#163: Transforming Women's Health featuring Kaely McDevitt
Haley, welcome to the show.
Haley:Thanks so much for having me, guys.
Brett:Oh, we're so pumped to have you on. We were, we were saying we're having a good little conversation prior to hitting the record button, and you speak to so many of the topics that we're interested in covering. And most of the people that listen to the show are men, but there are a number of women that listen to the show that want us to talk more about hormone health, understanding how your diet can affect your hormone health, birth control, a lot of the topics that you're an expert in that we've been learning about you from. You know, you're you're an expert on those topics, so we're just pumped to learn more about your story and kinda dig into all those things today.
Haley:Yeah. I'm pumped for it too and just so excited that you guys wanna cover this. And it's not often that I get to speak to a primarily male audience, so this is just I've been pumped about this for weeks.
Harry:Well, it it was clear to me when we first met. So we met at Rome Ranch, and you started talking about your interests when we were sitting across from each other at that picnic table after the bison harvest. I'm like, we need to get Kaylee on the podcast. Right? Like
Brett:You did say that.
Harry:This is a must.
Brett:Awesome. Who do we have on
Speaker 4:was it, do you know Danelle Randall?
Haley:She That sounds familiar
Brett:to you. By Cervical I think it's, like, Cervical Wellness on Instagram.
Haley:Okay.
Harry:And
Brett:that was, like, the first episode that we really did doing a deep dive on, just women's health and hormone health. And people were like, you need to do a lot more on this. So it's just cool to see people like you that are gaining more notoriety and seeing your social media following grow because it seems like there's been this massive just, like, resurgence the last few years and just questioning what we've been doing from a birth control perspective, how we eat, all these different topics that you've been aware of far before any of it was mainstream.
Haley:Totally. It's been awesome to see that interest grow and just more conversations and dialogue and podcast platforms that have been it's great.
Harry:Yeah. Maybe as a starting point, I'd love to learn a little bit more about how you got interested into all this because Sure. I feel like usually they come out of a story of some sort of, like, desperation and needing to find the right answers for themselves, and then they wanna share people wanna share with everyone else. So curious to hear how you got got into this.
Haley:For sure. Yeah. So I went to school. I was at James Madison University. Oh, nice.
Haley:Your younger brother was yeah.
Harry:Right. Yeah.
Brett:Shout out to me.
Haley:Yes. And I picked dietetics because I wanted to work in sports nutrition. I grew up being an athlete. I was really interested in performance nutrition, and I was like, cool. This is what I'm gonna do.
Haley:And to be a dietitian, you have to do a year long clinical internship in the hospital before you can sit for your boards. And I get to this internship and I'm like, this is the worst thing. I mean, we're making no impact. We're talking to people really late into the disease state. We're basically confused with the dietary staff, so they think I'm there to take their order for food.
Haley:They're not really listening. And we're using ridiculously outdated information to educate patients. It was like low fat, low cholesterol, low saturated fat stuff. And at the same time, I started to have a lot of hormone health issues myself. And I was put on birth control, like, almost as soon as I started having my period in high school because they were so symptomatic.
Haley:And I was seeing doctor after doctor being like, I I don't feel like myself. I don't know how to explain it, but something's off here. And I was getting gaslit every time I brought this up. And it was like, no. That can't be it.
Haley:But here's an antidepressant, if you want that. Or we could try an anti anxiety medication. And so I kept trying different types of birth control because I was like, I'm bound to find something that really works for me and never really did. And, you know, conclude my education, take my boards to become a dietitian. And I'm like seven years into higher education in the health field at this point and have no understanding of how the female body works.
Haley:I couldn't explain how birth control works. I didn't know anything about hormones or how my nutrition could play into that. So I ended up just spending all of my free time educating myself. And once I learned how birth control worked, I was like, no wonder I don't feel like me. I'm completely disconnected from me.
Brett:Yeah.
Haley:So I took myself off of it and was trying to apply the outdated nutrition advice from school to no avail. So essentially had a pretty bumpy road back to my own hormone production and myself. And by the time I made it to the other side of that, I started chronicling this on a blog because I needed an outlet, and then realized how many other women were dealing with the same thing. And there was really no information out there at that time. This was about, you know, ten or twelve years ago.
Haley:And really never looked back from women's health at that point. And just have become so passionate about putting education out there in the hands of as many people as possible because that's our path to freedom is understanding yourself and knowing that you've got more options. And if you don't feel like you, you're right about that no matter what anybody else has to say.
Brett:Yeah. It's a great story. And it seems like for you, you intuitively felt that there was something wrong with birth control. It didn't sit well with your body. Yeah.
Brett:I don't think there it sounds like there wasn't a ton of literature, but you kinda took this leap of faith and took yourself off of it. Were there any resources that were available that you kinda leaned in on at the time in, like, what is this, like, 02/2012, '2 thousand '13 maybe?
Haley:Yeah. Yeah. It was around that time. There's a book called Taking Charge of Your Fertility, which should definitely be, like, required reading in health classes. And then The Period Repair Manual by doctor Laura Bryden is another really wonderful read.
Haley:So those were solid resources for me as I was kind of starting to open my mind to there being different options and different possibilities. And there's a little bit, at the time, a little bit of research on hormonal birth control, not a ton, but it's definitely there enough to help me form the argument that that wasn't a fit for me. And even just exploring the ridiculously huge package insert inside a birth control kit, is pretty illuminating, I guess, of the potential side effects there that were never communicated.
Harry:Why do we kinda overlook those side effects? I feel like it's just gotten so normalized to just assume that you're gonna take birth control as a female at, like, 14 or 15 years old.
Haley:Yeah. I I think, you know, we've lost the ability to critically think. And I I look back at my education, and that really wasn't something that I got from school. It was, here's the information as we understand it, memorize this for the test, and that was kind of it. So So I think there's there's an issue with education and how we approach problem solving and the fact that we can have a different opinion than somebody else.
Haley:Yeah. And then we've also really trained people, and it seems women are especially susceptible to this to outsource our power to someone that feels like a position of authority. So if I see a doctor and they're like, hey. You have these symptoms. Here's a solution.
Haley:I'm like, well, they're the expert. They know. And then never give it another thought.
Brett:Yeah. And it's scary too because we're trained to just kinda blanket take all the advice from our doctor and listen to it. And if they get you on three, four different types of prescriptions or a certain type of birth control, you're just taught, Oh, you need to follow this, as opposed to critically thinking and maybe thinking about diet and lifestyle as a form of a preventative cure. Totally. So so I'm just curious, like, for for women that are listening to this, what do you think they should be aware of in terms of the potentially negative effects of their birth control?
