#384 Madison Tylak: A Practical Case for Homebirthing

Copy of Harrison Gray 11-20-24 01-001 (1)
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[00:00:00] We're recording. Oh, my God. I'm so nervous. First time talking about birth. I'm so nervous. We've actually, so this is actually the second time. So we had one of our friends, Tucker Max, his, his wife, Veronica Max on the podcast. She's done four home births. Legend. She's a pioneer in space. She legitimately sat in this room that we recorded here.

She sat in this room and just walked through every single birth with us. It was, wow. Yes. Yes. So that's when the veil was pulled back for me. I was like, I need to learn more about this, because this is what a lot of people who are in the whole sovereignty movement are talking about. So, um, well, welcome to Austin.

Thank you. I love this place. You know this. Are you moving here yet or what? Listen, we're still getting manufacturing and fulfillment sorted. I sound like a broken record, but once Tyler Twins gets up and off the ground and Megan and I aren't wearing every single hat, then. That's when I get to migrate here, if Trump will allow it.[00:01:00]

Oh, I mean. He likes Canadians. Yeah. Especially. At least ones that have critical thinking cells in their head, you know? And ones who are talking about tallow. I feel like if you know what the word TAL is, you're welcome in the U. S. RFK is gonna, like, write me a handwritten letter just to get me in specifically, I think.

I think so. He would. Respectfully. Well, we don't have Brett here. We don't have Meg here. Two big losses from the last time we recorded the podcast. Some would say the two slower people of each partnership is here. Yeah. Some. Some. Not all. But, we have, we'll have a lot of uh, chutzpah, a lot of spunk in this podcast.

We got something in this podcast. Yeah, but we've been talking about doing this homeburning series for a long time. Months, ever since we tried it on the last. Ever since we recorded. Yeah. And I felt like the last time we recorded, it was like, It was part of the top the topic conversation, but we wanted to talk about your guys backstory The benefits of tallow because you guys are of course the [00:02:00] tallow twins But then also just like talking about your expertise in the birthing Um, and just like understanding like that whole space because for us, we've been talking a lot about the industrialization of food and then the industrialization of agriculture.

And it just seems like everything that like all of our systems, like even like the schooling system, it's just like we get kids in, in school and then they're just like learning all the same things. And it's very just. methodical and it's not, um, thinking about like the greater entity of like, you know, how different kids should learn, things like that.

So, um, birthing is no different. And it's one of these things that has just like, I think recently a lot of people are coming around to the idea of home birthing. So it's super cool just being able to sit down with you and learn more about it. But I think a good place to start would just be when did birthing Start to become like an actual industry because it seems like now it's like very [00:03:00] standard for people to just like go to the hospital.

Mm hmm. Yep. I would say Early 20th century is when things really kicked off in the paradigm of regulated birth and the modern maternity Care system. That's kind of when everything kind of took off where we were eliminating the traditional midwives and inviting in the obstetric model where OBGYNs were kind of taking over and managing and regulating and augmentating, inducing birth, which we'll dive into what all those words mean because it sounds really scary for people that don't know what that is.

And I mean, even for the listeners that have not had their own baby, haven't had maybe someone close to them that has Had a baby or has had any experience in the birth system in general There's so much to unpack and to debrief there and one thing for certain we've all heard an extremely traumatizing birth story And this is so unbelievably common and the reason why [00:04:00] in a nutshell is 98 billion dollars is made from birth every single year.

Well, it's a lot of money. That's crazy it's like a really big amount of money and so To think about how something, a basic physiological process that women do, just as we digest our food and go to the washroom, how's it making so much money? Why is it, why is birth a business? There's actually a documentary called, um, Birth is a Business or something along the lines, I have it screen shotted somewhere, I'll bring it up.

We'll link it. We're going to notes. We're going to link it in the show notes for sure. Um, I got a bunch of links for you. Oh, I cannot wait to, yeah, everything that we talk about, we'll link in the show notes. Oh my gosh. Because a ton of resources that we want to give to people. Books, resources, documentaries, all the things.

Like there's so many spaces or even pages on Instagram that you can just kind of, you know, invite yourself to learn more about this topic because I think it's absolutely underrated in regards to the communication that we, [00:05:00] Talk about around birth and something that I always use to break the ice when I'm talking about birth, whether it be with a client that reaches out to me wanting any sort of birth support.

One of the first few meetings that I always have with. The family, usually it's just like the wife and the, and the husband, or the mother and the father. And, uh, we talk about all things birth and how we kind of got here, and maybe it's our first baby, maybe it's our fourth baby. I've been in both corners before, and each time I always bring up this one point, is that there is nearly nine billion.

Humans on the planet right now today walking and I actually googled this this morning that there's been 117 billion people to have walked the earth and since the beginning of time and each One of us had to be born like it's not broken. Yeah This process works. It actually works really well. And so Whenever I say that to [00:06:00] people because we've been conditioned with so much fear to believe that birth is scary birth you know so many people die in childbirth and babies and it's just like a horrific event that needs to be managed and medicalized and under care of so many medical professionals But it's actually not the case and it actually works really well and it actually works the best when it's undisturbed.

And so a lot of people don't really know what that means. And yeah, it's just it's a mess and yeah, it's been regulated and now we Have a timeline where it's like, okay, if you don't have your baby within 24 hours, then now you're under the knife And cesarean is a is a huge topic that we'll definitely get into today All right.

I love it. So 20th century was when this birthing industry was kind of born and no pun intended Pun intended, uh, but that's when it started to turn into like this industry and then Since then, or today, fast forward to today, 98 billion dollars, um, in the [00:07:00] birthing industry alone, which is crazy, how, how did you get into this space?

