's paid. Mhmm. So, you know, don't don't talk to me about that.
Brett:Yeah. What's interesting too, a lot of these perpetrators seem like they're continuing to get off scot free, and you have a very interesting perspective. You wrote that great blog on, the recipients for the USDA. Was it the climate smart commodities grant?
Will:The climate smart commodity grant. And we we put together a, a a proposal that I thought was really good about grazing, solar huge, big utility size solar arrays. We graze two now, and they're gonna be grazing some more in time because they're big. One of them is 680 acres. One of them is 450 acres.
Will:And the other two would be nearly a thousand acres each big. And it's a great opportunity for underserved people to to get into farming. I mean, I I'm not an underserved person, but I'm in I'm in a position to figure it out and and do it. And we wanted to teach other people, so I we did a hired a a lady who's very talented to do the grant application for us. I felt very good about it.
Will:I got my lawyer saying that my our grant had been rejected, Then I said, well, shit. You know, it must be some good ones. You know, not not spilled milk. No problem. I I've lost before.
Will:I ain't got you know, I don't have to win all the time. Then the announcement came out, and the the recipients were people like PepsiCo, Coca Cola, big restaurant chains, Microsoft.
Brett:Microsoft.
Will:John Deere. I mean, just you you can look at it. It's it's online. That's where I got it. And, and then that pissed me off.
Will:You know? Just just you know what I mean? So it gets back to that lobbyist, aids, politicians, you know, making these kinds of suit.
Brett:Yeah. To to what you said is it wasn't losing the grant that pissed you off. You've lost things before. You're a big boy. It's who they're giving the grants to.
Brett:I think you had said, like, the exact actors that are fucking up the the environment are the ones that are receiving the grants.
Will:Oh, if some of the farmer got it because he had a better proposal than me, shit. That's fine.
Will:That's fine.
Will:How come I help you? But
Harry:Did they give you any qualifications as to why you didn't get it, or was it just just a note?
Will:I think there was some process I could go through Yeah. To get it reviewed. You know, I ain't fucking with that.
Harry:Yeah.
Will:I mean, I already knew why.
Harry:Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's one of those things that's that's hard to as a as someone who wants to see this regenerative agriculture movement continue to move in the right direction, it's hard to see more money getting steered in the wrong direction towards these companies that don't really have anything, to to offer, you know, small farmers, medium sized farmers, other than, you know, just continuing more of the same.
Will:Well, what what wounded me about it is the fact it was just such stark evidence that I I just how screwed up this whole thing is. Right.
Brett:I
Will:hear you. You're very climate smart commodity grant to the very perpetrators that screwed up. And I I I'm not I'm not a perpetrator too. I mean, I'm not I'm not this is not holy other than vile. But, you know, the, the the project we submitted was about there's no way of of questioning the benefit to society, rural America, underserved farmers, people that wanna eat, good food, you know, on and on.
Will:Yeah. So
Harry:And that was
Will:And again, that's that's old. But I I but it's not spilling milk. We ain't crying with spilling milk. We just use this as an example to help people understand how bad things are.
Brett:What is your perspective on, just the USDA overall?
Harry:That's a loaded question.
Brett:Which I know is a loaded question.
Will:Well, no. I'm litigating against them right now. So Yeah. You know, but let's let's let's just be clear here. Say USDA is good or bad.
Will:That's why I say people in New York City are good and bad. Certainly, there are wonderful people in USDA. Certainly, there are. Certainly, there are horrible people in USDA. Certainly, there are.
Will:And the the system is the system is just not good. You know, I you know, one thing I believe is that there's a, like, a revolving door policy. I don't think it's just USDA. I think it's federal bureaucracy. I believe there are people in the Department of Defense, let's talk about them, that become very senior.
Will:And they're 50 years old and and making a hundred and something thousand dollars a year as senior administrators. And I think those people there's a culture there where they kowtow to the defense industry and and and rule and left over and buy preferentially. No kickback. But then when those guys retire at 52, they can go to work with that defense department making $300,000 a year. I think that happens.