Haley:Yeah. So there are a couple different types on the market, and I predominantly speak about hormonal birth control, which is the most common. So the pill option and some IUDs are hormonal too. And those are designed to shut off ovulation. That's how it's preventing an unwanted pregnancy.
Haley:And understanding the menstrual cycle and, like, the rise and fall of key hormones, we know that ovulation is, like, the pivotal event in the month that all hormone production is centered around. So if we block ovulation, we block hormones. And hormones influence how we metabolize our food. They influence our energy, our personality, who we might be attracted to as a mate. And if we shut off hormone production, we've now shut off, you know, an aspect of ourselves.
Haley:And then we're also adding synthetic hormones into the mix, which have their own negative impacts there too. So knowing that there's a trade off here. If we wanna use it to suppress ovulation, we lose our hormones and their side effects with that. We've got synthetic hormones coming into play, which affect, you know, insulin sensitivity and even hair loss, mood, and, even sex drive. And those are all very significant symptoms for a healthy female.
Haley:So, I mean, we could rattle off side of potential side effects for, like, three hours today. I won't bore you guys with that, but there's a lot to unpack.
Harry:Let's take a minute to talk about some of the sponsors and brands who support the show.
Brett:What are you thinking?
Harry:I I was thinking about Carnivore Bar. What what are your thoughts on Carnivore Bar?
Speaker 4:I mean, it's unbelievable. It's an unbelievable product. We were lucky enough to have the founder, Philip Meese, on the show a few months ago, and he was able to send us a bunch of product when we started the relationship and absolutely loved it. I mean, you know, it's minimum ingredient product, beef, tallow, salt. And then they do have a honey flavored option as well, but it's so nice to have a bar that's, like, three to four ingredients.
Speaker 4:And, like, when you're following a carnivore diet, it's really tough to find products that are in line with that specific diet.
Harry:You know? Yeah. For me, it kinda hits, like, the holy trinity of what you're looking for when you're looking for food. So it's nutrient dense, it's convenient, and it tastes great. And as you said, most people who are trying to eat healthy, the convenience factor is kind of a a tough part.
Harry:So just being able to have something you can grab on the go, know that you're gonna have that nutrition for the day, it's huge.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And we we were lucky enough. We got to actually see their factory too in Missouri, and they're just doing things the right way. I love how they offer an option for, like, carnivore purists where it's just beef, tallow, salt. And then they also have an animal based option too if you do want a little bit of sweetness, a little bit of variety.
Speaker 4:They have a honey in that option. And they're just people that are doing things the right way. They're very mission focused. They're carnivores themselves. And, you know, we're always on the go.
Speaker 4:We're traveling. We've taken a bunch of flights together to have a bar that has 30 grams of fat too. Like, that's huge from an energy density standpoint. Right?
Harry:Yeah. He checks all the boxes or the company checks all the boxes, and I just think the fact that they're sourcing from a regenerative farm as well and Joyce Farms, just a win win. %. So Carnivore Bar. So we got the affiliate link, and then it's code mafia for 10% off.
Harry:And then another one of our sponsors, one of our favorite farms, Holy Cow, what what they're doing, Holy Cow is is pretty remarkable. The relationships that they've built, in the industry and how long they've been doing the grass fed, grass finished regenerative model is really, innovative. They were one of the first people, to be doing that and supplying Whole Foods early on. Just a a great, community farm and also just product is something that speaks for itself.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I think number one to your point, Harry, they're just incredible people. We got to hear them speak at the beef initiative conference in Colorado. We had never met them before, but just hearing Warren's story where they were following a standard American diet, He had had a heart attack, and they were just looking for answers of, like, how can we actually get healthier? Do I need to be dependent on medication?
Speaker 4:And they started changing their diets to incorporating more animal foods, and he completely reversed those symptoms of his stroke. And now they're just doing things the right way. They're they're grass finishing their beef. They're incorporating incredible practices. They have great relationships with the animals, and they're very passionate about just, like, connecting directly with the customer and also educating their customer on grass finished beef.
Harry:Yeah. I think the best part is too, they're shipping nationally and trying to reach a bigger audience. So being able to not only supply beef nationally, but also educate people on the the quality of good, clean, whole foods is just it's an incredible mission.
Speaker 4:How much do you love their beef bacon, by the way? I know that's your go to. It's one of the best things
Harry:I've ever tasted. It's that good? No. Honest to god, it's so good. Holy cow.
Harry:Yeah. One of the other farms that supports us is perennial pastures, another regenerative farm out of San Diego. Our experience with Kevin Munoz, the owner, we had him on the show, a young first generation rancher who's really empowered by this movement of regenerative agriculture and really wants to be a leader in the space. I think our conversation with him was so insightful just in terms of how mission focused he is and how he really thinks about his farm as a business and wanting it to be here fifty, a hundred years down the road even though he's just the first generation of it. And I think just being able to spend time with him out in San Diego was kind of the perfect indication of that where we got to go have a meal with him at his house, hang out with his wife and kids.
Harry:Like, what an amazing person, and I think his mission focus around raising really high quality beef and restoring nutrients to the soil is just one of one of those rare missions that I think everyone can get around.
Speaker 4:Yeah. He has such a commitment to really feeding the local community in San Diego in the San Diego County First and foremost, but he's also passionate about feeding the community around the country. So I know they've invested a lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of resources to being able to order beef in bulk on their website. So I now I know that they now offer quarter half whole cows directly directly off the website. They have that great ancestral blend ground beef product, so it actually has organ grinds mixed into the ground beef.
Speaker 4:So you're getting the benefits of, like, an ounce or so of organ meat. But because it's in the ground beef, you really can't taste it at all. And I think to your point, Harry, just an another amazing person, you know, he Kev was someone that he was following a paleo diet in college and started realizing, wow. When I nourish my body with real foods, I feel amazing. Had a really successful stint in tech, but realized that there was just something else that he was passionate about.
Speaker 4:So he's one of those rare cases where, you know, he put his money where his mouth is, and he's a first generation farmer just, you know, bootstrapping this thing, raising money, and just so passionate about feeding the community. Just an amazing guy.
Harry:Yeah. Absolutely. What are your thoughts on organ supplements, and what do you think about the company that supports our podcast, Optimal Carnivore?