Like, what was your interest in getting involved? And I feel like disclaimer, Like, I, I just want to let the audience know, like, I'm super fascinated by this, but know absolutely nothing about this space. So it should be a very honest conversation and, and I feel like I might have to stop you a few times and just like slow you down because truthfully, I feel like that's like part of the problem is there's so much.

Fear like you're talking about around this whole space and even between like the communication between husband and wife, which I'm not married, you're not married, but like there's so many things I feel like people don't necessarily talk about and then they just are like thrown into kind of like, Hey, make a decision on this real quick.

And they haven't actually spent the time to make the decision. So yeah. Curious to just like learn more about your background and getting involved in this space. Mm-hmm . So for me, I, I really like telling this story 'cause I feel really fortunate to be. Where I am [00:08:00] right now considering ever since I was a girl like I mean, you know when you're in kindergarten You talk about what do you want to be when you grow up?

I Wanted to be a baby doctor. That was the term. Really? Obviously Obviously that term has developed or evolved if you will So I always said I wanted to be a baby doctor, and then eventually in high school that kind of turned into a midwife. I wanted to become a midwife. I wanted to support women outside of the hospital, because I didn't really believe that that was normal.

Um, and then in, you know, grade 12, where you're applying to all the universities, I only applied to midwifery programs all over Canada. Didn't get accepted a single one. I had the grades, but obviously I was 17 years old. No one's, no one's accepting 17 years old, 17 year olds to join the midwifery program.

And not to mention they only accept about 30 a year per school. So a very small scale number. The, the work to get into these programs is extremely difficult. It just makes you think why, why is, why are they [00:09:00] making genuine midwifery care? So difficult to get into and so that kind of planted some seeds for me.

I thought it was a little bit weird and then from there I got accepted counter offers to Biomedical science or health science and nursing and I'm like, oh, well, I don't really want to do any of this I don't have any interest working in the hospital hmm, and then and then I just traveled for a couple years and then someone told me about osteopathy and Osteopathy is like a holistic manual therapy and I'm like, you know what if I study this and I'll be able to Work on pregnant women and babies one day and then that will be how I get to where I want to go And then I studied that for a few years COVID happened and I put the program on hold I just deferred, you know waiting for things to go back in person and then that turned into two years things got weird Obviously, we won't even talk about that And then one of my friends told me about What a doula is.

And I'm like, well, what's a doula? How have I not heard of this? [00:10:00] And so that was my entry, my intro into birth work. Um, I studied an online doula program, which in hindsight, I wish I could go back and not do that because how on earth can someone teach you how to support a woman online? It's just, I don't know, personally, I don't really believe in it.

I think there's a ton of other incredible ways that you could learn things about this trade. Uh, not to mention. You know, women know how to support women, and this is traditionally ancestral y. what women do. They support the women in their communities. That's kind of where how birth used to be. It's just like the maidens, the women that don't have children or the elders will go and support the woman that's in birth.

I'm definitely going crazy with this story. But anyway, I traveled again for about a year, came home, immediately started to support women. And then from there, I was supporting a lot of births with midwives. And it was like, oh, my gosh, this is This is my dream, and it only took [00:11:00] about one or two births to be inside the medicalized system of even home births with regulated midwives in Canada.

Um, and that was a really devastating realization for me because I'm like, holy shit, these women are OBs that are coming to your house. They are regulated by the same systems. These midwives have rights to support birth in the hospitals. So food for thought, I mean, these midwives are allowed to work in the hospitals.

Obviously they are kind of on the same team here. And I don't want to sound like I'm totally, you know, ripping apart the obstetric model because I really am not trying to. But. The real, the realistic portion of what I'm trying to say is birth has been extremely medicalized to a point where it's way beyond what's normal or necessary.

And I believe that's far more dangerous [00:12:00] than absolutely anything that could happen at home. Not to mention that, you know, emergencies do happen, crazy things happen. One of us could drop dead right here in this podcast, but we're not not gonna film the podcast, you know We got important things to say but That's just the real tea of the subject.

But anyway, I started supporting births Started I supported in hospital and at home births with midwives and OBs Because as a doula some of you you're allowed to have two people you're allowed to have your partner whoever's can you choose to come with you to the hospital to birth and then another person a secondary whether that be a doula, or a photographer, or whoever you want to have, another family member.

Um, and spending time supporting births in the hospital, I saw some insane things. And it was only about a year and a half in where I started to tell my clients that I no longer will support births in the hospital. Oh wow. Which is a really difficult decision for me, because I think these women need more advocacy and a bodyguard, if you will, to go and support these [00:13:00] women, but I was getting second hand traumatization, if that's even a word, just being there.

It was, it was absolutely disgusting. Some of the things that I've heard, some of the things that I've seen, some of the things that I've been told from OBs and doctors, the lies that I've heard, the uninformed consent that's been given, the, like, literally the facts that they're pulling out of thin air that made absolutely no sense.

I studied anatomy and physiology for three years and I could Tell some of the chief of neonatal at certain really, um, like, um, prestigious neonatal units that they're like absolutely, literally making shit up telling these clients that their babies are gonna die if they don't do the things that they recommend.

Really? It was Wow. It was insane. The lies. Hmm. It's wild. So Compare. So you've seen a lot, I'd love to just like understand, like through your eyes, like what you saw in the hospital versus what you've seen experience through like home [00:14:00] birthing, what kind of, what forced you to really make that decision with your clients?

Like, Hey, I'm, I'm no longer gonna support hospitalized births. It honestly, it was a few, it was, I mean, I've supported a number of births. It's like upwards 50 births that I've supported now. Um, Maybe it's a little bit more, I haven't done a count in a while, but I would come home after a hospital birth and I'd cry for three days, cry for three days, excuse me, and it was just not normal.

