#388 Barefoot Will: Rebuilding Your Body From the Ground Up

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[00:00:00] All right. We're rolling. Will welcome to the meat mafia podcast, brother. Appreciate you having me on Harry. It's great to be here. Dude, we were, we were chopping it up a little bit beforehand and I can already tell this is going to be an incredible conversation. Um, we had, uh, a Jack on, I'm not sure if you're familiar with him last week, but fellow, uh, Um, health and wellness, um, voice out there.

And, uh, he came on last week talking about fertility and the like, and, um, one of the things I love about X is that there's just all these different pockets of people talking about unique perspectives, specifically within the health and wellness space space. And I've been following your content for a while, just cause it's been specifically relevant to me.

Um, you know, you talk a lot about barefoot. The barefoot lifestyle, fixing foot health, foot, uh, foot dysfunction. And, um, yeah, it's just been something that I've been wrestling with as an ex athlete who's, you know, feet were living [00:01:00] in cleats. Um, and, uh, yeah, dude, I just, I love your content. Love what you put out there.

So pumped to dive in a little bit more. Appreciate it, man. Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about your athletic background. Yeah. So I, um, I grew up playing all sorts of sports. Uh, both my parents were big skiers, so. We were skiing from a young age, feet were bound into ski boots. That's been a lifelong passion.

So I've continued doing that. It's like, probably my favorite thing to do, um, outside of recording podcasts with cool people like yourself. And, um, You know, I, uh, just grew up basically playing everything, played baseball, played football. Um, when I was playing football in high school, I, um, specifically my senior year, I'd rolled my ankle a few times, but my senior year rolled my ankle, blew up like a balloon, had that thing wrapped so tight so that my ankle wouldn't move.

And I think this is like the [00:02:00] beginning of the foot stuff, but the ankle got wrapped up so tight and I had that locked in basically for every game for. You know, three, four months, every game in every practice for three or four months. And, um, I think the, the compression of that cleat and the way they wrap that kind of set in motion, a small little imbalance in my right foot.

And then, you know, Was wearing cleats for baseball nonstop. And, um, yeah, ended up playing two years of collegiate baseball and, um, have remained very active after, after college too, like, ran a few Ironmans, um, ran a bunch of marathons. So again, like more stress on the feet. Um, and if those things are outta whack, you know, um, you know, those can eventually lead to, to problems.

But thank God I haven't run into any serious issues, but it's something I'm looking to address, you know, through different things that you've put out there. You know, addressing this foot health problem is a high priority for me this year. So I'm, like, taking it all back, [00:03:00] like, not running nearly as much trying to just, like, really focus on getting the foundation reestablished and rebuilt to me.

It's a, it's a area of the body and an area of biomechanics that is very often overlooked and. Most of the time, it's, it's something that is kind of a game of catch up for a lot of people, especially when they do run into injuries that have just kind of compiled because of a lack of strength or mobility within their foundation.

And a lot of it has to do with just a lack of awareness. And that's kind of what I've seen is the big thing, like, especially, and I was in a similar kind of background as you growing up, played a ton of sports, wore a ton of cleats and unfortunately cleats. They're kind of a tool of the trade. Like, there's not really what I've seen like a great trade off as far as, uh, natural style cleat that performs as well as, you know, what we're seeing with [00:04:00] Nike and New Balance and whatever brand it is.

Um, unfortunately, it just does come. At a cost of playing that sport, but there are some, some ways and tactics that you can combat those effects. Like, I have a client that I just talked to a couple of days ago, uh, that went on a ski trip. And since he's been with me, obviously he's been in the wide toe box shoes and his foot health and his feet have kind of spread out within the first couple of months.

And he's like, dude, these ski boots are wrecking me, but there's just no way around that. Right? Yeah. So there's a little bit of nuance when it does come to, to footwear specifically. But when it comes to foot health, then the way that you approach foot health is really pretty closely aligned with how you would approach improving strength and mobility anywhere else in the body.

It takes a specific routine. It takes a specific, um, diligence and environment to improve the health and function of your feet. And. Just as easily as it kind of takes on some negative [00:05:00] adaptations over the years, it can definitely take on some positive adaptations given the right stimulus. So maybe, um, just as a starting point, I'd love to learn just a little bit about how you got triggered into this.

Just going down this path because it's obviously one that's super important, but it's, it's still, I think, very niche. Like there's only a few wide toe box shoe brains out there. They're becoming more popular, but curious how kind of you got down this path. Yeah, so I do have a physical therapy background.

I've got a degree in physical therapy and I'm licensed and that happened in 2016. and so right after college, I worked at a clinic that was in a town with a couple of division 2 colleges. There's about 4 or 5 surrounding high schools. That would come to this clinic simply for the fact that we were attached to a full gym and in this clinic, there's just a high athletic population.

And that's kind of where all the [00:06:00] athletes came and relatively soon after I started working there, I just noticed a trend that a lot of the athletes that were coming through the clinic were repeat patients. And that kind of sparked like a big question for me, like, why do the athletes tend to have repeated injuries?