Speaker 4:Such a good question, man. I think organ meat is something that's gained a ton of notoriety the last few years, and for good reason. I don't wanna speak for you, but I think both of us have had a ton of benefits just incorporating organ meats into our diet. I would say that, you know, we definitely prefer the raw source of organs where we'll just, you know, chop up some liver and some heart and, you know, there are different ways to prepare it. I think the raw source is the most nutrient dense.
Speaker 4:But, you know, we're fortunate that there are companies like Optimal Carnivore that exist that freeze dry organ capsules so you can actually take them on the go. You know, there there are a ton of times where we're traveling where we're not gonna have access to to raw organs, so we can just I can throw a little ziplock bag together of of optimal carnivore and be good to go. And I think six pills is an ounce of organs, which is, like, the daily recommended amount that will give you a lot of those really good quality vitamins in there. So that's kinda how I think we've been using it. What am I done missing anything there?
Harry:No. I I think that the fact that it it just makes organs accessible to people, and I think that organs are generally just a food group that are underutilized when it comes to eating nose to tail. And the nature's vitamin is a perfect name for these organ, foods. And I think a lot of people are pretty, you know, in the mainstream object to eating, organ meats. But when you put in a pill form, it's doesn't taste bad.
Harry:It's convenient. You can put it in your backpack. It makes things a lot easier. And I also think that just generally, these brands are Popsicle and Carnivore is focused on making people healthier, which is just such a strong mission. And, you know, I think liver capsules is a great way to get people thinking about their health differently.
Speaker 4:A %. There's there's probably someone that's listening to this right now, and you're interested in organ meats, but the taste might make you a bit squeamish. You feel strange about eating raw foods. Maybe you cook liver and you don't like it. Maybe it has a metallic taste.
Speaker 4:I think that's also where the organ capsules play such a great role is that you're still getting that nutrient density, but you're getting it in a very convenient capsule like format, and it just takes away any of that squeamishness that you might have to the taste. It's, you know, it's just a great product. And, also, Richard, who runs Optimal Carnivore, you know, he's he's started listening to the show really early on, and he's built his own organ supply chain and is just doing things the right way and really trying to support the right people in the space. So just proud to be associated with them, honestly.
Harry:Yeah. Absolutely. Thanks for listening. Now we're gonna go back to the show. Can you talk about just the cycle in general?
Harry:Because I think a a lot of guys and girls don't really realize that fertility is kind of a tight window in a lot of, like, respects. And they just think that, you know, you're gonna get pregnant as soon as you you, like, any time of the month. And that's just not the case. So curious to get your opinion on that.
Haley:Yeah. I'm glad you asked because that was the takeaway from health class in middle school, I think, for all of us. It was like, well, you can get pregnant at any moment. Mhmm. And, like, your menstrual cycle is gonna be a nuisance.
Haley:And the good news is we have something that can shut that off, you know, hormonal birth control. So our path to sovereignty with hormones in mind is understanding how this works. And knowing that in a roughly twenty eight day menstrual cycle, there's only six days where you could possibly get pregnant in the whole month. Mhmm. And it starts making you think like, oh, I guess, you know, birth control isn't my only option for preventing unwanted pregnancy.
Haley:It's just six days that we're talking about. It's not the entire understanding yourself and coming into partnership with your body and knowing that, you know, each week we have a different you know, each week we have a different hormone environment for women. You boys have roughly the same hormones day in and day out for the majority of your life if you're eating well, which we'll get into that too. But for women, this changes so much from week to week, and it impacts everything from metabolism to energy to even the way your brain works. So if you want, I can walk you through kind of that twenty eight days in terms of what's happening hormonally if that would be helpful.
Harry:That would be amazing. Yeah. Okay.
Haley:Cool. So day one of a menstrual cycle is the day one of a period. So we're counting from the same perspective here, and there's some confusion around that. So day one is day one of period. And from that point to ovulation is about two weeks.
Haley:And this is called the follicular phase, and it's called that because follicles in the ovaries are maturing and getting ready to release an egg at ovulation. And we've got a rise of estrogen that's happening at this time, which is what speaks to the brain. And then we release some pituitary hormones and ovulation happens. Now after ovulation, we enter the luteal phase where that follicle becomes a gland called the corpus luteum and makes a % of the progesterone we will have for that entire month only if ovulation happened. And that's roughly two weeks, and it will either end in pregnancy or the start of the next period.
Haley:So that fertile window is just the six days around ovulation when there could potentially be sperm meeting egg at that point. Mhmm.
Harry:So when you're blocking ovulation, are you not getting the progesterone that you need? Yes. So birth control is essentially affecting your progesterone?
Haley:Exactly. It shuts that off completely. There's no progesterone production when you're on birth control.
Harry:How is that possible? Because isn't that a fundamental harm like a building block hormone in the body?
Haley:Yeah. I mean, it's hugely important. And I'm particularly passionate about progesterone because if you look at the state of health today, it looks like a progesterone deficiency because progesterone is stimulating to our metabolism. It's, a calming, soothing, sleep promoting, just like at ease and in touch with your body kind of hormone when we contrast that with estrogen. And taking hormonal birth control because it interferes with that brain ovary communication means no progesterone's getting made.
Haley:So we are ripe for anxiety, for low libido, for weight gain, for thyroid issues without progesterone's influence, potentially for decades.
Brett:Wow. So you're just suppressing that by being on birth control? Yep. Do you know how long it takes, like, for someone that decides to get off birth control, for a woman that gets off birth control, how long it will take for the body to start to make progesterone again?
Haley:That's a great question, and it varies so much in my experience. I mean, it can be as soon as, you know, three months post getting off the birth control. Mhmm. It can be a year. It can be two.
Haley:And a lot of that has to do with nutrient reserves and the health of the individual and the length of time someone was on birth control.
Brett:Got it. Mhmm. Kaylee, how do you think about approaching the different stages of your life in terms of nutrition, exercise, just general lifestyle depending on where you are in your cycle?
Haley:Yeah. I think, you know, I think fundamentally, we don't have to get that specific. You know, just for general optimal health, we can we can eat and move roughly the same way throughout the month. But if we're already in good health and we're looking to just tweak that or optimize it a little bit more, we can start to adjust the training style or the macronutrient distribution based on, are we estrogen predominant in the follicular phase, or do we have a lot of progesterone cruising in our system in the luteal? And if you practice listening to that intuition and listening to what kinds of foods am I gravitating toward, what kind of movement sounds really good to me, you'll notice that it naturally falls into those recommendations of, like, higher intensity, maybe setting some PRs in the gym in the first half of the cycle.