I'm like, this is not what I want to support. And in my head at the time, I'm like, well, these women need it more than anyone. They need the support so badly, but I'm not leading by example by willingly showing up in these spaces, so. I decided to remove myself. I made a post on my birth page on my Instagram and I just said I'm no longer going to be supporting planned hospital births.

It goes to say that if we're at a home birth and for whatever reason the mother chooses to transfer to the [00:15:00] hospital for whatever reason I'm going to go. I'm never going to abandon a woman in any case scenario. But to go to a hospital where a woman is choosing that type of birth, I, I couldn't, I couldn't be there.

I can't be in that space. I can't witness it. What does that actually look like? Like where, where were you seeing the most like egregious things that kind of stood out to you as, Hey, this is just wrong. So, I mean, we could not have enough time to go over all the things that go, that can go on a lot of an informed consent.

A lot of doctors giving women medications without telling them. A lot of, you know, I don't wanna use the word RAPE 'cause people get really emotional about that word, but. I mean, what would you call it if there was a doctor or nurse going inside of a woman and them begging them to remove themselves from their bodies and them saying no because they have to.

When it's not coming to a life or death situation for either mother or [00:16:00] baby. Oh my gosh. And I'm witnessing this, and I'm looking at the eyes of my client, looking at their husband that's afraid to death, and I'm sitting there in that In that hospital room, telling the doctor to please listen to the client and they just are going about their day.

Like it's the 9 to 5. This is protocol, this is routine, this is what we have to do. And um, there's been specific scenarios where a woman will be very clear like, I will not receive the vitamin K shot, I will not receive Pitocin, I do not want to receive any pain medication. I don't, whatever it is, X, Y, Z, we can go over a lot of those things later on, but.

Um, and then they, and then I look up, and I look at their IV bag, and then what they said that they specifically didn't want to receive is literally entering their body via IV after they specifically said that they did not want to receive it. There's been situations where I've asked the, the doctor, where I'm like, hi, like, you know, is that, is [00:17:00] that literally Pitocin that the, the patient, my client, your patient, just said that they didn't want to receive, and they said, well, it's protocol, it's routine, we give it to everyone.

I'm like, oh, do you routinely give medications to clients without their consent? Like, is this routine? Do you routinely enter yourselves in, in woman's bodies without asking consent? Why is this normal? Why is this your routine? Why is this the standard practice? It's just it was it was disgusting. I couldn't see it.

I couldn't feel it Like I have like a full body sympathetic experience right now talking about it. Like it's it's it was heartbreaking So in your eyes, what should that experience look like? And what have you seen on the other side now that you've moved more into the home birthing space? so after working as a doula for about a year and a half I Discovered the free birth society and Yolanda Norris Clark.

They're two incredible women. They, they have a radical birth keeper school and what radical birth keeper? It sounds so [00:18:00] special, prestigious. It's, it's traditional midwifery. If I were to go around and calling myself a traditional midwife, I will literally have to go to court. Oh really? Oh my gosh, it's insane.

There's a midwives that, um, Or a lot of birth keepers like myself that are on a special list from the midwives because, you know They're practicing midwifery and regulated midwives are very upset at this, you know, because they've they've gone to the school They they have all the medicalized regulated associations Governing all the things that they do and they'll lose their license if they don't follow the rules.

So it's like Sorry, I'm going on a tangent, but these women, I feel, and I'm not speaking for every single one because, you know, I can't group every single regulated midwife into this bubble, but a lot of them I truly believe, and I'll get a lot of hate for it, and I've already gotten a lot of hate for it, but I believe a lot of them are more, more, um, genuine and loyal to the [00:19:00] association before the woman that they're supporting.

And so, back to your question, I studied at the Radical Birth Keeper School. We did like a, like an online, um, in person, like, um, in person virtual. Um, course with the Radical Birth Keeper with Emily Saldaña and Yolanda Norris Clark. We'll definitely link that. It's an incredible space for women to learn more about birth outside of the system and what that looks like.

And um, I started supporting women as a Radical Birth Keeper. And what that looks like is, is me showing up to their house and making them bone broth and offering them support where I don't have to act as a bodyguard and Advocate for them every five seconds to make sure that their birth isn't sabotaged and which is what you felt like at the hospital 1, 000 i'm surprised.

I constantly you're just constantly on guard. Oh, yeah I'm, honestly surprised. I didn't get arrested at some points like [00:20:00] honestly, wow, I uh, and that's the thing I I can't go in and not Try my best to give the woman what she's wanting, but I mean it's nearly impossible when you're in that space. And did you feel like the woman appreciated that level of integrity to you just being like I'm, I'm just doing what you told me that you wanted?

Yeah, I'm never gonna go into a space and start talking about what I would want in the birth. I mean if the woman told me, Madison, I need you to wear a purple shirt, I'm gonna wear a purple, it's not personal to me. Yeah. I'm doing the things that I'm, I mean that's why I was hired, you know? It's like you tell me what it is that you want and I'm gonna do my best to To make sure that the space is remains sacred and so that the people are honoring your wishes But then I kind of got to a point where it's like I'm actually not responsible You are and so if you really don't want any of these things and I don't think you should be birthing in the hospital Because that's what they're trained to do.

And that's where it's like I don't want to Um, you know, talk smack about the medical system because at the end of the day, we're all responsible for the experiences that we're receiving. So if you're [00:21:00] aware that you don't want anything that you know that they're going to offer and that you know they're going to push upon you, then it's your responsibility to get educated and to choose the birth that you want to have outside of that paradigm.

You know, it's, it's tough, but the home birthing, um, and what that looks like, it's, It's peaceful. It's like we don't, throughout the pregnancy, we have a number of connection sessions, AKA prenatal visits, but I don't like to call them prenatal visits because then it sounds like they're sick. You know, we're not sick.