Will:And I think it happens in USDA and other bureaucracy. I can't prove it, and I don't wanna get sued. But, do I believe things like that happen? Oh, yeah. Mhmm.
Will:That's what I believe. But for
Brett:you to operate your slaughterhouses, it has to be is it a USDA certified facility? Is that what the the labeling is?
Will:Inspected. Inspected. Inspected. No. That's that's a little different when we talk about that.
Brett:Okay.
Will:Alright. So, USDA, catches a lot of hell. I don't think they deserve on that day. I've got I told you this this good and this bad. Right?
Will:So, the fact is there are onerous food safety rules that processing plant owners have to regulations we have to follow this USDA administers. And and and and I use the word onerous and and I mean it. They're onerous. They're hard to do. But every one of those regulations are in place because somebody, somewhere did something stupid or criminal.
Will:You know, food safety is important. So while it has cost me a lot of money and time and effort and anguish in the last twenty years, following these owner's regulations. There's a reason for it. Now that's just true. The, what they're criticized for is the fact that these regulations are easier to comply with for big industrial plants than us, small plants.
Will:And and I I think I think that's just part of that efficiency that that I mean, it's just, you know, it's so easy to, so much easier to comply when you got a big high volume plan. Nothing if you got more head to analyze the cost over.
Harry:Right.
Will:But we we can talk about that a lot.
Harry:We had a conversation with Joel Salton, and he I think the words that he used was, costs, prejudicial or or size prejudicial when it comes to the just, ability to compete against some of the bigger processing facilities.
Will:I I can understand him using that word. I I wouldn't argue with that. Yeah. But I also, I don't want food safety to become less stringent. Right.
Will:That that that's that's bad for everybody. Yeah. And one of the few we pop pop one of the few benefits of the mega industrial slaughter is the fact that, it it is so efficient for the for the people that own it, but also makes it efficient for USDA. Mhmm. And that one's being prejudicial against us, but I can't say that's intentionally present.
Harry:Right. Right.
Will:There's a thing I believe that that grant thing, I mean, that's intentionally prejudicial. These other things, I think, are just organically a little prejudicial.
Brett:Do you have a perspective on that whole Amos Miller trial that's going on with him versus the USDA?
Will:I don't I know about it. I don't know enough about it. So I I you know, I without me studying up more, you know, I really hate to comment on that. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Will:You could remind me.
Brett:The only thing I know is that I I guess he's an Amish farmer in Pennsylvania, and he's got a private membership association. I think it's 4,000 members that have been buying meat, raw milk, products like that from him for for decades. And I think he's in some type of a lawsuit against the USDA because I guess he is his members are buying from him because he's selling food as god intended. So I don't think he's spraying it with I don't know if it's citric acid or something that needs to make it USDA certified. So the USDA has been coming after him, and I guess it's just been getting a lot of coverage.
Will:Yeah. You know, I I I don't I don't know that story well. I've heard of it. I don't know enough will to come yet. I'm not I'm not reluctant to come yet.
Will:I just don't know enough.
Brett:Yes.
Will:I I personally drink raw milk that is labeled for pet food only. Mhmm. Because in Georgia, you can't sell raw milk for human consumption. So, you know, I'm I'm guilty of involving myself in that sort of commerce. But I, here, we don't do it simply because I I don't dairy and the things that I I do do a lot of further processing, but it's it's pretty easy for us, you know, to to and and I don't know the scale that got operational.
Will:I just don't know I don't know enough.
Brett:You don't know enough. Yeah.
Will:I don't
Will:know enough about that.
Brett:It is an interesting world that we live in now where you can go buy Fruity Pebbles from any grocery store. And in any state and raw milk, it's depending on where you live. You can't even get access to this Yeah. Incredibly nutrient dense form of food that we've been eating for
Will:thousands of years. First, just thought about how screwed up food laws are now.