And I just noticed that their mechanics were off, you know, when they're completing just basic movements in the gym, like a ton of knee cave during their squats, a lot of flat feet. And then I'm doing a little bit of research, mainly through Instagram. Um, and I ran across an ad for Vivo Barefoot Shoes. I was like, barefoot shoes, that's pretty, pretty big oxymoron.

So I was very intrigued, ordered a pair of evos and started to wear those during the clinic and I didn't transition like I should have. So there was a pretty dramatic effect on my body. And that really sparked curiosity in me. So I just dove as far down the rabbit hole as I could go as [00:07:00] far as why the foundation of my body was affecting.

Like, why was my back sore? It seemed like I could engage my core a little easier. And so I learned that most movement is generated from the ground up. And that's exactly how I started to treat patients in the clinic. And I've been doing that type of style of treatment ever since then. And it got to a point where, yes, I launched a coaching business.

And that is primarily kind of what I'm treating people for is foundational related type of. Injuries, issues, lack of mobility and strength and the problems and the degree of problems are a lot larger than I thought that they were. Um, and luckily that's that's been good for my business. Could you talk through some of those, um, yeah, some of those that long list of of things that can happen from your foot not being properly taken care of.

Yeah, yeah. And [00:08:00] there's a, there's a lot, um, some of the most noticeable, um, injuries or problems that a lot of people deal with, like in the U. S. alone, there are over 2 million cases of plantar fasciitis each year. So that's a big 1, especially in the athletic population. Turf toe is a huge 1 that kind of gets thrown to the same bucket as.

What the medical term is, which is really, uh, just kind of an inward turn of the big toe. A lot of people refer that to a bunion. It's really all kind of grouped into the same category, but a lack of strength function and separation of the big toe has a direct effect on. The health of your arch, so you'll see a lot of people that have a flattened arch, and a lot of that is due to the compromised big toe you get into things like neuromas, which is just mainly caused by an overly restrictive toe box, just like it was for the bunion type [00:09:00] of pattern where there's some nerves that run through the bones of the ball of the foot.

And when you have a little bit of an excessive constriction there. Those nerves kind of get entrapped and therefore the body adapts in a certain way to kind of build extra tissue and it kind of entraps the nerve and creates pain pronated ankles, which just means like your your ankles and your feet are so weak that they just tend to cave in and that's a big one that trickles up the kinetic chain and you start to notice some knee problems.

Um, so a lack of ability to, like, engage the glutes and hamstrings, and then you typically lose a little bit of hip mobility, and therefore you get a lot of low back injuries. Let's say those are more than most common. Um, but yeah, that chin splints is another big one as well. Yeah, those are kind of the main ones.

And if for someone who's at home who like, might not, they might not necessarily be [00:10:00] viewing themselves as someone who has poor foot health, but do you have kind of a diagnostic for people to kind of walk through other than just visual to, to really kind of assess where their foot health is at? Yeah. Just some easy from the first person point of view, if you were to take your socks and shoes off, you know, look at the resting posture of your feet.

Um, if you notice that the toes are quite scrunched together and your big toes are pointed in more than likely, you need to kind of free the feet essentially. So get into a shoe. That's got a nice roomy toe box. Um, another thing is, if you notice. Um, that your ankles and your, your feet kind of tend to flatten out or roll inwards when you're walking.

Maybe you can get somebody to record you, or you can get on a treadmill and assess that way. If you, if you are having some hip or knee problems, um, you do need to take a little bit more of like a. Broad point of [00:11:00] view of how the body works, just because the symptom is where it is, doesn't necessarily mean that that's the root cause of the problem.

So, just being a little bit intuitive about that, and it can be, like, a little bit harder for you to self diagnose. Um, so, you know, hitting up somebody, not necessarily me, but somebody that can kind of do an in person evaluation as far as, you know. Taking a look at your biomechanics, you know, providing some nuanced feedback, I think is very important.

What's, um, you mentioned Vivo barefoot. I feel like they were, they were like the cutting edge of this whole barefoot movement and addressing kind of the biggest issue, which is like most modern footwear is. It's just not really designed for optimal foot health. Um, you know, where do you think the changes like are being made in, in the [00:12:00] footwear industry?

Like, do you think that we're moving in the right direction here, um, to actually start to like have some options that people can use that don't look too goofy, but also are actually like helping people develop healthy feet. Yeah. I feel like we're really on the brink of the acceptance and there's. And I think this is with a lot of new concepts, um, but they're not necessarily new concepts.

Uh, let's take for, for instance, like what you and your brand is about, you know, it's a little bit more about ancestral eating, uh, from a, just a natural human function standpoint, most humans are designed to eat. A meat based diet. They're they're designed to eat, you know, sugars in the form of fruits and honey, right?

And there's a lot of resistance toward that type of diet for some whatever reason, you know, whether it's, you know, the programming that we've kind of been fed over the last few decades or [00:13:00] whatever it might be. And I feel like we're definitely still in the resistance period as far as natural footwear goes, but we're kind of maybe getting close to the crest of the hill people like Vivo barefoot as a brand are doing a great job because they do such a great job of providing a lot of education around.