You're just pregnant. We're hanging out talking about birth, but we're not, we're no longer wasting time talking about. You know, you need to know about this, and we need to prep you for this, this fight, like we're going to war, you know, you need to know what this is, and they're gonna really try to push it on you, and I need to educate you on what's inside of it, and you need to make sure you sign the papers or they're gonna do it anyway, I felt like we were wasting so much precious time, this is one of the most sacred events of your life, this is, Like women reach highs when they're in labor [00:22:00] and the most beautiful moments of their life, like they're in the trenches.

It's a lot of the time they're going to experience their deepest, darkest hour, but it can be so fulfilling. And I mean, what greater gift at the end of it, you literally get to receive the baby that you created. And it's like, One of the most beautiful things that I believe exists in the world. I mean, it's, it's life.

And so it's that in your own comfort of your own home and with whatever snacks you want to have within whatever position you want to be in with whatever vibes, whatever music, like it's so fun. It's one of my favorite things to do. I look forward to it. I feel unbelievably. I'm blessed to be invited into these spaces to watch these women and to be with them during this moment.

I mean, it's the most beautiful thing in the world, I believe. Yeah. So I guess the ultimate question that I'm just like so curious about is that set up as like a home birthing set up, what fears do like most people who come to you, like what do [00:23:00] they have about the home birthing versus just going to the hospital?

I mean, there's definitely different fears, um, for either one depending on the client but the biggest fear is, I mean, a lot of them comes from the, the general, um, dissociation from birth and the fear and the stories that they've been told, you know, it's like everyone knows someone that hemorrhaged, everyone knows someone that had their life saved in the hospital, everyone knows someone, it's like, you know, my baby got stuck or the cord is wrapped around the neck and all of these things, like, okay.

It's like, I'm trying so hard to come from a place of understanding and knowing that we've all just been so brainwashed To make them ourselves believe that we need to birth with medical professionals 100 percent of the time When these are all variations of normal and a lot of the times a lot of these life saving interventions that Happen that need to go on within the hospital were induced by the things that they did [00:24:00] It's like You didn't hemorrhage because your body was broken, you hemorrhaged because they ripped your placenta out of your body, you know, right?

And so what a placenta is Harry's like explain that one for me placebo and while you're at it explain what a doula is

The first minute of the podcast hey, can we just like go back to the beginning? Let's restart the whole thing Dua Lipa? No. A doula in regard, er, kay, doula, a support person, a person that's gonna be there with you. It's like a coach. Coach. A birth mentor, if you will. She shows up, whether it's at home or the hospital, she shows up, she's here to do whatever she needs for the woman, she's, and the man, I mean, men need an equal amount of support sometimes.

Come on. Men need more help. Respect. Sorry, Harry. Because that's, you've seen that. There's guys like not knowing what to do. [00:25:00] Absolutely. I mean, men don't get it. Generally, we don't know what to do, but With like most things, but especially birth. Like, come on, like, they've never done it except for Brett. Yeah, Brett has done it successfully.

Sorry, Brett. Um, but yeah, so what it looks like, what was your question? I was, I asked about, um, What a duel is. The fears around. The common fears. Yeah. Yeah. So, anyway, a lot of these, like, life saving interventions that go on are induced by the things that they did. And so I brought up what a placenta is. So a baby, uterus, mother, growing baby, a placenta is a beautiful, incredible, cool organ that is attached to the inside of our uterus.

And there's like a beautiful, nice little sack around it. If you've ever heard the term, a woman's water broke. So the water's amniotic fluid is inside the placenta. attached to the inside of the uterus. So how birth [00:26:00] goes on, how it happens, um, the water will break. Typically, sometimes it doesn't. But for, for basic explanation, we're gonna say that the water breaks, baby comes out.

Via vagina and then the placenta is still attached on the inside of the uterus and the baby is attached by umbilical cord Which is attached to baby's belly button and the end of the cord is still attached to the placenta Which is still attached to the mother and so all of baby's blood all of baby's nourishment is coming from the placenta All the arteries and veins all the things are attached to placenta and mother so they're sharing the same blood and so After the baby comes out, one third of baby's blood, that's a lot of blood volume, is still inside the placenta.

Um, in the hospital, it is regulated and protocol that you cut the cord immediately. What this does is it removes the baby from the mother, a. k. a. baby can go wherever they want. Baby [00:27:00] is now taken away from the mother, which is absolutely detrimental, I believe, to the mother and the baby. For numerous amount of reasons, one of which When the mother when the baby is born and the baby is placed it placed immediately on the mother's chest Skin to skin.

Have you heard this term? Yeah skin to skin. Okay. So what skin to skin does not only is it regulating baby's temperature? It's allowing baby to know that everything's okay Baby's blood sugar it helps the mother and the baby Um, accumulate a, a healthy breastfeeding experience, a million reasons. And then for the mother specifically, she is now, her body, we're talking primal, instinctual moments.

The mother is holding her baby, she is smelling the amniotic fluid, she's kissing her baby's face. There's a chemical exchange going on when the baby, or the mother is kissing the baby. The amniotic fluid, all the vernix, that white creamy stuff that's on the baby, is going onto the mother's lips, [00:28:00] signaling her brain.

The baby has been born. Now it is time to produce more oxytocin to do a bunch of fun things. A, help the pain feel less painful. B, allow her uterus to continue to contract to release the placenta. I like to explain it as, like, the placenta is kind of like a scab, if you will. It's kind of a weird example, but it makes a lot of sense when we talk about it.

So what happens when you pick a scab? It bleeds, right? Yeah, but when you let a scab fall off on its own, it's good. It doesn't bleed because your body was able to clot the blood. And so when you allow the placenta to come out on its own time, there will be less bleeding. There will be less hemorrhaging.