Harry:Yeah. One, Brad had a chance to mention the grant, which hits on a topic I was hoping to talk to you about, which is subsidies and just money in general in food because it's such a limiting factor or, you know, in the opposite case, I think it it can provide a lot of opportunities for people who, maybe need to have a little bit of extra money to grow their farm operation, and access to money is obviously massive for farming. It's incredibly capital intensive business. What do you or what is your opinion of the subsidies in The US now? Like, are those promoting the types of practices that you wanna see into the future?
Will:No. That's something I know a lot about.
Harry:Let's talk.
Will:So I think that, the only place in my life that I know I'm a hypocrite is government money. You know, I I I think it's wrong. It's bad. But maybe my crop says, I think it's wrong. I think it's bad.
Will:I think most frequently, they subsidize the wrong things. But I'm the first to sign up, and I'm very competitive. I get them to go with my own. You know, I mentioned Gabe Brown. Gabe won't accept government money.
Will:And I respect that. I tell him that, you know, bro, I I'm just more of a whore than you are. And I am. Because I'll take it. I think it's wrong.
Will:But if they're gonna give it away, I'm gonna take it. My my my line is, if I were king, there wouldn't be any. Yeah. But they won't let me be king. So I do the the disclaimer is I signed up for everything.
Will:Now the truth is, as I said before, big ag and big food right the farm bill through lobbyists, through staffers, through the politicians that actually vote on it or debate it and vote on it. That's just the way it is. It's not new. We could talk a lot about that. You know, the the most you probably won't cut this out because it's it's it's probably just interesting to me.
Will:But the most highly subsidized crops, historically, were sold on crops. Tobacco, sugar, rice, cotton, peanuts. Historically, that's changed a little bit, but from way back. Why is that? And the answer is because the South had an agrarian economy.
Will:And separately, the South inherit elected, politicians for life. You know, the Talmadges, the Russells, they stayed. Strom Thurmond was the most recent. When you got in when you became a a representative or a senator from from the South, you you you probably will be there twenty or thirty or forty years. Well, how do they make committee assignments?
Will:Seniority. What committees do those southern politicians wanna serve on? Ag. So the the commit the farm bill was built by southern leadership. Mhmm.
Will:And and it was it was like pork. Pork pork barrel politics. Right? They they subsidize those sovereign crops most heavily. And that's evolved, but now it's today, it's not driven by sovereign politicians.
Will:It's driven by big ag and big food, hiring lobbyists telling the staffers what to write. That's that's the way that works. So it it's it's a bad for a huge, huge program. It's not good.
Harry:And it it also is what I find interesting I think I've heard this statistic. It's, like, 60% of monocropped or industrialized cropped, agriculture gets fed into a feedlot agriculture. So it's I don't know if that's a % accurate, but if that's the case, it's kind of perpetuating this system that directly competes with what you're doing.
Will:Yeah. I don't know what the percentages are. But to be sure, the money in that, for the most part, is spent is decided by big ag and big food. Now that's some window dressing. There's little things on there.
Will:We we would have believed that client's market by the grant would have been one of those. But would it it even went back to big multinational companies.
Brett:Right. How does the process actually work to receive subsidies for some of those crops that you'd mentioned?
Will:It's, it's done through a branch of USDA called FSA, Farm Services Agency. And, used to be every county had an FSA office. They consolidated some, so now there's there's less of them. But it's a it's a bureaucratic process. The program is announced.
Will:You sign up. I sign up. Gabe don't sign up. But, and you I mean, when we we we get subject, we take subject. To your point, I get subsidized less per dollar volume, I do then probably a a a commodity monocultural commodity product, farmer, probably.
Will:I don't I hadn't I hadn't done that real deep, but I'm sure it's true.
Brett:One of
Harry:the things that I I think you mentioned this on the Joe Rogan podcast was that, you don't grow all of your cow feed on property. Is that right?