Haley:Mhmm. And then lower intensity, maybe more restorative walks, yoga, that kind of stuff in the second half.
Harry:What sort of benefits do you see people having as they transition off of birth control into just kind of a a more intuitive or, like, ancestral way of approaching their diet and lifestyle?
Haley:Yeah. I think I think the biggest thing is that you're coming back home to yourself and we'd no longer have chemicals blocking your own hormone production and really blocking your your personality in a lot of ways. I share funny memes and tweets about this where it's like, oh, look, the personality that's been suppressed for the last thirteen years, but it's funny and also true. You know? Hormones are, like, how we interact with the world around us.
Haley:And if we've had a fake hormone environment for decades, I mean, we're just meeting ourselves for the first time
Brett:at that point.
Haley:So it feels like a coming home when you come off birth control and you're getting to know yourself and establishing that connection and trust. And then we can start to actually be more intuitive with the foods that we eat
Harry:and
Haley:choosing things that are actually nourishing because we know that they are. We don't need someone else to tell us.
Brett:Mhmm. Mhmm. You you mentioned how in school you were basically taught to follow this low fat diet. Basically, like, blunts your intuition because you're just eating so much processed crap. What were some of the foods that you started incorporating or just your general style of eating that you adopted to really make you feel your best and develop that intuition?
Haley:Yeah. It was kind of a slow unraveling from a a bit of brainwashing that happened in school. And I remember being pretty concerned about how often I ate eggs because we were we were scared of cholesterol back then when I was in school. But eggs were cheap and really fast to make, and I was a broke grad student at the time, so I was eating a ton of eggs. And loosening the the fear around eggs was a part of that, bringing in more red meat.
Haley:So for whatever reason, we grew up in my household not eating much red meat. My mom didn't digest it well, which is a common thing you actually hear from women. And it it's not that case, but it's a really, really common thing. And so I started to bring in some red meat. I started to look at the quality of the meat that I was buying, which, has become a huge focus of my life and why we've met at regenerative agriculture events.
Haley:And then I read the book Deep Nutrition by Katherine Shanahan a couple years ago. I've read it again since then, and it is like an ancestral look at nutrition for fertility mostly. And bringing in organ meats, bringing in raw dairy, reducing the amount of grains and, like, just ridiculous quantities of raw vegetables in my diet. Those things were just so helpful for me feeling good, feeling great every day, and then developing that trust that I actually know how my body likes to eat, and I don't need to follow somebody else's prescription for that.
Harry:Can you speak to the relationship between women and red meat and cholesterol in general? Because I I think there's for whatever reason, it seems to be more of, like, a masculine thing when you talk about eating meat and women kind of, like, steer clear of it.
Haley:Yeah. Yeah. I know. You're right about that. There is always, like, a more masculine eating steak kind of, connotation.
Haley:And I think I think this is probably back from our fat fearing couple of decades that we had, and we were like, oh, a steak has a lot of saturated fat in it. If I wanna maintain my feminine figure, I must be looking for some leaner, like, poultry, for example. So we have some misinformation around fats and their effect on the body. And then if we've been avoiding those types of foods, particularly if that's created a lot of nutrient deficiencies, which it absolutely does, we see this in practice every day. We now aren't even able to make the digestive enzymes and the stomach acid to break that down.
Haley:So we might try to eat some red meat, and then it's not sitting well. We don't feel good, and we take that to mean, oh, that's not a good fit for me. It's not good for me, and we never go back to it. And I hinted at that with my mom. She doesn't tolerate red meat.
Haley:Well, if you don't use it, you lose it in terms of these enzymes. And if we're nutrient deficient because we haven't been eating it, we don't have raw materials to help with digestion. So it creates a bit of a vicious cycle.
Brett:Wow. So a lot of women might think that they're intolerant to red meat, but a lot of it's because they're actually avoiding it, so they're losing those, those enzymes that you talked about?
Haley:Yep. Enzymes and, minerals primarily, since red meat's so mineral rich.
Brett:That's so interesting.
Harry:How
Brett:do you feel about, like, macronutrient breakdowns for women and, you know, grams of carbohydrates? Because I feel like there's this I don't know if it's a misconception, but it seems very contentious of, like, there are certain women that say that you need to have carbohydrates, particularly depending on where you are in your cycle. But then we've also had a lot of women on that have gone carnivore, animal based Sure. And have felt amazing with zero carbs. So I'm just curious what your perspective is on that.
Haley:Yeah. For sure. And I've done a lot of personal experimentation over the years and serve a wide variety of clients that have different eating styles. And, you know, my client population is childbearing years, trying to get pregnant, or handling other hormone issues or coming off birth control. So they're typically in a pretty nutrient deeply state when they get to me.
Haley:And our main goal at that point is to be as gentle on the body as possible. We want stable blood sugar. We want nourishment. We want the body to feel safe because that's how we make sure that we ovulate. So we tend to be a pretty, like, middle of the road on carbohydrates.
Haley:I think they're necessary to some degree in women's health for childbearing years because making and releasing insulin is part of that whole pituitary hormone release for ovulation. So we see long term, like, keto or long term low carb eventually causing problems with ovulation in the clients that we serve. But then there's issues on the other end of that spectrum too. So we care about the types of carbs that we're talking about, and we wanna stick to things like fruit, honey, and things that are really nutrient rich for us and easy to digest. The standard American diet access to carbohydrates is a very different conversation, and there's room to bring that way down in conversations about quality too.
Haley:So we tend to be somewhere in the middle of the road, like 50 grams a day when we're trying to restore ovulation.
Harry:Are there any lifestyle components that you try to speak to your clients about when it comes to fertility?
Haley:For sure. I think, you know, human modern humans essentially live in captivity. Right? Like, we're inside. We're on screens.
Haley:We have no connection to nature anymore. We sit with really bad posture, so we can't even breathe deeply.
Harry:It's crazy.
Haley:So we talk a lot about that. It's like nutrition is obviously my main expertise and we we get there, but there's so many other things in life that make a huge impact on health. So spending time outside, finding ways to connect with your food and connect with nature again, breathing correctly, which we were never taught to do, but seems fundamental. Playing, being in community, exercise, see the sun. So there's, I mean, there's so many things lifestyle wise that have to be part of that conversation.