Hemorrhaging. There's a lot of blood with birth, you know, there's been so many Experiences where I've seen professionals talk about hemorrhaging, being a hemorrhage, when it's really not, it's just, it's just a normal amount of blood. And you can look at a woman's face if [00:29:00] she's literally unconscious, which I've seen that before in a normal situation.

She's been totally fine, you wait, she wakes up, you give her some salt and honey, she's good to go. Um, or some cinnamon or a bunch of other fun tinctures like yarrow and all the things. Um. But yeah, it's like it's just a variation of normal. And so that's a little bit about the placenta and why it's so important for the woman to actually allow herself to have the baby attached to her.

But yeah, in the hospital they cut the cord immediately. They called delayed cord clamping 60 seconds. Okay. It takes about 10 minutes for the placenta to drain. So as As, like, we're intervening in these, like, hospital settings, the clamp, and then there's, like, a few other things, like, you were saying, like, some of the, um, inoculations, like, things that we would do to, like, maybe induce birth or something like that, that might cause other interventions later on, um, like, The cord clamping is a perfect example.

Like, what are the negative side effects of clamping the cord? Negative side effects [00:30:00] is that the baby is not getting all of this precious blood that is theirs. One third is still in the. One third is still inside of the placenta, which is That's a big amount. And that'll just be like, all sorts of nutrients, things that like, this baby will need to, for it's like, initial development.

It's initial development. It's an, it's insane. And what I hear a lot of the times, um, from the doctors is, you know, there's been no studies done to say that the baby needs this blood, blah, blah, blah, blah. Higher chances of a baby having jaundice, which one in three babies have, have jaundice. What is that?

Where their skin goes a little bit orange. Okay. Basically, I mean, we'll not get into scientifically of what jaundice is, but it's extremely normal. One in every three babies have it. The chances of a baby actually having severe, um, medical issues with jaundice is very, very low. And it's like extreme. high amounts of jaundice or levels of jaundice.

Um, yeah, you breastfeed, you put a baby by the window on the sun and they're, and they're good to go. A lot of medical [00:31:00] professionals will, will hear this and absolutely not agree because that's what they've been trained to do. But yeah, it's, it's normal. And so yeah, that's why it's obviously important for baby to get all the, all the blood, all the nutrients.

I mean, it's pretty standard. What sort of science is there around that like initial? A few minutes or hours of like that mother child connection that we intervene with, like you talked about the skin to skin contact. Is that impairing the baby's development? Absolutely. It'll impair baby's development.

It's first moments of their life, their blood sugar, their glucose, like absolutely everything is affected by that immediate skin to skin moment. And it's just so imperative for both the mother and baby for so many other reasons. Like, I've heard women that have experiences with their babies being born and immediately being taken away from them because they didn't cry within two seconds of being born, which is normal, you know?

Even women that are so aware [00:32:00] and know this, that I know that I've supported, their baby will come out and they'll be like, why is my baby not crying? But their baby's fine. It's okay that a baby doesn't immediately make respiratory effort. It takes time and, beautiful thing, why we also love the cord being attached, They don't need to breathe.

They're getting everything that they need. They don't need to breathe right away, I will say. Um, but for ten minutes, they're attached to that, to that cord, minimum. And they're getting fresh, oxygenated blood via the cord. Via the placenta, via the mother. And so, this is absolutely crucial. And so yeah, to cut that off.

Yeah, now I'll worry about the baby not breathing because you just cut off its primary oxygen supply. So, something that a lot of the doctors and regulated midwives will do, will grab a towel or, or their fingernail and they're scratching the baby's feet to make them cry. Hmm. And, I think that is absolutely abuse to a [00:33:00] tiny, sweet, little baby that just came out from like the comfiest place in the entire world.

And now they're like, let's mutilate you until you friggin cry. It's just, it's so sad and, you know, a mother, We'll see and know when, primally, like she doesn't need, not all the time needs anyone to tell her what her baby's need in that moment. Is there still some fluids in the baby's mouth or lungs? When and if it's necessary, a mother, primally, she is in her most primal state ever.

If she sees that she's going to use her mouth, It's an incredible tool that we have and remove the liquids from the baby's mouth and do what she needs to do and not only is that going to be amazing for the baby, it's going to be amazing for the mother because she's having that same chemical reaction where her body is letting her know that the baby has been born, it's time to produce colostrum, that really nutrient dense first milk that the mother produces, it's nice and golden and yellow, full of antibodies, full of everything that the baby will need for the [00:34:00] healthy gut, gut microbiome for the baby.

Superfood. Superfood. I know you know this.

It's really important for a whole lot of things. I won't spend too much time on that. Yeah. It's, it's so crazy to just listen to you talk because I feel like if there was. Like our world gets us kind of like this idea of, you know, going away from like traditional medicine in a lot of senses, like the industrial model in so many ways has just led us so far from true health.

And I think it's really interesting to think about what are we actually sacrificing when we're not letting things like the cord, like the cord and placenta actually like release on its own, the mother to have that skin to skin contact, like how far down the line, like. It seems like it's like probably a little bit woo woo for a lot of people or like there maybe isn't like fully [00:35:00] Studied but like it has to have effects down the line in terms of how that child develops Um, I'm wondering if you've either like seen that like, you know, in the first initial years, like, do you see stories of mothers being like, my child is just like, I don't know, even just little, little anecdotal stories of like seeing one kid who maybe was home birth and one kid who wasn't like, is there, is there differences?

Absolutely. There's definitely a parallel there where. Women, especially their relationship with their baby and their relationship with their postpartum experience, postpartum depression, you know, this is a, it's actually. A newer term than you think. Postpartum depression didn't, wasn't just always a thing.

Really? In the beginning of time. What does that actually mean? It's like you get depressed after you give birth? I mean, yeah, we could really go into that. But, postpartum depression is kind of what it sounds like. A not very ideal postpartum experience. Like, why are women [00:36:00] feeling so awful after they birth?