Will:I grow just about all my cow feed on property. Yeah. The cow feed is is hay.
Harry:Yeah.
Will:Or haylage. And most of it's grown on this property. You know, sometimes we run out and we'll buy some from a neighbor. Right. I do not buy I do not grow my monogastric feed, pig pig and poultry feed.
Will:I buy it, and I don't like that. But I do I love closing loops. Mhmm. You know, the more things I can do for myself, the more resilient. It may not make some more money.
Will:It makes more resilient. Right. Not being dependent upon. I don't have my own hatchery. I buy chicks and keats and ducklings and goslings from a hatcher, but I want one.
Will:You know, I spent my last twenty five years closing loops. There's still a lot of them to be closed. Some of some of them, you know, won't be closed by me.
Brett:Do you think it's important to make that effort to eat pork and chicken that are non corn and soy fed? Because that's something that a lot of people on the Internet are talking about. And I'm just curious your perspective actually raising and slaughtering animals like that.
Will:The you know, that's that's outside the land, community, animal program. But I hear it too. And in fact, we feed I may get this wrong. I'm a try it. We feed our pigs non GMO feed that we buy.
Will:We feed our poultry non corn, non soy, which is non GMO feed. And we do that out of customer demand. You know, our customers have talked to my daughter who's marketing and convinced her that that's what they want. And so we, have invested in in we've increased our cost of doing business by buying those feeds. And they cost more, and it takes longer.
Will:And and I, you know, the the nutrition side of it, you know, I don't know. I I don't I don't know all that.
Brett:Got it. But it's based off of customer demand.
Will:Because because purely customer demand. Now I say this about GMOs. It's important for me to say this. The, the damage that's been done by industrializing farm production, agriculture, farming. It's been through the misuse of technologies, misapplied technology.
Will:You know, how many pesticides have been recalled? We're talking about Right. Nitrogen and phosphate runoff. Oh, oh, no. You could take it to pharmaceuticals that have been recalled.
Will:So it's just it's just misused technology. GMOs, as far as I know, don't cause any any problem. Now that chemical fertilizer, the father of my dad knew, didn't cause any problem. Right. So, you know, is there a likelihood that GMOs are misused technology?
Will:Well, if history's a guy, it is. Mhmm. I don't know that. Do I mistrust them? Hell, yeah.
Will:I mean, it's something that is that technology is that powerful. Take genes out of a salmon and put it in a plant. I mean, that's unheard of. And we've only been doing it since, what, the eighties? Probably.
Will:Yeah. So it's so new. And and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if my grandchildren aren't sitting here talking about the horrible damages of that missile technology. But I I don't know that. I just know if history's a guide, it's probably true.
Will:Mhmm. Now does it using that non GMO, non corn, non soy, does that add the cost of production? Yep. They cost feed cost more, and they don't it takes longer for them to reach market weight. Is it worth it?
Will:My daughter thinks it is. That's what we're gonna do.
Harry:Interesting. Yeah. I was I was gonna ask, you you kinda answered the question, but is closing these loops becoming harder because, the agricultural system is more centralized? Meaning, you know, a lot of, like, the genetics, out there is the chemicals are just in so few people's hands that it's, like, almost is it hard to do your own way of, things just completely separate from them? Yeah.
Will:I don't think I don't think I I would make that statement. I don't think it's hard for me to close loops, necessarily because of because of that. But what that does make me want to tell you is, I want oh, let's talk about this is back on that externalized cost a little bit. Mhmm. Let me see.
Will:Let's try to get into that. Alright. Let's do this. So USDA every year, publishes a number that's, the, how what percent of the food dollar the farmer gets. And it's been coming down for a long time.
Will:And I think it's something like 14.3 or 0.7¢ today. And, and when you hear that initially, you know, you just call you call bullshit on that. That's not right. The guy that's oh, girl. That's raising the animal or vegetable or grain or we get a lot more than 14.3 or 7¢ of every dollar.