What their shoes are about and why they are beneficial to the human body. I think one downfall of like the barefoot shoe community was the Vibram five finger toe shoes, uh, one, because they were so dang ugly. And two, because there was a lack of education surrounding that you do have to earn your way back into.

Something that is such a natural form of footwear. Um, and the education aspect is definitely the top priority, which is a big reason why I created my account. I just saw a lack of education for put health specifically on X. And then, yeah, for aesthetic reasons, like you mentioned, you know, [00:14:00] the acceptance definitely has an aesthetic factor to it.

Like, if you're used to wearing Nikes and Adidas and Pumas, whatever they are, they just look different. Barefoot shoes look different. They have a wide toe box. They don't have much of a sole to them. So they, they're different than the norm. Uh, luckily Vivo and brands like Tolos and Wide Footwear. Rizal, these, these brands are doing a great job of bringing a little bit more of an aesthetic appeal to the barefoot shoe world.

And really, that's important because we do live in a pretty consumer driven market. So yeah, totally. It matters. Yeah. The awareness comes from. You know, the purchasing power and purchasing decisions that people are making, you know, if they have options out there, it helps raise the awareness level for everyone.

I'm curious for, like, someone who's trying to fix some of these foot problems is going barefoot just is going barefoot alone. Is that enough? [00:15:00] To start to like, see some of the changes, like, you know, you mentioned someone with bunions if they came in, would going barefoot actually help them like, you know, fully barefoot or do they need to do other things on top of that to kind of right size some of those issues.

Yeah, that's a good question. It kind of depends on your specific situation. Uh, so if you're coming from a little bit larger deficit, like if you're dealing with daily pain that kind of inhibits your activity, then going completely barefoot may be a little bit less tolerable for you. Um, if you're a little bit lower on the pain scale, um, and you're not dealing with a huge deficit, then yeah, simply going barefoot can be extremely beneficial.

Um, and just give yourself a little bit of like a grace period to, to build up. Essentially, when you're going barefoot or let's, you know, throw into minimalist shoes into the mix, there's a law of adaptation that has to be gone through with any situation in the [00:16:00] body. Let's just say that you're, you know, going into the gym for the 1st time at the new year and you haven't been in the gym in a decade.

Right? So you would need to start very slow and steady and progressively work up to that tolerance. And the same thing can be applied to simply go in barefoot. But yes, that obviously barefoot is the most natural state that humans can be in. So, is that optimal? Yes, obviously, because of the grounding component that we get from the electronic exchange with the earth and then there is absolutely 0.

And, um, as people are starting to fix some of those problems, do you notice. Because 1 of the things I've kind of experienced in my own journey here is, you know, I'll start to feel like I'm making some progress. Um, and I'll start to notice maybe, like, some things changing biomechanically and [00:17:00] maybe, like, a little bit of discomfort in certain spots.

Is that common as you start to fix your foot health? So, like, maybe you start feeling some discomfort in other areas as it gets fixed. Yeah, 100%. And I kind of alluded to that happening to me when I first got in my pair of barefoot shoes back in 2016, like I started to notice my mid to low back was a little bit sore.

My feet definitely got a little bit fatigued by the end of the day. Barefoot shoes do a great job of pointing out where your deficits are. And once again, you kind of have to earn your way into that. Um, but yeah, it's very common for a lot of people just to, to notice, man, my, my knees got a little bit sore.

My back was a little bit sore. Um, but there's also some other. Um, kind of advantages that people start to know. Hey, yeah, like I'm able to engage my glutes or feel my hamstrings working during Bulgarian split squats or RDLs. Now, [00:18:00] and that's a lot to do with the fascial connection. And I call it the on switch to the glutes is the big toe.

Um, right? Yeah. There's definitely a component to where, um, you, you will notice some, um, Typically, some soreness for the first couple of months or so, and especially if you're trying to walk longer distances, I don't recommend running in barefoot shoes, but some people do. Yeah, it's interesting. I've seen, I've seen a handful of people run in those vibrams, like pretty long distances.

Is there a reason in particular why you recommend not doing that? Uh, it kind of goes back to, you have to earn your way into minimalist footwear, like for somebody like me, that's, that's been strictly barefoot shoes for almost, you know, almost a decade now, I would probably tolerate it fine. I did run a backyard ultra, uh, back in September, uh, ended up running like 37 and a half miles, uh, but I ran that in ultras, [00:19:00] uh, which is still a zero drop wide toe box shoe, but it has a little bit more cushion to it.

Right. That was simply for the reason that. You know, my feet were going to get fatigued at some point and they definitely did Uh, so having that little bit of assistance definitely helps But yeah, if you've never especially if you've never dabbled in in minimalist footwear, then I would definitely avoid running in them just because of the biomechanic requirement of running in minimalist shoes is exponentially higher than or even the metabolic requirement That is required to run in minimalist shoes or even walk in minimalist shoes is much, much higher than shoes that are actually assisting you in that activity.