That doesn't have to be your experience. That actually isn't normal. What do you think causes that? A traumatized birth. A woman that is completely detached from the physiological experience that her body was created to do. Um, like her body is supposed to be dumping the oxytocin and exactly. So let's K on that note, before we go further, let's just dive into what oxytocin is for if anyone's listening.

Like what is oxytocin? What is this thing that we're talking about? Oxytocin is our love hormone. This is a hormone that you produce when you're feeling safe and you're feeling comforted when you're having sex, when you're doing all the things, when you're in labor, your body will produce this hormone.

It's a really. Crucial hormone that is necessary for the ideal physiological progression for labor. And yeah, how do we produce that? Well, we feel safe. We're in a dark, cozy room. I always talk about what [00:37:00] animals do when they're in labor. They go somewhere dark, they go somewhere alone, and they have their baby and they do the damn thing and that's it.

But what do we do? You know, we go to a hospital filled with led lights with a bunch of strangers yelling and. You know, forcing you to do things, to lie in certain positions, and to be hooked up to all these machines. I'll tell you what you're not producing. Oxytocin. But They created Pitocin, which is a synthetic version of oxytocin.

hmm. Okay, gotcha. Yeah. I'm following. I'm following. We should have started with this, but I'm so proud of you for following. This is good. Um, so yeah, that's when Pitocin became a thing and Fully synthetic? Fully synthetic. I mean you can't recreate a hormone that is naturally occurring in your body. So that's when Pitocin came along.

And so here we are injecting Pitocin into all these pregnant women. You can do this to induce a woman which means Create the labor like she's not in labor. She's [00:38:00] at 40 weeks. Yeah. Well time's up for the baby tap out eviction notice You know, you're not allowed to be pregnant anymore because that's that's the rule.

That's Canada in the US 40 weeks That's your due date, but due dates don't exist. You're made up So when a mother gets induced into labor, like are there health consequences for that? 1, 000 percent the woman is four times likely to have a c section On the C sections. Second most popular surgery in Canada and the U.

S. today. Really? And it has been for A long time, 60 years. Wow. Mm hmm, mm hmm, yeah. And that's probably part of that 98, 98 billion. That's that. Cash cow, yeah, lots of money for a c section. Um, but back to the note of postpartum depression. We'll touch on that in a second. When women are pumped with this pitocin, it's this synthetic hormone, way more than that their body would produce.

And it's [00:39:00] not the same It's not the same thing. It's not perceived by the body the same way. And so now the woman is having an abundance of this synthetic hormone. Women are far more likely to have postpartum depression, 60 percent times more likely to have postpartum depression when they receive Pitocin during labor.

And so what it also does is it overworks your uterus because now it's like So much Pitocin, we're absolutely packing your body with it. Your body is working so hard, your uterus is working so hard. Higher chances of hemorrhaging, higher chances of uterine rupture, where your uterus will literally tear open.

And babies don't like Pitocin. They have, um, something that's called, um, fetal heart. Oh my gosh, I'm having a brain fart right now. Anyway, baby's heart rate's too high, baby's heart rate is too low, their uterus is working way too hard, it's like literally squeezing the heck out of the baby, far more than what's physiological, which is normal, which is [00:40:00] happening in our body all the time.

And so, yeah, we hate it for a billion reasons, and that's just a few of them. And, uh, it's regulated, it's protocol. Every, if you don't say anything, you need to show up to your hospital. There is a 100 percent chance that you are receiving Pitocin unless you walk into the hospital and your baby is like half out, out.

That's really Canadian of me. Shoot. So, yeah, so if, if. So if you're going to the hospital, you're getting Pitocin. Yeah, and even after you show up after your baby's born, they're like, well, it's also protocol that they give Pitocin afterwards to prevent the hemorrhage. It's like, oh my gosh, you guys are preventing the hemorrhage that you're creating.

I feel like woman's health is just so, it blows my mind. how much we're jeopardizing in terms of, uh, woman's health. Like when I think about birth control in general, [00:41:00] and then we talk about birthing, it's like, these are all things that it just seems like we're taking. Shortcuts around how we should be thinking about full holistic health, like the full wellbeing of the mother and the child.

Um, there's just natural processes that we should be adhering to and like supporting instead of trying to play God in a lot of ways and really override a lot of these, these natural processes. It's, it blows my mind. It's pretty devastating. Yeah. Wow. It makes a lot of money. I mean, yeah, to manage it, it's, uh, everyone's given birth.

What an incredible business. I mean, we both have brands of our own. Like, you know, that is high ROI right there. Yeah. You know, let's make all these medications. Let's make all these machines. Let's make all these things. Talk about all the money that we're gonna make. The birth, you know? But what is that jeopardizing?

Our life, our, our wellness, our babies, the, one of the most sacred moments of our lives, the most primal thing that we'll do in our lives, [00:42:00] it's completely taking us out of this experience that is so crucial for the connection between the mother and baby, you know, and I know you asked this question earlier and man, I apologize.

I'm, um, Weave it back in. They're probably like, this girl is schizophrenic, I think. I am, on this topic, because I'm so unbelievably passionate about it. And, like, it just enrages me. That this is normal we couldn't possibly we could have a series for the rest of the year on birth and maybe we'll we'll cover most of the topics and get people all on the same page, but I'm, really just trying to plant the seeds of like this is normal.

We do not need to regulate it We we need to do nothing. I think that would be the greatest answer of all honestly, we're the only animal on the planet That has to give birth in a hospital. Yeah. Has, has anyone had a cat have kittens? Like, I mean, those things are, you know, having litters left, right, and center, but they just do it and they do it [00:43:00] really well.