Will:Oh, yeah. You gotta break that down a little bit. You'll never hear me say anything that sounds like I'm defending big ag or big food. If it sounds like I'm defending it, I've said it wrong. You've heard it wrong.
Will:I'm not on defending Mhmm. Thing. We're talking about big tobacco in a minute. But the fact is, big ag and big food have absorbed a tremendous amount of the cost that the farmer used to bear or that that that we bear here Farmers in general used to bear. If you're a farmer anywhere in the 48 states, I'll leave Alaska in Hawaii because I don't think about it.
Will:In 48 states, and you raise a load of any commodity, a 48,000 pound 18 wheeler truckload of any commodity, whether it's pigs or corn or tomatoes or avocados or it don't matter. Raise that peaches. Raise that 48,000 pounds. You can call Big Ag and they'll come get it and give you a check and it's over for you. You don't have to worry about getting it processed.
Will:You don't have to worry about, market access. You don't have to worry about getting it to them. Just call and tell them where the truck is. Yep. They'll come get it, you get an EFT or or check.
Will:Mhmm. So they have absorbed those costs, but it came at a great price Mhmm. The farm. And those prices, that's what we talked about previously. The fact that the, impact to the community, to the environment, to the consumer is also externalized.
Brett:So it seems like almost to have the sovereignty that you have, you have to be willing to bear that cost, that big ag Absolutely. Bearing and have that skin in the game.
Will:Absolutely. That that that that I I've never said it that way before. That's good. To have the sovereignty that we enjoy comes at a great cost. You know, for years, the office for the farm was the kitchen table.
Will:And when I built my first plant, the red meat plant in o seven, I built the first office we ever had. It was a little 12 by 12. Oh, it was my office. We never had office before. I thought I was a big shot.
Will:I recently built an administration building to house the people it takes to handle that sovereignty that you brought up. I'm gonna remove that sovereignty.
Brett:Sovereignty.
Harry:But, you
Will:know, we went from being a tiny little component in the big food chain that feeds us all. We're in our own tiny little food chain. Tiny. Little food chain. $2,025,000,000 dollars a year in a multitrillion dollar industry.
Will:So when we do that, then we we, we pay that price. But then we get to decide to close the loops and those kind of that that it's not gonna be a race to the bottom. It
Brett:would be so interesting just to see your dad's reaction to the concept of you having an office and an admin team and just the sovereignty and the whole facility that you've that you've built out here.
Will:I think I have it every fucking day.
Brett:Every day.
Will:He, so my dad was an only child born in 1920. And I'm a little child born in 1954. That's very unusual for foreign families of those generations. And, he was a child of the depression and just so debt, adverse. He wouldn't borrow money.
Will:I think he'd like everything we've done except borrowing money. But, when when I die and go to hell, he's gonna be there waiting on me, and I dread it. Yeah.
Harry:Are you encouraged by what you're seeing within this this new age of of agriculture that's slowly sprouting up? You've, you know, really pioneered it, but are you encouraged by the direction of how things are going?
Will:That's a good question, and I am. But now I cannot honestly tell you right now, well, I am a niche producer, raising food for the sophisticated consumer that cares about the land and the community and their body. Or whoever I'm an early innovator in a change. I don't know. Yeah.
Will:I don't know. I fear I'm just a niche producer. That's what I fear. Mhmm. And and I and the the the the question becomes, what percent of the people care enough to re internalize those externalized calls.
Will:And I don't know. I don't you know, I I don't know what it is now, but I don't think it's much. Two or three percent. We sell our $25,000,000 worth of stuff. That's a lot.
Will:But we we we sell it from 48 states. You know, I I don't wanna do that. I wanna sell 25. I don't wanna sell 35,000,000. I wanna sell 25,000,000.
Will:And I wanna sell it right here in Georgia, Alabama. I want somebody else doing it. Those are the place. Yeah. But I I don't know what percent.