Have you, uh, do you have any client stories of them, like, truly transforming their foot health, um, like any radical transformations? I'm imagining that you've seen some crazy stuff. Yeah, uh, quite a few actually, um, [00:20:00] and not to, to be braggy about it, but. Yeah, the process that I've taken some people through has really blown my mind as far as the adaptations that have occurred.

One client of mine, his name was Chris, 10 years of absolutely brutal plantar fasciitis going through the typical profit circle is what I call it of like the orthotics, going to podiatrists, getting injections, and then just within three to three and a half months of taking my approach. He was pain free and he just sent me a text the other day and it's been about 18 months since he finished with me and he's still pain free.

Another Brett, he was from around the Kansas City area, a very similar situation for him. He was dealing with plantar fasciitis for, for 2 years, worked with me for about 4 months and he's still pain free. A couple of years later, uh, 1 crazy, crazy, uh, what a blessing to work with [00:21:00] this guy was I had a client from South Africa.

And he was dealing with a neuromuscular disorder, uh, referred to as, I've actually had three clients with this disease. Um, one being Austin Esposito, he won't mind me shouting his name out. Um, Charcot Marie Tooth is a form of muscular dystrophy. And not many people are aware of, of what CMT does to the human body, but it does leave.

A ton of difficulties as far as biomechanics go, one including kind of a C shaped foot where you have extremely rigid ankles and extremely rigid arches. And typically in adolescence, the doctors will kind of cast the feet and the ankles in order to kind of help shape the feet. And a lot of times they'll do surgery to release a lot of musculature and ligaments.

Well, specifically with this client with from South Africa, he didn't want to go through all that. [00:22:00] Um, especially the surgical things. So he hit me up. We worked together for just sigh of 6 months and during that 6 months, he was able to run in his yard with his daughter for the 1st time in over 10 years.

Wow, he was able to jump for the first time in over 10 years. So that was that was pretty impactful back to Austin. He has CMT as well. He's doing strong, man. He ran a half marathon. He's been on hikes through the AT just absolutely an animal of a human being. I give very little credit to my process, but he gives me a lot of credit for helping him out to get there.

So there's been some cool situations, man. Dude, that's awesome. It's um, it's amazing. I feel like when you're on the other side of some of these pretty serious ailments, like, I would say, like, what I'm dealing with is, is more or less me just trying to get ahead of stuff. But when you hear stories like that, it's like, wow, these, um, these problems can become debilitating if you [00:23:00] don't address them.

Some people have been dealing with them for so long. The fact that you can reclaim. Really like the, just the, the pure joys of life, like running around your backyard with your daughter for the first time in 10 years through some of the work that you're doing, you've got to be, uh, you've got to be pretty proud of some of the stuff that you've been able to accomplish through, uh, through your account.

Yeah, it's, it's pretty hard to fathom sometimes it really is. Um, and I give a lot of credit, mainly all the credit to the clients that actually put in the work to receive these outcomes. Really I can, I can provide the perfect. Routine and give the greatest of guidance, but unless they put it into work, then the results won't come.

So I give a lot of credit to them. I just happen to be given the God given knowledge to provide these type of opportunities and. You know, reaching as many people in those situations as possible is definitely a goal of mine. And that's the [00:24:00] main reason why I'm on X. So, yeah, it's, it's been unbelievable, dude.

That's awesome. Um, are there any tools that you recommend? Like, I can give you kind of my basic approach because I'm basically, I'm basically running into this whole barefoot lifestyle. Pretty blind. I'm following your stuff from afar. But I've got the vibram shoes. I'm trying to wear those regularly as and I'll just I'm running.

Probably I'm running less than 10 miles a week. I have like a regular weekly run on Tuesdays and maybe I'll go out and get a few few extra miles in and then basically I'm focusing on walking. Truly just like reframing my biomechanics from the ground up, but I'm doing all my walking in those vibram shoes.

And then I'm also using, I found some toe spreaders on Amazon. We'd love to get your take on toe spreaders, but basically between those two. I'm trying to wear my shoes much less. And if I do wear shoes or they're barefoot, um, the barefoot style [00:25:00] of shoe or open toe box, um, is there anything else out there?

And then I'm also, I'm also using a golf ball regularly to like massage out the bottom of my feet and work through some pain points. Um, so curious to get your take on any other tools out there and, you know, kind of how would you tweak what I'm doing in terms of my approach? Yeah. I mean, as far as, you know, what you've done so far, if your body is tolerating it.

And then I would kind of keep down the same path just progressively, um, some notable tools are obviously minimalist wide toe box. Shoes are a great tool. The toe spreaders that you mentioned. There's a few different variations of toe spreaders. I've put out quite a bit of content on toe spreaders.

There's two different versions that I actually send my client along with a lot of other tools. Um, one is what I deem as an active spacer. They have the loops around the end, which just kind of keeps them on the feet a little easier. It's kind of like the strap on a pair of Crocs. [00:26:00] The other versions of spacers have like little slits between the big and pinky toe.

They don't stay on your feet quite as well. However, um, they do provide a little bit more spacing. I just had a company reach out to me that actually combined the both of them. I'm not an affiliate for them yet, but they're, we're trying to get that set up. Um, so spaces are a good tool. Rolling your foot over a lacrosse ball is also a great tool or a golf ball like you're doing.