Brett:What do you think a woman should be thinking about in terms of prepping herself for fertility? How should she be eating or approaching her life to really make sure that she's able to get pregnant? Because it almost seems like it's a rarity to be able to get pregnant now.
Haley:I know. It does it definitely does seem like that. And I think what you mentioned is is the key. We need to be thinking about that. There's not much conscious conception going on right now.
Haley:We just decide, okay, now is the time I wanna be pregnant. I guess I'll come off birth control today. And then if I don't get pregnant immediately, cool. We have fertility treatment options now, which are on the rise. So we need to be thinking about this in advance from a nutrient standpoint.
Haley:Because if you are a woman, you're the one carrying the baby, you're the one handing all the nutrients down, and your baby inherits just mitochondrial DNA from the mother. So if we're looking at a generational impact, like, this is a huge responsibility. It is not something to be taken lightly, and we need a good six to twelve months of preparing our nutrient stores before we even entertain this.
Brett:Yeah.
Haley:And with that comes coming off birth control in ample notice of getting pregnant. Mhmm. That's not something that we can recover from instantaneously. So ideally, again, six to twelve months at least coming off birth control, really nourishing yourself, sticking with an ancestral approach to eating because that is the most nutrient rich food we can find. Living life like humans are supposed to, like managing stress, being outside, and then entering into that season.
Brett:Did you did you get to see that documentary Nourished by Heart and Soil?
Haley:I did.
Brett:How so for anyone that hasn't seen it, it's a free twenty minute documentary on YouTube Yeah. And probably the most telling part we were actually with Heart and Soil yesterday.
Haley:Oh, cool.
Brett:They said that they didn't even know that this like, that's probably the most well known part of the whole feature is, like, this two minute clip where they have the midwife, and she shows you the vegetarian placenta versus the animal based placenta. And the vegetarian mother placenta is, like, dull, pinkish
Harry:You said it was calcified too. Calcified,
Brett:where it's like the animal based mom. It was like a like a dark, rich, ruby red. Yeah. It's It's like the food choices that you're making aren't just affecting you. They're affecting your child as well.
Brett:So fascinating.
Haley:That was so cool because we obviously suspect it to be different between a really nourished, like, animal based diet and a vegetarian one, but I've never seen a side by side placenta comparison. That was really cool that they did that.
Harry:Yeah. Are there any nutrients that you see consistently across the board people being deficient in?
Haley:Yeah. So minerals are a big thing. And this is kind of what got me in interested in regenerative agriculture is we do a lot of mineral testing for our clients. And, like, everyone is really depleted in minerals. And minerals are how we run our enzymes.
Haley:They're how we turn food into energy. They're also how we handle stress and maintain a really flexible nervous system. So being deficient is a big deal. And I was like, okay. Well, if everybody's eating well, you know, our typical client population isn't new to health and wellness by the time they see us.
Haley:Like, why is everybody so deficient? And then you have to think, where are these minerals coming from? So they're the animals that we eat, the plants that those animals ate, and then the soil it was grown in. And if we look at the data on soil mineral depletion, I mean, it's pretty scary. So then I was like, oh god.
Haley:We have to start looking at this in a much deeper fashion. This isn't a matter of just picking out the good things at the grocery store. It's knowing a lot more about that whole ecosystem that it was a part of. So minerals are a really big deal. So I'm talking about, you know, sodium, potassium, magnesium, zinc, and copper primarily.
Haley:And then vitamin a is another big one for women's health, for fertility, for optimal health. We see it deficient almost always, and we can only get vitamin a in that active form from animal products.
Brett:Wow. Have you gotten to see any tangible data on a patient that is eating a grain finished animal versus a grass fed finished animal? And are there any noticeable differences from your perspective on sourcing your food?
Haley:That would be really, really great data to get. I I don't think I have anything concrete there, but we definitely do have, you know, first test to last test type of data to compare. And we're looking to see these key nutrients rebound, which we do as a result of the work. And part of the work that we do is talking about quality and sourcing and, the ecosystem that that whole product came from. And even the energetics behind really well raised, well lived animals that we're consuming, I don't know that we'll ever see that in science documented as melt as well as nutrients, but I think that there's something to that as well.
Haley:And so we see, you know, vitamin a status recover. We see iodine levels recover. We see vitamin e and all of these minerals, which are gonna be so much more abundant from grass fed animals than grain. Mhmm. So it'd be cool to get some research on that for sure.
Harry:Have you seen a lot of patients come to you who have had, been practicing a vegan diet and struggling with fertility?
Haley:Yes. Yeah. And that's it's hard. So we used to take on vegan clients if they wanted to work with us. And then we got to a point where we were so like, our hands were so tied with what we could do to help that I just ended up turning those types of clients away to colleagues that, maybe had a more plant based approach.
Haley:It was just such a mismatch for our philosophy. So we've had a lot of people that were previously vegan or vegetarian, have decided that's not a fit for them because it's wrecked their hormones, and then they reach out to us. And by far and large, they're the most nutrient depleted that we see in our clients because they've had years or decades of losing some of those key nutrients. So typically, by the time they see us, they're starting to incorporate animal products again. So it's like, you know, full speed ahead on nutrient repletion, but, there's a big difference in health, typically.
Brett:It does seem like there's this perspective in the vegan community that you can make up for any nutrient deficiencies by taking synthetic vitamins. I'd love to just hear your perspective on that.
Haley:Yeah. I mean, I wish that was the case. Right? Like, things would be a lot easier, but, you know, nature knows what it's doing. And when we get an actual nutrient from an actual food, it comes with all of its buddies.
Haley:Like, it's cofactors that help with absorption and help with utilization. And the form really matters too. And we can't mimic that in a lab. Like, we don't have the technology to match what nature is doing. And particularly with vitamin a, since that comes up so much and this is, a nutrient that is in retinol or the active form or beta carotene, which is the plant form.
Haley:Those are completely different for the body. And we have to convert beta carotene to retinol for it to even make a difference. And most people don't convert that very well. So if you're vegetarian and you're taking plant based supplements, you're only gonna see this in in the beta carotene form or synthetic form, and it's not a match. It's not even close to a match to to what you would get from food.
Harry:Can you talk about organ meats? Because you mentioned vitamin a and Yeah. Some other, minerals that I think are very abundant in organ meats. And I'm curious how you think about them and incorporating them in your practice. Yeah.