Will:I don't know I don't know what percent. I know there's there's a a huge percentage of the people that are absolutely addicted to obscene legit food. And they'll never come in this way. Yeah. I know there are people at least people I know it's about $25,000,000 worth.
Will:And it's not just me. You know, Gabe's selling it. Alexandria is selling it. North Fork is selling it. Richard is selling it.
Will:So, you know, what I don't know how much we're selling, but, you know, few hundred million dollars. I bet I bet you if we're selling 25,000,000, and we are, I bet you it's not a few hundred million that's all the soul in this country. It's small. I'm talking about the real deal.
Brett:The real deal.
Will:And, you know, how I mean, that whoop says just that, probably one Yeah. Less. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah.
Will:I don't know. I don't know whether there's I don't know whether you would know better than I do here. You talk to those people. You are those people. Yeah.
Will:We're on where the lines are.
Harry:Yeah. Trying trying to grow the percentage, but it seems like the audience of people is that are receptive are very passionate about it, which is a hard thing to to take away and and take lightly. I think people who are excited about this movement are probably aren't gonna change their mind.
Will:And your nemesis is the incredible advertising budget of big food. Yeah. So, you know, they they are they got brilliant people paying a lot of money to convince them that something green washed is just as good as me and those people I just listed for doing.
Brett:Mhmm.
Will:So and and it's effective. Yeah. It's great.
Brett:Yeah. A stat that we come back to is so the average child watches almost three hours of television on the average day, which is which speaks for
Harry:itself. Often.
Brett:Yeah. And during the three hours time, they'll be shown 23 ads for food that's high in sugar and fat.
Will:How about that? Is that incredible? That's incredible. Yeah. Shit.
Will:We didn't have a TV. I was pretty excited.
Brett:You turned out alright.
Harry:Well and that that's their informational diet. And then you you go look at the food and it's you know, as soon as it hits their tongue, they're addicted to what they're seeing on the TV. And then it hits their tongue and they're addicted to the the taste of those highly processed foods. It's really this beautifully orchestrated system. Now I I use the term, predatorial marketing.
Harry:I mean, I think that it's it's really dangerous having that that, tactic of being able to just target kids.
Will:Well, you know, you know, I don't know I don't know what kids are like today, but, you know, when in my era, all all young boy, all young men wanted to be athletes and superstars and and what was on the cover of if you want a cartoon character, what was on the cover of that that cereal box or the poster?
Harry:Right. Yeah. We've mentioned legacy a few times, and we were, we were excited to get down here because in September because it was right around the time that the sixth generation of, White Oak Pastures was being born. Do you think about, you know, interest into the future, sorta how things are being handed off, to your daughters and and then, the sixth generation as well?
Will:Yeah. I got seven grandchildren. Two were born this year.
Harry:Okay. Congratulations, by the way.
Will:Thank you. Appreciate that. So, you you know, it's important to me that my so ironically, my dad did not want me to come back far. We we were like this for a lot of that's what I wanna do. He didn't want me to do it.
Will:He had his own reason to speak. And I never thought my children were coming back. And my my they have three daughters. They were raised like suburban kids. They were raised out in the country, but, you know, it was, they they never drove a tractor.
Will:You know, the they, you know, they went to ballet and karate and soccer and piano and boy you know, they were just like suburb kids. I never thought they'd come back here. And, you know, what I wanted to do is create them an opportunity to come back, but not the obligation to come back. And, you know, no family business lasts for many generations. I mean, I used to be pulling out the car here of no one's on but most seldom does a family business go for more than, what, three, four, five, six generations.
Will:And this one won't either. Now I don't know exactly what what day, but what generation. But sooner or later, somebody just won't do it anymore. And that's I can't I I can't run it from the grave. Now I am doing all that.