Um, I actually send all of my clients a couple of sets of resistance bands, um, that can be used in a variety of ways. You can just get as creative as you want. Um, I actually sent all my clients a half foam roller because of the cylindrical surface. Um, if you stand on it long ways, then that allows the foot to actually contour over the, the curvature.

Um, and that really does a great job of spreading what is called the transverse arch. There's actually three arches within the foot and the transverse arch is at [00:27:00] the ball of the foot. Uh, so it does a great job of opening that up. And then one. Really also weird tool, very similar to the toe shoes is toe socks.

Um, I was about three to four years in of wearing barefoot shoes exclusively, but I was still wearing your typical Nike socks. And it wasn't until I switched to toe socks that I noticed that my toes play dramatically increased like the spreading of my toes. And if you think about the normal composition of socks, it's just like polyester and cotton wrapped.

Over elastic and that elastic binds your toes together. So toe socks as weird as they feel at first They really do add the added benefit of allowing the toes to spread and grip the ground I would say those are probably the most important tools if we're talking about coming from a little bit more of a deficit Side of things like if you are dealing with pain, then I will use a little [00:28:00] bit of of artificial art support But we never want to become overly reliant on tools like that We can use them.

They're in our tool bag for when we need them. It's kind of like a weightlifting belt You don't want to go into every session with extra support because eventually your core is gonna become reliant on the belt, right? tools like that You kind of have to use A little bit more kind of in a smart way.

Yeah, totally. Totally. Yeah. I found just all the little tools that the half foam roller ones really interesting. There's a, there's a brand out there. I don't have a name off the top of my head, but I keep getting targeted for him because I'm going down this barefoot rabbit. And, um, it's basically what you're talking about, but smaller.

Um, so it's not the, you know, it's not as wide as a normal foam roller, but, um, it's interesting seeing kind of how the different applications of it. I'm literally just learning about the product through the ads that they're sending [00:29:00] me, but, uh, it seems to make a lot of sense to me. And the way you described it was interesting.

Or, you know, you're. You're able to actually get your, your foot functioning around something that has a little bit more of a, a surface to it. So you can really spread those feet out your, your feet out. Um, so that's cool. Yeah, you're probably looking at the soulmate from a company called the foot collective.

That's I guess, I actually have, um, 1 of their balance beams. Uh, that's extremely fun to play on and I feel like a kid when I'm out there playing on it, it's just a round tube essentially with a couple of little. In pieces to where it levels it out on the floor, but the soul mates, a great tool. It's essentially, like you said, same thing as the half foam roller, but a little bit smaller.

And the reason like. Those type of tools where they're a little bit more of a versatile type of surface to stand on. It really just mimics the natural services that as primal human beings, we're going out and, you know, we're traversing the land and every step that you [00:30:00] take is really different from the last.

So your foot and your ankle has to articulate differently up the kinetic chain, the glutes and the hamstring and the core is firing because of that versatile surface. Uh, so these are just. Tools that really kind of are a supplement to a lack of versatile surfaces in our day to day, you know, we're just walking around on concrete and hardwood floors all day, right?

Yeah, I've got it. I've actually got a funny story for you. So, um, we, we used to have this office and in the office, it was just like massive backyard. And for whatever reason, the landlord covered the backyard with like these pretty big stones. Like they're probably the size of like this mouse. And, um, it was terrible to walk on.

Like everyone, everyone hated going out there for like the, for months because it just, it was so brutal to walk on, but all of us would walk around the office bare feet. And so I started getting to the point where I was [00:31:00] like, I hated it, but I started to kind of like it because I would, I would notice that my feet were having to adapt more to the different surfaces and I, it did start to become more of like a massage for the foot, um, even though it was like, it was painful, but I started to notice that.

And I was like, man, I gotta, I gotta find some more adaptive surfaces to get my feet on. Cause I feel like that kind of almost would naturally kind of fix some of these foot problems that I was, I was working through. Yeah. Yeah, and it, it really will over time. It definitely does. I'm, I'm definitely the weirdo that is going on the hikes and I'm at the trail head taking my shoes off before I go on the hike.

Really? Uh, it's just a. It's a freeing experience. It really is. Uh, you, you kind of feel connected to, to everything around you. Um, and there's a little bit of like hippie magic to it. Like, there's this concept called reflexology, um, and it has to do with certain areas on the foot are actually [00:32:00] connected to like your internal organs.

Um, like some Chinese medicine. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And if you elicit pressure on these certain points, then it's like very beneficial for those areas internally. Um, yeah, definitely some Chinese medicine type stuff, but have you noticed, um, like, as you've, as you've gotten more comfortable doing that, like taking your shoes off of the trial head, are you noticing things after a long enough period of time?

Just like the adaptation building up. So it's not as painful to walk on those bare surfaces. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, in 20, I think it was 2022, uh, went out to Arizona with, uh, Zach Hummel and Mike Donatelli. I'm sure you've seen those guys on Timex. Um, and we climbed Bear Mountain, uh, which is a pretty tough mountain in the middle of Sedona.