Haley:I think I think organ meats are important for the nutrient density. I mean, vitamin a, since that's top of mind, is so high in liver specifically. It's also a really great source of copper, which is a an important mineral for a variety of reasons like energy production and the way we move and use iron. And there's a huge handoff of copper to baby during the third trimester of pregnancy, and we have to have vitamin a around to do it. So the the nutrient profile of liver just seems like a perfect food for fertility and for pregnancy if we look at the breakdown of of nutrients.
Haley:And the the typical Western diet is to, like, turn up our noses at organ meats. Like, the texture is weird. We're not used to the taste because we didn't grow up eating it. But we're missing out on so many wonderful nutrients. And it's like the most concentrated form of nutrients we can find in food if we contrast that with muscle meat.
Brett:Yes.
Haley:And not to mention it's a nose to tail practice, so we're respecting and honoring the entire animal when we incorporate organ meats too. So we're big, big fans.
Brett:Do you incorporate it every day or a few times a week, or what do you think about that for cadence?
Haley:Yeah. Usually a few times a week. If somebody is in a really nutrient depleted state, we will do that with more frequency. And my preference is typically to get the actual food if we can and they're willing to eat it. Mhmm.
Haley:There's a learning curve with learning how to prepare that because it's totally different than muscle meat. But there are some great companies out there, like Heart and Soil is one of them too with desiccated high quality, organ meat options that can make getting that on a more routine basis so much easier. You're not having to cook something either. So, we incorporate it at least a couple times a week, if not every day, if someone's really depleted.
Brett:And you were saying that there's an actual handoff of copper from the mother to the baby too?
Haley:Yep. Wow. Yes. There is because it's that big of a deal. Copper's involved in our mitochondria in the development of new vasculature and connective tissue.
Haley:And it's also how we access and move iron around the body, so red blood cells and oxygen delivery. So it's, I mean, a crucial developmental mineral, and we can't move it around in the absence of vitamin a.
Harry:Got it. Have you read Morley Robbins' book?
Haley:Oh, yes.
Harry:Yeah. It's so good.
Haley:Yeah. It's great.
Harry:He talks about that all the time, copper and iron's relationship. And, he also talks about how iron overload is a real issue in society where a lot of people are feeling fatigued, but they really are experiencing too much iron in their in their blood. And so I'm curious. Do do you get that fatigue, element of people coming in being like, I'm right down. I don't feel right.
Harry:Is that a common
Haley:symptom? Probably a hundred percent of our clients. It's like this hypometabolic state. You know, we're not making energy well. We're not clearing exhaust, and we're just kinda moving through life in slow motion.
Haley:And Morley's work was really influential to the way I practice because I, for so many years, was seeing iron deficiency, like, all the time in people's labs. And I'm like, this doesn't make any sense. Everybody's taking iron. You know, you can get enough iron each day from, like, a tiny piece of steak. You know, this isn't hard to come by in in our society.
Haley:So why the hell is everybody deficient in iron? Yeah. And his work helped us really zoom out and look at that whole process. And it's not just about iron. It's very much about copper and vitamin a so that we can move it around the body and not accumulate excess in tissues where it starts to create rampant oxidative stress and cause that fatigue and brain fog and health issues long term.
Haley:So, yeah, see it a lot.
Brett:Kaylee, one of the things that you'd mentioned prior to us hitting record is that you've been in private practice for six years. And I'm just curious, you know, it's a it's a six years isn't a huge period of time, but I feel like things are rapidly changing so much in context of our health. Have you seen any, like, concerning trends arise with your clients over that that six year window?
Haley:Yeah. And they they come and go. I mean, we had, like, a whole 30 moment for a long time. We had, like, complete carb fearing moments. We've had a lot of fat fearing moments and a lot of, like, plant based stuff come around.
Haley:And, like, no one is more vicious in the comments or the DMs than than the vegan. They're wild.
Harry:They're monsters.
Haley:Yeah. Oh, they don't feel well. Yeah. So, yeah, I I guess it comes and goes. I think one of the most concerning trends that I've just seen overall, especially as we've moved through the pandemic over the last couple years, is just this, like, outsourcing our power to other people.
Haley:And if we think about a fundamental life skill, like, feeding yourself has to be on that list. Like, we all have to do it to survive. And it's not you know, we can't outsource that. We can't say this is up for someone else to tell me how to do this. I don't wanna think about this.
Haley:I don't wanna put in the effort to prepare these foods. I'd rather take something convenient. And it's like, if food is how we give information to ourselves and our DNA and how we interact with our world, we can't make that quick. We can't make that easy, like, should we want to. So I think what I see the most concerning with my clients is they're really stressed.
Haley:They've got a lot going on in their lives. They're not feeling well, but they want to make food decisions easy. They want somebody else to tell them what they what to do. They want a meal plan, and it's like rewiring that relationship to food and taking ownership for that because, you know, nobody's coming to save you at the end of the day. It's up to you.
Harry:If you had to say how like, break down in different buckets, like lifestyle and diet, like, how would you, like, allocate your energy? Where would you prioritize your energy first and foremost when you're trying to make these changes?
Haley:Yeah. Between, like, diet and lifestyle. Yeah. I mean, maybe fifty fifty. Nutrition is big, of course.
Haley:Like, we have to be putting good inputs if we want good outputs. But the way we're living and moving is a big deal too. We can be eating really well and not managing our stress and still tanking our mineral status. So it has to be both. And that's probably been the biggest thing that's changed in the way I practice over the years.
Haley:I used to be very focused on the nitty gritty details of nutrients and the foods and really not pay attention to anything else because I'm like, well, that's outside of my my area of expertise. But, you know, we are not designed to live the way that we're living now, and it creates Yeah. Deficiencies in and of itself. So we have to look at both.
Brett:Yeah. I really loved what you were saying earlier just about not outsourcing your power when it comes to food. And you think about how important food really is in the context of your health and, like, our willingness to want convenience or optimize for taste the way that it's wrecking our health. And I think part of the reason why the three of us are so passionate is you realize what you're able to do when you're actually able to get your health under control, what it allows you to do from a business perspective or show up as as a wife or or a daughter or something like that. It's these are life changing alterations that are that you can have just by the the quality of the food that you're putting into your system.
Brett:Totally. It's like such a few it's such a small percentage of people that seem like they can understand that. So you just imagine. That's why we're so passionate about wanting to put this stuff out there.