Will:I do have two of my three daughters that are committed to it. So, you know, they are in their thirties. And so and they're very deeply committed and their spouses are. So there's no doubt in my mind, this farm, unless we hit some economic, insurmountable problem. It will go on for another thirty years.
Will:And we make our investments generationally. One of the things that is like blessing and a curse is, we can we make decisions generationally. We don't we don't pay much attention to a quarterly report or an annual report. We don't have much money, cash to spend. We got a lot of assets.
Will:We don't have much money. And we got a lot of projects we wanna do. And we're considering those projects. We don't think about it having to pay itself off in a year or five years. You know, if it we we think about it in a thirty year window.
Will:To be sure, we're gonna operate another thirty year. Right. The seven grandchildren, there's a likelihood one or two or more. We wanna that's another thirty year. So sooner or later, it'll end.
Will:I don't know I don't know I don't know how that works. I don't know how that works. In the meantime, what we're focused on is an orderless secession. Now I've had, I'm 68 years old. I've seen a lot of I've seen a lot of shit.
Will:I've seen a lot of great family businesses that just just went to hell when daddy died because nobody knew what to do. And we're not gonna let that happen. And there's a, a secession plan. You know? And and my my, family members and non family members who are in management are very involved in the decision making process.
Will:Right? It took a long I bought a yesterday, I bought a a a little mobile home at 1.5 acres of land for $35,000. And I I went to the board and asked for permission to do it with my damn money, but I don't do that anymore. And now we make decisions as a group.
Brett:What is the feeling like for you when you go to different conferences or more so have people come out to the farm and they talk to you about the impact that you and White Oak have had on them in terms of their appreciation for good food or regenerative farming practices?
Will:Well, it is flattering. Mhmm. But now I don't wanna be a hypocrite. I have done nothing for anybody except myself and my family. You know?
Will:Any benefit that came, that's great. I'm glad it helped. But I don't wanna be that guy that says, well, I just wanted the best for the community. That's not the way that was. I I was making self serving no.
Will:Not too expensive right now, but self serving decisions. How's this gonna look for me? So I don't wanna be a I'm I'm pleased that if we've benefited others, I'm pleased with it. But I'm not this I'm not that self serving or that oh, I am self serving. I'm not one of those options.
Harry:There's there's something to that.
Brett:Are you okay?
Harry:Sorry. I was just gonna say there's something to that. We spent a lot of time in the car the past few days and just having conversations like that around this just the very nature of kinda taking care of your own house or your, you know, your your own self and just the externalities of that is generally positive for everyone who comes into contact with you.
Will:Yeah. I hope I mean, some people probably say not.
Harry:Right.
Will:You know, I've I've fired people. I've put people in jail. I've sued people. You know, there's some there are people that would not agree with you.
Harry:Yeah.
Will:You know, but we we try to do I I think a good deal's gotta be good deal for everybody. Mhmm. I mean, it's gotta be good for me, employee, and the customer. So if you do that, you minimize the people that you have to fire or sue or put in jail or whatever.
Harry:Mhmm.
Brett:Beat up. Beat up. Sometimes. They still don't,
Will:maybe. Yeah.
Brett:Crazy. Is your wife very proud of everything that you all have built
Will:out here? Oh, she's so proud. Her babies came home. Yeah. And and she enjoys.
Will:My wife has never been, actively involved in the business. She's been a, school teacher, educator, consummate mother, consummate grandmother. They've been actively involved in the management of the business is certainly very interested in it. And and, has benefited. You know, we like I said, we got, five grandchildren here on the farm and two children here on the farm, and that's that's a blessing.
Brett:It's such a blessing. And the fact that you gave them the opportunity too, where you said in best case scenario, they'll all three of them will come back.
Will:And one did. And one did. And one did.
Brett:Because you gave them the choice to be able to do that.
Will:I mean, she she could do what she wanted. I I certainly wouldn't want to.
Brett:Mhmm. For you, what are you personally the most proud of with everything that you've built out here?