And my feet were pretty calloused up going into that. Um, and [00:33:00] it was, it was funny, like Zach intended to go barefoot. But he was like, man, I just haven't developed my callus yet. I got to put the shoes back on because he caught himself looking down the whole time. Um, but you, the thickest skin found on the body is on the soles of the feet.

And if you start to go barefoot more often, very quickly, you will notice that that skin becomes quite thick. It does tend to callous over very quickly as well. That's just a natural adaptation to if you think about it in a primal standpoint, you know, if you're going after. Uh, a prey, or if you're being chased by a predator, uh, and then way back when your, your feet didn't have time to be sensitive to the terrain below.

So, uh, and if you look at third world countries or even indigenous tribes, like the calluses and the way that their feet are shaped are very, very dramatically different than the Western world. Uh, it's because they've really been quite untouched by modern [00:34:00] footwear. Hmm. That's awesome. Um, yeah, you're like inspiring me in the moment just to go on a barefoot hike off to go off to go hit one of these trails here in Austin to test it out.

Um, I definitely better start before the, uh, the summertime heat hits down there. Right? Totally. Totally. I did. Um, I did Ladybird Lake, the full loop. It's a 10 mile loop. I did that in the vibrams, but, um, I'd be worried a little bit about glass or something like that. But, um, Now, knowing that it's, you know, the thickest skin on the body, um, is there, are there any exercises that you would recommend to people?

Like if they're listening to this and they're like, all right, this is interesting. I don't necessarily have. You know, foot problems right now, but I want to prioritize my foot health. Um, what sort of things would you recommend to people in terms of exercises or habits that they can get in the habit of doing on a regular basis?

Yeah, yeah. So there are some foot specific [00:35:00] exercises that are kind of a signature. Um, I post a ton of them on X repeatedly just for the simple fact of spreading awareness. Some things like a simple arch contraction where you're kind of trying to keep the toes in a little bit of a spread position. Keep the big toe down and just working on contracting the arch by itself.

And if, if you do this standing, you'll kind of notice that you have to torque your knees out to the side a little bit. And what that does is kind of connecting the, the hips. To the feet or the center of the body to the foundation of the body. That's 1 of my signatures. Um, if you're dealing with a little bit of, like, overpronation, then you can do a caphras from the ball between the heels.

So, kind of sweep your heels into the ball doing a caphras. That's going to be an anti pronation movement or a supinated calf raise is the technical term. Um, any type of like balance beam work is great. Um, just the simple [00:36:00] routine of progressively getting into barefoot shoes is great. And even if you have the opportunity to go barefoot or in barefoot shoes during your normal leg days, then.

That really provides the opportunity for your, your feet to behave a little bit more naturally while they're under load. So loading progressively is the key to gaining strength. And if you can load the feet, like that's, that's a perfect opportunity. Some Bulgarian split squats, even regular squats, deadlifts, RDLs, whatever you're doing on your feet is technically a foot exercise, but you just have to give the feet the freedom to do what they need to do biomechanically.

Hmm. That's awesome. Are there any, are there any exercises that aren't necessarily foot specific that you would recommend? Like, I mean, you just read it off a few, but I'm thinking like, even like a side lunge or, you know, a progression into a pistol squat, like those, I feel like those types of [00:37:00] things, like I was talking to my buddy this weekend and he was, it's like, I can't believe you can, like, you can do a pistol squat.

And I'm like, it's honestly, Hey, free. It's really more of a matter of, um, actual mobility than strength, uh, just ankle mobility, um, and, and hip, but like, um, and, and I would, I would just practice that stuff in high school. So, once you have the mobility, you can kind of keep it. Um, and so I'm just curious.

Yeah. Are there any other lower body exercises that people could tap into just, you know, having a little bit more awareness of, of overall foot health? Yeah, one that I've actually recently implemented into giving to my clients is a skater squat. So a little bit different setup. It's kind of like a mix between a single leg RDL, a reverse lunge and a Bulgarian.

So the way to set this up, if you're just listening, obviously I'm not going to do it on the video either, but, um, grab a hold of a racket first [00:38:00] and then get to where you're far enough back to where. Um, when you go down into a single leg squat that your knee is able to go over your toe, um, and then the rear leg, you want to keep it off the ground as if you were doing a Bulgarian, like, it's kind of behind you, but you just keep that leg from touching the ground.

So you want to take your rear knee towards the floor and to the point where. The working leg needs to kind of stop and then you can go up. That's a great exercise for loading ankle mobility because of the loaded knee over toe. And then in addition to that, like you said, like a lateral squat is also great because of that loaded foot and ankle complex.

A simple reverse lunge. But keeping your torso a little bit more closed over the top of your thigh is also great for loaded ankle mobility and foot strength. And the reason you want [00:39:00] to kind of close the torso over the thigh is that lengthens your glutes a little bit at the bottom of the reverse lunge.