Haley:Yeah. I'm appreciative to you guys for doing this and creating this platform because it's a message that needs to to get out, and I think you guys bring so much energy to it. You know? Like, you can just see how passionate you are about it, and listening to that is contagious. So it's it's really inspiring.
Brett:Yeah. But it's like a lot of that energy literally comes from the food that
Haley:we use
Brett:to nourish ourselves. That's why we're so we're so passionate about it. It's like, you know, this our our business is is this podcast, but you imagine you're working a corporate job and you're ordering out all your meals and then you imagine, you know, you start cooking your meals and prioritizing the right foods. That's sort of like an asset that's gonna continue to make money for you because you're gonna have more energy to perform your job at a high level and maybe you get promoted or maybe you show up to be, like, a better father and play catch with your kids. It's like there's so many things that getting your health in line can actually do for you long term.
Brett:Right?
Haley:Totally. And that like, the root of that is that you value yourself. You value this vessel you were given for this lifetime, and it's like a respect thing. Right? Like, once you know that, you can't do it differently.
Haley:And I think there's just a huge disconnect from people and themselves in our society today. Like, they're they're not connected. They're not in their body. They don't know how their hormones work. Mhmm.
Haley:They don't have the time or the mental space to even think about the food. And that shows up in every aspect of life. So food is such a great entry point to coming back into connection, to taking ownership, and then seeing that ripple out and affecting business, affecting relationships. It's a really cool thing.
Harry:Yeah. The complexity of the disconnect is profound. Right? Like, if you've been taking birth control since you were 13 or 14, you don't, do you really know where your baseline is at that point? Like, you're not even a mature adult at that point.
Harry:You don't even know what it feels like to be an adult.
Haley:And
Harry:then you start having relationships with other people. They're trying to support you. You don't know necessarily how you feel. So the complexity, I feel like, poses a ton of problems in just, like, your own life day to day life.
Haley:For sure. And even as men, I mean, that should be a pretty scary concept to hear. Right. And there was some recent somewhat recent research on birth control affecting, like, partner selection. Yes.
Haley:Like like scary. Wild. Right? So like what if you yeah. Like what if you marry someone and you think you know them, and then they come off birth control and they're like, not about it anymore?
Haley:Totally. So it, yeah, it it should definitely be a concern for men too.
Brett:Yeah. It's like so we're we're both from the Northeast, and I think you see a lot of, incredibly career oriented women, a lot of women that are on birth control. And then we, you know, we kinda got out of the Northeast and moved to Austin, and you're just exposed to a a different caliber of person. And you or more so, like, you get to just see the difference of, like, how a lot of people in Northeast are living and these, you know, these women that don't understand the value of of having a family, and they they throw everything into their career, and they're on birth control, and who knows how their judgment is affected with their with their partners. It's just, like, it's just so interesting to see the contrast between the two.
Haley:Yeah. I know. And it's it's even, like, a journey I can relate to as well. I'm I'm from the Northeast mostly too. I was living on the West Coast for a bit.
Haley:But I remember thinking, like, this family concept and, like, motherhood was this weird trap, and, like, I can go into entrepreneurship and, like, that's really the path to freedom, and I'm gonna work myself into the ground to do so. And, like, female physiology is rooted in safety.
Brett:Mhmm.
Haley:Women are not designed to be burning the candle at both ends because it's gonna affect nutrients, it's gonna affect progesterone, and then therefore fertility. And I just had this awakening of, you know, the the modern woman is progesterone deficient. Whether it's because she's on birth control or came off and didn't replete minerals and nutrients, she's not making progesterone. So she's not feeling at ease. She's not seeing the possibilities in life, and you get stuck on this, like, stress hormone roller coaster and kinda take off on that trajectory.
Haley:So I had to do a lot of unraveling of that for myself as well. And it's interesting moving to Texas and just being exposed to different people and different energies and different possibilities for the way that you can live life and run a business and still respect your physiology and still get in touch with nature and with food.
Brett:Yeah. Well, it seems like there's a lot of women in the Northeast that almost feel shameful for wanting to have a family. Definitely.
Haley:Yeah. No doubt. I think that, like, modern career woman and, like, girl boss energy is part of that. And, you know, look, if you don't wanna have a family, that's totally fine. That's not something that you have to do.
Haley:But I I think if we're thinking about, like, optimal hormone levels and what that feels like to actually have that, it usually pushes you in the direction of considering having a family.
Harry:Do you ever think about how we need to start approaching this from a societal perspective to start making some change?
Haley:Yeah. I think, you know, education is one part of it. Like, we all hinted at the fact that our health class in middle school was, like, completely garbage and didn't didn't eat us anything that needed it. So education, learning, like how the body works, what what do these hormones mean, and isn't the fact that our fertility and our menstrual cycle a vital sign? Like, we should be looking at that and we should be aware of it.
Haley:And if there are symptoms that maybe we sought birth control for, those symptoms are the only way your body can communicate. That's literally just communication so that we can see what might be out of balance. So I think some education around that is big. And I think about this often. And I'm like, is this a public school thing?
Haley:Is this like an online course thing? But I think it goes back to the individual time and time again and, like, radical responsibility. And this comes down to, like, the family unit too with this education happening within the household. And the, like, awakening I had on my health journey when I was seeing all these doctors and getting gaslit was realizing that nobody's coming to save me. Like, it's up to you.
Haley:And as much as I wanna blame public school education for not preparing me for this, like, it's still on me. It's still on the family unit. So I think just conversations like this is big. And then taking responsibility for educating, like, your kids so that they can grow up understanding this stuff.
Brett:Yeah. What do you think the ideal doctor patient relationship should look like? Just for anyone that's listening to this that's, like, you know, in this alternative health path, but maybe they have a doctor that's prescribing them different information or medication, contrary to the lifestyle that they wanna be living, but they don't really know where they should start or how they should interact with their doctor.
Haley:Yeah. I think the ideal relationship is where the doctor is a consultant. You know, they're not Consultant.
Brett:Yeah. I like that.
Haley:They're not the end all be all. They're not the expert of you. It'll always be you. That's the expert you're living in that body. So, you know, you can see a doctor, and there are great ones out there.
Haley:I definitely don't intend to bash the medical profession as a whole. If I get in a car accident, you better believe I'm counting on conventional medicine. I understand. I don't think they're well equipped to handle, like, chronic conditions or lifestyle conditions. But, yeah, treating them as a consultant and remembering the power that you hold, is not to be given away lightly.