Will:Problem problem my children coming back. Yeah.
Harry:What sort of things do you want them to take away from what you've done, you know, here over the past several decades through your working with your father and then through to today? What sort of things do you want them to really stand behind and and be proud of as they continue to grow what you've built?
Will:Well, you know, those are personal decisions for them to make. But I feel like the, the com you know, again, the community, the land, the animals is is where it's at for us. And and the synergy that benefits, us and, happily others, but, you know, for us. I tell people that, you know, if if I give them a job, a personal job, and they say thank you. I said, you gotta find me.
Will:Mhmm. It's you know? Oh, yeah. I said, if I give you something I don't want, you ain't gotta say thank you. Yeah.
Brett:Well, we can definitely feel there there's a certain, it's like energy or power to to being out here, and it's you can listen to what we're talking about right now, but it's you don't get it until you fully come out here and see you give the tour and see the animals and see your family and just see the impact that you're having on the community. And I genuinely mean this. It's something that Harry and I wanna say. You've had a tremendous impact on both of us. I know you were buying your beef from White Oak Pastures.
Brett:We've read countless blogs that you've written about, and there are many other people that we're friends with that you've had a huge impact on. So just for us, knowing that we started this show, in March, we'd had corporate jobs. We'd quit them because we really wanted to go all in on this concept of building something from scratch and teaching people about food, getting to sit down with you, it's just an unbelievable feeling and a blessing, and I just appreciate you more than you know.
Will:Well, thank you. That's very kind and and heartening to hear. But, again, you thank him for something I didn't do for you. I did that for me. Mhmm.
Will:I'm very glad of any benefit that comes from it. But what what I what I wanna say about what you just said is, this is back on that deal about being scalable versus replicable. You know, if what we did here is special, it's so replicable. This was done by a c student from the University of Georgia College of Agriculture. You know, with and I had, economically, I had a a a inherited a farm that I could leverage.
Will:But no trust fund. You know, no no Bill Gates deal. So highly replicable. You can you know, if it's good, that's good. Let's do it again and again and again and again and again.
Will:And these people that are doing it are not my competitors. I wanna help them. Right.
Harry:Yeah. It's it's inspiring to see what you've done out here and just the message too is great. I mean, the idea I think everyone uses that word scale as the, like, the big question, with regenerative agates. And I think you just you kinda hit the nail on the head with we just need more people to be inspired by this message and go out and start doing some of the work themselves.
Will:You know, one of the first things, the scales. It's it's a hard word to use. And I use it because I differentiate between this versus big ag, big food. Right. But, we have a lot of people that that come here and want a homestead.
Will:And I think and which is super small scale. I think that's fine. I think that's great. I told this is not the best place to learn it. Because I, you know, I've I've never, you know, I've never, planted a garden.
Will:You know, mama used to let me work in the garden a little bit, and I hated the other day today. And I never milked a cow. I made butter. I milked a cow that had mastitis. I need to get the the infection out.
Will:You know, this is not the place you can learn homesteading, although I I respect it and I support it. Certainly, this is not the place to come to learn big industrial farm. There are, you know and it's not linear. It's not homesteading what we do, big industrial farm. Spatially, it's out here on the table.
Will:Different. Right. Very different.
Brett:You seem like you very humbly know the things that you're good at versus what's not in your skill set, and you'll tell people that.
Will:Well, I'm arrogant enough to talk about what I'm good at, and I had my nose rubbed in the shit enough to know what I'm not good at. So
Harry:Awesome. Well, just echoing what Brett said, our butts would not be in the seat if it wasn't for you. So just appreciate everything you've done here, and, thanks for your amazing hospitality down here for this, day that we've been down here. And the time that we spent in September was really special for us to get down here.
Will:So Well, thank you for making the long trip from Austin twice, and I hope you'll do it, again and again and again. Always welcome.
Brett:That's the plan. Thank you.
Will:Alright. See you.
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