Therefore, you get a little bit more of that foot to glute connection because you are going from the most lengthened position of your glute, and then you have to push through the foot in order to get out of that depth. That's awesome. Yeah, I found that just some of those exercises. That you're talking about, like kind of in that knees over toes, universe.

Um, I, I found that they, them done in conjunction with just being barefoot have really opened up a lot of my mobility through my entire lower body and, and uh, like posterior chain, like my hip mobility has gotten much better just by, you know, doing a little bit of vet knees over toes training, uh, here and there.

Not even really prioritizing it too much, but just a little bit of it can go such a long way. [00:40:00] Yeah, it really can. Um, and shout out to Ben Patrick for all the positive outcomes that he's created. I have taken some principles from his work. Like I really like the The cliche term he uses strength through length.

Um, I love that term. Um, some of the exercises he prescribes, um, I avoid just because of client feedback. Typically, some of it makes it worse. Um, but yeah, some of his concepts I've definitely adopted into how I'm treating clients as well. That's awesome. One of the things you had mentioned earlier, uh, you mentioned Zach Hamel and a few of these other, uh, X guys who are, um, active on X and posting some incredible stuff.

Um, I know you have your retreats that you do those separate from. What you're doing on the, kinda like the functional movement side of things through, through the Barefoot Will account. It's more of like a men's retreat. Yeah, it is. It is. Um, so within the last year or so, [00:41:00] um, it was a little bit harder for me to elicit those retreats.

Uh, I did have a baby girl, um, so that right, that changed a lot for me. Uh, but yeah, the men's retreats, they're kind of in the, the brand of Barefoot Wheel. They are branded a little bit different. Uh, Rove outdoor experience is the technical. Name for the retreats itself. It is men's retreats. Um, basically, it is the opposite of what men are typically going through on a day to day basis.

And what we are going through as men is we're always reliant on an agenda, a calendar connectivity to the Internet to the entire world and we're always kind of. Placed into modernity and what I do through these retreats is taking guys out into the woods for either three nights, four days or four nights and five days.

And there is zero connectivity to the outside world. Typically, we hardly ever run into anyone else. As far as humans go, [00:42:00] I give the guys the option, but I've never had any buddy resist putting your phone inside my truck and leaving it there for the entire duration. And then while we're out in the woods, um, I supply all of the gear, all of the food.

It's, it's literally an all inclusive trip. Like, once you hop off the plane or you drive up, I take care of everything. Um, and I believe that's very important for me to serve to completion. And for the guys that are typically coming, it's, it's hard for them to accept, like, look. I'm going to be serving you on this trip.

You don't have to do literally anything, literally anything. Um, and then there's also no reference for time, except for the sun. So, um, and then agenda wise, I never provide an itinerary. Um, so the guys have. Absolutely zero clue as far as what's coming up next. They know that the sun rose and they smell me cooking breakfast.

Lunch will be at some point. Dinner will be at [00:43:00] some point. And then we'll go to sleep. But what goes on in between they have no clue. So it's a pretty unique experience, but a pretty profound experience as well. For most of the guys, like I took on my last retreat, the default Kings, which is. And before Jack Bly entered into his business coaching, uh, he came with him as well.

And man, those guys ate it up. Yeah. Yeah. A common consensus on those retreats is, man, we've been out here for three days and it feels like we've been out here for three months. Like time just. And that that's a big slogan for me or motto or mantra is live slow and to me, the, the epitome of living slow is when you get into an environment like that.

What's, um, what kind of spurred the inspiration for you putting those on? Um. And, um, yeah, I'm sure you've seen so many cool experiences of people [00:44:00] just for the first time in a long time, just getting fully unplugged from their day to day life. I'm sure the spiritual awakening that some, some people have after that, even just three days, I mean, it can be profound.

Yeah, a lot of it had to do with, uh, a couple of different points is embracing the discomfort of that. Um, that's a common consensus is it's a little bit uncomfortable, especially the 1st, couple of nights when you go to bed and you're like, you're not scrolling your phone. You haven't talked to your loved ones, but the loved ones know where you're at and they have access to contact me if they need to.

But like, eliciting these retreats was a big priority for me because I had a. Yeah. When I was a kid, my parents took my sister and I camping quite often. We stayed on the lake or the river. We slept in tents. And as I continued and got out of college, I was always looking for an opportunity to be outside and in nature.

And to me, [00:45:00] that was where I always felt closest to God. And I don't market these retreats as like a Christian spiritual. Retreat, but that trend typically always happens on these retreats. Like, the guys are always embracing the opportunity to where there is no external distraction or even like, audio or inputs.

To where they can finally sit still, and to me, one of the most profound realizations in my spiritual life was my prayer life really, really improved when I shut up and let God just guide my thoughts. And so I was. Actually journaling, sitting, just letting God guide my thoughts one day, and I was thinking to myself, man, how could I reciprocate this for other people?

Because every time I post pictures and videos, like, it, it just doesn't have the same effect. I have to bring people out here. [00:46:00] So, you listening, those retreats provided that opportunity for other people to experience what I was. Repeatedly experiencing. I, uh, up until my daughter was born, I'd actually take a couple of, uh, solo camping overlanding style trips a year.