And because they're animals and they know how to, I, and I always actually suggest to my clients that have, especially ones that have never given birth, watch videos of animals giving birth period. It's pretty, uh. Kind of like. Alleviate some of the nerves. Yeah, like they're just outside and they just do the thing and that's about it And that and you know, Bob's your uncle call it a day.

Yeah, that's birth. It just works. Interesting. All right, we talked It works so well when it's undisturbed We talked about c section. So 40 weeks comes around you get the pitocin injected into you you get the c section what are there anything that you're thinking about like if if that is like The course that someone's going down like are there health trade offs that people are making When it comes to like a c section birth versus a normal birth.

Yeah, absolutely They have normally have a difficult time producing breast milk at the beginning, especially I mean, it's just because you're you're you're like hot wiring [00:44:00] totally Yeah, and there's also um Sorry, I never put my phone on do not disturb. It's Brett. Yeah, I'm like, dude, we're not gonna tell your birth story on the podcast.

like, please tell the story. We're not, we're not gonna tell the story, Brett. Um, but, oh my gosh, what was the question? Um, C sections. C sections. So, what's the trade off from a health standpoint? Yeah. So it's an abdominal surgery. It's an open abdominal surgery. It's a huge operation that not only puts the mother and baby at risk because that's just like not how babies are meant to be born.

Um, but it's, it's a lot to recover from and it's really, really difficult on all parties. And there's also not that bacterial exchange where a baby will receive by via vaginal birth. Um, I was actually a cesarean birth. I'm a twin. Oh yeah, that was right. I remember we talked about that. Megan was born au naturel and uh, You got the helicopter out?

I got the heli out. Yep, my poor mom. She [00:45:00] got, you know, she got a Like, she double whammy, double edged sword, vaginal birth, and then immediately into a C section, the poor girl. Yeah. Um, but they said I just wouldn't come out. You know, I, what I have to say about that, I wish I could go back in time. I just needed a little bit more time.

Like, let, let my mom do her thing. Let her cuddle Megan and produce the oxytocin. And I have a few theories about that because Megan had bilateral club feet. She was removed from my mom immediately. The fear that my mom must have felt in that moment. My baby just got taken away from me. Probably no oxytocin being produced then.

Then and there. Absolutely not. That would have stalled birth, of course. Yeah, absolutely. Interesting. Yeah, back to C sections. You're four times more likely to die in a cesarean than you are vaginal birth. So, for all the people that's gonna come at me and say, Well, you know what? You know, the cesarean saved my life.

And there are absolutely many situations where modern medicine have saved mothers and babies. I am absolutely not trying to shy away from that [00:46:00] whatsoever. But that's just not what we're talking about right now. We're talking about the modern maternity care. You know, taking over everyone, the healthy women, the low risk pregnancies, all the things, but it's just not necessary for everyone.

It is not a one size fits all and, you know, the really super high risk experiences, that's where the hospital flourishes, that's what they're trained to do. But for me, an extremely young, healthy, fertile woman giving birth, I think, I know, it's a lot more dangerous for me to be there than it would be. I'm not part of my own home, alone, with my husband.

And maybe a doula that's making me really good snacks in the background, or a birth attendant. Bone broth. Bone broth. Honey, all the good things. So the c section, trade offs, less breast milk production, higher risk of the baby dying, you said? Not necessarily the higher risk of the baby dying, but um There are a lot of like it's yeah, it's just a really stressful on both the mother and baby and [00:47:00] a lot of the times with Inductions you're six times more likely to have a cesarean when you're being induced because Baby wasn't mother didn't go into labor for a reason Yeah, baby either needs more time inside the mother just hasn't gotten there yet First time mothers are very very very common for First time mother is not to give birth until the 42nd week of pregnancy.

Her due date is in the 40th week of pregnancy. Oh, wow. So why are we trying to induce that process? Is it just because, like, the mother's uncomfortable? Baby, like, A lot of women will say that they're uncomfortable. Oh, the baby's too big. Oh, I love that one. Ultrasounds. The most inaccurate things ever. Not to mention the amount of EMFs, the amount of, um, what's it called?

X ray? Radiation. Radiation. Holy brain farts. Yeah, brutal. They're not, they're not good. The sound, the heat, all the things, and not to mention they're [00:48:00] inaccurate. Not ideal. If someone ever tells you that your baby is too big or too small, I wouldn't I would take it with a grain of salt. I would, um, do a little bit of research before you take that to heart and allow it to govern your birth experience.

Um, yeah, it's just, it's not ideal. Not an ideal circumstance. So we only have a few minutes left. I want to spend the last few

minutes just talking about how to have Like the best birth experience possible from like prenatal nutrition to some of the psychological aspects.

Like if somebody, it's their first time having a baby, like what are the sorts of things that they should be doing?

You mentioned like watching videos of other animals having, um, having birth. We're giving birth, not having birth, but you're getting like, what, what should we be doing to support this process? That's natural every animal and every creature that has ever existed goes through this process Yeah, there's so much fear around it.

How do we support [00:49:00] this? How do we make this process actually? Like what it should be which is like revered and just a natural part of bringing life into this world Yeah, I would I would eat real food I would not lose sleep about a prenatal vitamin. Any real foods in particular? Meat. Milk. Meat Mafia Podcast.

Butter. Meat Mafia. Um, protein and fat, man. These are on, like, eat protein and fat, period. This is all we need for our fertility. Among other things, but primarily. Um, get doula in your area that supports sovereign birth. I'm not saying that you need to birth at home. I'm saying you need to birth where you feel safe so your body can actually.

Experience the physiological beauty that birth is, you know? Um, food for thought. I mean, dip your toe into the home birth space. Dip your toe into what it means to allow your body to do what it was built to do. Ask yourself, why are [00:50:00] you afraid of the things that you're afraid of? Was it a story that someone told you?