Haley:And you can take their opinion. You can weigh that. And I also think gathering information is a great thing too that you can do at appointments. And that's one thing I really hope will change, especially in relation to birth control is disclosure of risk so you can make a truly informed decision. And that's one of the things I get real soapboxy on Instagram about is, like, I'm not here to tell you that you should never take birth control, but you should absolutely know everything about it before you decide.
Haley:Mhmm. And when I was put on this at, I don't know, 14, I mean, there was no disclosure of information, like, at all. I had to dig this out years later. So that's what I hope to see change. Mhmm.
Harry:What does that conversation look like at 14? Yeah.
Haley:I meant
Harry:to ask that earlier, but I wanna ask you now.
Haley:For sure. Yeah. It looked like, my periods are miserable. Like, I'm having to miss days of school. I don't wanna deal with this.
Haley:Like, what the heck do I do? And they're like, oh, you can take birth control. It'll solve that right up. Then I was like, great. You know?
Haley:Like, you're 14. You have no idea, and you're dealing with discomfort. And there's a solution for that. And then that was the end of the conversation. And for my clients, that's typically it too.
Haley:Whether it's miserable periods or acne or, of course, pregnancy prevention should really be the only reason that's prescribed, but it's used for any other hormone problem. It's just like, oh, hey. We have something for that.
Brett:Yeah. Are there any alternative measures to overcoming someone that has, like, a miserable period? Is it just diet, lifestyle, getting your hormone health under control?
Haley:Yeah. It is. And it's knowing if you've got a miserable period, your body is speaking directly to you. Like, it's not supposed to be miserable. I think that's another part of the education.
Haley:I remember health class was like, periods are gonna be miserable. Everybody hates it. It's the worst. And that's not supposed to be like that. So there's a lot of normalization of symptoms that doesn't belong in in our society.
Haley:We're supposed to feel good. We're supposed to feel vibrant. And when you don't, it's taking a second to be inquisitive about that. Instead of taking something to suppress it or put a Band Aid on it, it's like, what could I be doing differently? Am I not living in a way that respects my physiology?
Haley:Am I not eating in a way that gives me nutrients?
Brett:It's actually wild how many millennial women have been on birth control since the time they were a young teenager, and they just they just accept, okay. I wanna get pregnant. I'm just gonna get off birth control, and then I don't understand why I can't get pregnant.
Haley:I know. It's insane. I talk about that often. Like, if you look at the trajectory of a woman's life right now, it looks like this. So she gets her period.
Haley:Maybe it's miserable, or maybe she just doesn't wanna get pregnant, and she's concerned it could happen at any time because that's what we're taught. So she goes on birth control. She's on birth control for, let's say, ten years. She finds a guy, wants to get pregnant. So it's like, alright.
Haley:Well, I'm gonna take away the chemical suppression of my fertility. Damn, I didn't get pregnant right away. Something's wrong. I'm gonna go to fertility treatments and IVF because I couldn't get pregnant on my own. Then we come off IVF, go back on birth control.
Haley:Maybe we don't feel good because we lost all these nutrients to baby during pregnancy, so then an antidepressant comes into the mix. So maybe an anti anxiety. Then we stay on that train until menopause. And a lot of times, they're keeping women on birth control through the menopause transition now. And then you come off that, and then maybe it's more antidepressants or antianxieties.
Haley:And then you've got a whole life spent not not being in connection with yourself.
Harry:That's terrifying.
Haley:Right?
Harry:That's actually terrifying. Yeah. Are is there any advice that you would give to men in terms of how we can better support women in their health journey?
Haley:Yeah. I think, like, you guys getting educated on what this looks like too and what options are there and that pregnancy isn't gonna happen at any moment. And that if it's a six day thing, like, the the burden of pregnancy prevention can be shared in in a couple. It's not just on her. And then even just knowing that, you guys have the same hormone environment day to day, women don't.
Haley:And that's gonna impact the way that she's showing up in your relationship and maybe the way she feels and even the way she communicates. So I feel like it's a superpower for guys to understand the menstrual cycle and to know where your partner is in her cycle too, because we can prevent a lot of miscommunications and really be able to show up well together.
Brett:So, like, understanding, oh, if if my lady's a little bit more emotional depending on where she is in her cycle, like, maybe approach that from a point of grace as opposed to being, like, oh, why is she acting this way? Things like that. Totally. Yeah.
Haley:It's just understanding. Right? Like, we're just trying to understand each other better, and that's a really big tool for that.
Brett:Yeah. I think one of the cool things to show the way that things are trending in the positive direction is I think I first started learning about the dangers of birth control from carnivore Aurelius Mhmm. Who's a man Yeah. Who's a man. I think there's, like, a whole conspiracy theory that he's a woman.
Brett:I don't think that that's true.
Haley:I feel like his hand is in a lot of pictures. It's a man's hand.
Brett:Exactly. It is a man's hand. But I think that's I think that's a sign that things are trending in the right direction, that he's really popularized a lot of this information. Right?
Haley:I know. Yeah. It's really exciting to see that. So, yeah. I look at that account often, and I'm pumped when it's talking about birth control.
Harry:Yeah. Are are there any other resources that you go to? You mentioned doctor Kate Shanahan. Mhmm. You you mentioned Carniv Aurelius.
Harry:I'm sure it's not one that you go too deep into, but, like, he brings up great stuff. Any anything else that you go to?
Haley:He does. Laura Bryden's book, Period Repair Manual is a really, really good read and was a life raft for me back in the day. So if you are a female and you're like, gosh, I've been on birth control for a long time. I'm kinda scared for what might be there when I come off of it. Because guess what?
Haley:All those symptoms we were trying to avoid are still there. We did not solve them with birth control. That is a really good read for just understanding yourself and learning how to troubleshoot those problems. Because that's ultimately the sovereignty here is knowing how to listen and then knowing what to do about that. And that book is a really great guide for it.
Brett:Awesome. Well, I think it's really encouraging that sovereignty is possible, and there's this whole other alternative path leveraging diet and lifestyle and these free things that have always been available to us as opposed to this modern path. And I know for both of us, this conversation has been incredibly informative, and we're very appreciative of you joining us in studio and all the work that you're putting out. So thank you so much.
Haley:Thank you so much for having me and giving me a chance to talk with your audience.
Harry:Awesome. Thanks, Gary.
Haley:Thanks, guys.
Harry:Go Dukes.
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