Um, and they were always pretty uncomfortable, but extremely rewarding. Um, and I was like, this just has to happen for other guys. I mean, the, I, first off love the, the faith. I feel like if you're going into nature, you're naturally going to start having some more, um, deeper experiences and unplugging from the day to day.

It's like, it's only natural for a group of guys to start to experience that. But, um, you know, I think, like, even just from, like, a biblical perspective, like, Jesus goes into the wilderness. Like to connect with God. So it doesn't, it doesn't surprise me that that's kind of like where this whole vision came [00:47:00] from and then you're, you acting on it, um, sounds like that was very inspired by, by the Lord.

Yeah, most definitely, man. And it definitely kind of parallels to always think back to when God created Adam from the dust from the dirt. And to me, there's something very profound about that. And I think guys have a connection with. The dirt, like the wilderness nature, like, that's where we are derived and created from, and we should definitely return to that.

And I think that's why, you know, when you are on that hike, and you just feel relaxed, you feel spiritually connected. There's a big reason for that. Especially as men, man. Hmm. Yeah. Have you, um, where do the conversations tend to trend towards out there? Like, do you guys have, or like you're a believer, um, like do you kind of open that [00:48:00] conversation up?

Um, or like, you know, what, what do you guys typically end up talking about? Yeah, that's a great question. So, um, typically. Included, like, in the equipment kit that I give all the guys, I will include a pin in a journal, um, and for a small period of time, I will just kind of let the guys pour out what happens to be on the journal.

And then every once in a while, I'll kind of give some prompts, um, just for them to reflect on, but I'm, um, I'm really kind of looking towards where their mind and spirit leads them. And then, uh, we can have a conversation around that, uh, because your, your priorities. Become very evident when essentially everything is taken away, like where your mind goes when there's nothing else distracting you is probably what is most important to you.

And a lot of times that's going to [00:49:00] be family, you know, people really care about the success and their mission of their business or whatever it might be. Um, so that that's a pretty profound aspect of it and. Um, like I always take the word of God into the woods, and so if I feel compelled to to share something that I was reading and how it parallels to it, to what's going on in my life at that point, I'll always share.

Um, but I don't know. This is kind of the style of, like, how I share my faith. It's never shoving some something down someone's throat. It's always just kind of depicting on how it. Reflects my life at the current moment and whether that's a struggle, whether that's something that's kind of profoundly positively impacted me at the moment, then it just depends on where I'm at in that state of my life.

That's awesome. Yeah. I love I love the simplicity of getting in nature. You know, seeking out that [00:50:00] stillness and then having just a blank canvas in the journal to really jot down your thoughts and just try to put words to the experience that you're having. Like, I think just finding a rhythm like that, like, being able to do that regularly is can just be so filling.

Um, I feel like, you know, a lot of times. In what we've, what we've started talking about at the meat mafia, like I was telling you before we hit record, like our whole, um, I'd say the themes and topics that we talk about have evolved over time. And one of the things that we would talk about early on is nutrition, obviously very important, but I think that like spiritual, spiritual nourishment.

Um, supersedes that and, uh, that's something that we've realized on our journey. Um, and, um, just trying to, like, help people escape even just diet culture, too. Um, but like, you know, outside of that, it's like there is a deeper level of nourishment that I think we're all seeking, um, in our, you know, [00:51:00] in our lives.

And that deep level of purpose can be found in those remote places away from everything else. So I just, I just love what you're doing, dude. Appreciate it, man. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. And it's really cool. Like the, the evolution of, you know, obviously your podcast and the way that meat mafia is, is kind of heading in, um, to me, the path is just continuously being paved really for, for y'all at the same time as your audience.

And, you know, you're, you're feeding the, the audience, you know, very authentically what is happening, uh, through the podcast and, you know, the journey that in my opinion, God's taking you through. Yeah. Totally. Well, dude, this has been great. I appreciate you coming on. I hope people have been, uh, inspired to address their, uh, their foot health, even if it seems like it's in good health.

I hope, uh, They go check out your page. Um, Will, where can people find you and, [00:52:00] uh, any, uh, any closing thoughts? Yeah, just wanted to say thanks a ton. It's great to meet you and I look forward to heading down the path of, you know, continuously building this relationship for sure. If you want to find me, my main platform is definitely going to be on X.

It's barefoot underscore will underscore. If you want to find me on Instagram, it's the exact same username. Um, I did just have a website that was built and I'm very, very proud of it. Uh, you can find that at barefield, excuse me, barefoot will coaching. com. Um, and it will kind of provide you a little bit of onslaught about my, my services.

You can see some testimonials on there. And then if you go to the products page, you can see all the discounts and affiliate codes for all the products that I recommend. And then. Kind of getting into the YouTube space. So if you want to search for, for barefoot, we'll same thing. Barefoot underscore will underscore on YouTube.

I would appreciate any love there, dude. I love it. Appreciate you a [00:53:00] ton. And, uh, yeah, we'll stay in touch. Let's talk soon. Great. See you. Well, thanks.