Well, let's debrief that story. Like, why did that experience happen to that woman, you know? And, you know, cause it's always, I had someone on Twitter the other day get back to me and say, you know, like, I said, normalize birth at home or something. And she goes like, I actually hemorrhaged when I had a birth at, you know, said birth clinic.

And, you know, I, I just replied to her and I said, I would love to have a call with you if you, if you were open to debrief, because I don't know what that woman's experience was. Did she actually hemorrhage or? Did her midwife pull her placenta out of her, you know, and so I don't ever want to Like take away a woman's experience because they're all very real experiences, but let's dive a little bit deeper Let's take responsibility for our births and the experiences that we're going to have with our births Let's find the trust in our bodies that we used to have and remind yourself that we've been doing this Since the beginning of time, every single month since we were a girl, when we got our very first [00:51:00] period, our body has been literally preparing for this moment, to get pregnant, to have this baby that is literally our primary physiological thing that we do as women, and we do it really friggin well when we allow ourselves to, and give it the space that it needs to unfold properly.

Undisturbed is normally really good, and obviously there's so many resources and books that I have found for myself to be extremely educating and that I will give to my clients. I have my little lending library for my birth clients that I do support. And, um, I will definitely make a list in the show notes.

I'll give it to you for clients to read or for anyone that's curious. And I will say I am not a mother. I have not birthed my babies yet. Disclaimer. I am not a mother, but I have an ample amount of wisdom that I have learned from firsthand experiences, and that was just given to me via being a woman.

Ancestral roots of just knowing how [00:52:00] birth works and just having a deep. Profound respect for it and knowing how powerful and beautifully it does unfold when you allow it to do so And so yeah, there's we'll we'll add those links and the documentaries and the books that are like super intros to You know, dipping your toe into what the space looks like.

And I'm super open if anyone wants to reach out to me. My Instagram is at madsbirthwork, M A D S. My name's Madison, nickname's Mads. You get the point. Um, and then, yeah. Um, touch on Teletwins for a little bit. Yeah. So are there products that you guys have with the Teletwins that would be good for somebody who's, you know, just had a baby or.

You know, about to have a baby. Yeah, absolutely. So that's how Talo Twins was born. Talk about a conception and birth. Wow. Let's go. Talo Twins was born via, via, um, my birth work experience. So I was making Talo bombs for my clients and I was just posting it on my Instagram story of whoever wanted one and all my clients wanted one.

And it was, you [00:53:00] know, kind of a hot, hot little moment there. Cause you can't find at the time, May, 2023. You couldn't find any Talo. Now there's Talo Products left, right, and center, which love that. Um, but yeah, so I kind of talked to Megan. She had just graduated all things business administration marketing for university and then I just kind of caught her and I asked her, I was like, well, we should maybe found our own brand.

That's when Talo Twins was born. The next day we got the domain. Started creating our website with a friend of ours, and then yeah, our first ever product. Thanks to my experience in birth work and why I was creating Talo to begin with, we named our product, um, Happy Baby. That was like the one product that started us off.

And I made this one for all things mother, all things baby, all things sensitive skin. So whether that be chapped nipples from breastfeeding, a growing pregnant belly, um, a baby bum, cradle cap, diaper rash, pelvic floor, all [00:54:00] things pelvic floor, hemorrhoids, you name it. Like the feedback that we've received.

I'm like, I mean, I wasn't going to say that, but I'm glad it worked for you. Wow. It's nourishing. I mean, you can eat it. It's, it's food for your skin. So, um, happy baby. This is a product that I recommend for everyone. What's in there? We have tallow, obviously, jojoba oil, calendula, and chamomile. So all things that is everything that we need for our skin to nourish and heal and replenish the skin's microbiome.

And again, it's it's food for your skin. So it's safe for your baby. It's safe for you. It's safe for those nipples after breastfeeding when they get really tough. I know you won't be able to relate to this, but maybe Brett would? He would. Yeah, he would for sure probably would yeah sicko. Yeah. Um, but yeah, we actually made a code It's going to be birth mafia 15.

Let's go No caps. Birth Mafia. Birth Mafia 15. It's gonna be in the show notes as well.

And so yeah, Talotwins. ca. You can get [00:55:00] all the things and our Instagram handle as well as just Talotwins. I'm one of the twins. The other twin is. Who knows? She's somewhere across. The brains behind the operation. Yeah, she's just wandering around.

I'm the passion, okay guys? The creative. The, you know, where Childish Wounds was born, but Megan, thank God, otherwise this wouldn't be no show. Yeah, we love you. Yeah, thank God for me. Seriously. Truly. We need them. And Brett. We need them both. Brett kinda is the foundation, if you will. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He is. I could have friggin honestly went on about birth.

We, we seriously We're gonna need a part two. For sure. Because what I appreciate about this combo and the ones that we'll have going forward is that obviously this is a very personal and intimate conversation for everyone. Like, if you're a woman out there who's had a baby, this is personal to everyone.

I'm sure everyone who's had a child. Understands this experience, some of the things that you talked about. Um, and I, I'm honestly just curious about it. 'cause I feel like there's so much here that we just overlook in the course [00:56:00] of making big, challenging decisions that affect the livelihood of our most important person in our life, our significant other, and then our kids, like these are very serious topics.

So very appreciative of you just being open and honest and I love that, that you're just willing to share your opinion and, um, all your experience. So. Mm-hmm . Appreciate you mans. Well, thank you harry. I love being here. I always love chatting with you guys. Let's do a part two Let's do a part two part three part dude.

Honestly, there's so much we could have talked about we'll go back scratching the surface Seriously, we'll run it back. We'll do a full like deep dive on all of it. This is just a warm up episode This is this is to get everyone prepped the foundation. What's a placenta? What's what's a do? What's a doula?

What's a doula? We'll we'll circle back Anyway, love it. Unreal. Love it. Love it. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, Harry