#391 Scott Hickle: What Your Poop Says About Your Health

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[00:00:00] Scott, thanks for being here, brother Brett. Thanks for having me. I've never, uh, this is actually probably like our first sit down conversation because every time we meet up we're just going on five mile walks together.

I don't think we've ever sat down to talk. No, actually, this is the first time, which I love. That's amazing. Yeah. No, this is fantastic, man. I'm, dude, I'm so pumped for this episode for a number of reasons. Um, I'm really pumped to dig into all the work that you and the team are doing at Throne, but I always love to give our audience a little bit of context into how we meet, and we have a, we have a great story because prior months before I ever met you, I, no joke, probably had like three to five different people that told me about you and the work you guys are doing at Throne because they knew that I had ulcerative colitis and the Meat Mafia podcast and they saw the connection and so you were on my radar.

And I think it was, was it Bill Murphy's South? Was there, was it a Wellness Day event that we actually met at for the first time? It was at Sapien Center. Sapien Center. It was for the Bitcoin having Yes. Conversations. Yes. So it's so funny, we were talking about before we recorded the serendipity of events, the [00:01:00] things that you say yes to, and connecting the dots backwards, how it almost always works out.

And I think I was almost gonna not go to that. And then the day before they offered us the ability to just sample some noble smoothies there, said yes to it. And then that's how you and I met. I had no idea that was your path to that event. Mine was, uh, a buddy of mine who's, you know, very plugged into the crypto community, was speaking at that event.

And I went just to support him. I'm not particularly a crypto guy. And it was, I felt outta my element there too. Mm-hmm. But turns out there was a lot of cool, you know, interesting health and wellness people there and, uh, made this friendship out of it. Oh man. I mean, I. That's the, that's just the value of being in Austin.

Right. We've talked about that at length before. So you are, so you're a Lubbock Lubbock guy originally, and then born and raised. Born and raised in Lubbock. Went to school in ut. Correct. And then what, what was your path from there that led you, did you, you didn't stay in Austin the entire time, right? I stayed Austin the entire time.

I've been here like almost 15 years. Wow. Yeah. So 18 in [00:02:00] Lubbock. Came here for school, stuck around ever since. Like, I've tried to leave a couple times, but uh, every time something reached out and sucked me back in and yeah. Now I'm just, I've given up the idea of leaving Austin 'cause like, where else would I be right now?

I know. 'cause it's got, it's a, especially for you, it's a, it's a blend of everything you want. Right. It's the most perfect place there. There's, you know, ambitious young, high energy tech talent. Mm. And then there's like, it's, I would consider it like the capital of the, you know, the alt health movement. Hmm.

Right. Like so many of the people. Leading companies that are incredibly relevant and adjacent to me live here. And they're my friends and they're, you know, 10, 20, a hundred steps down the path, so to speak, from where I am today. And they're all shining their flashlights behind me. Illuminating path, showing me where the potholes are.

Yes. Yeah. What's funny about that too is like, I always think about Austin and the geography and the fact that the city truly is an oasis, [00:03:00] but there's nothing really about Austin itself that makes it an oasis. Like, there's beautiful parts of the city, you know, warm weather a lot of the year, but you know, there's, it's not a beach.

There's no beach, there's no mountains. But it's the people, man. A hundred percent. It's to your point, there's no beach, no mountains. Like my, the perennial bummer for me, like my favorite activities all involve beaches and mountains. Mm. But like, Austin's halfway to everywhere and, uh, it's just the, the community here is second to none.

Yes. So what was it like I. Growing up in Lubbock, did you know that you wanted to get outta there and eventually be in a bigger city? Like what was that experience like? So, I mean, Lubbock is like country. Mm-hmm. And I am not, I've never owned boots, never owned a cowboy hat. Um, and so I, I knew like from a very young age, like this was not my forever home.

Right. There's like a, a joking phrase back home. Right. Like Lubbock or leave it and like I left it. Yeah. Um, and now my entire family's left. It was, um, [00:04:00] without getting too much into it, but like basically ended up there because my parents split up when I was very young and ended up with a geographic restriction.

Um, my mom's from Canada and there was a conversation like, well, you know, in the split, like, were we gonna go back to Canada? And you know, as young, like, I was three and my brother was one. Was that gonna be a thing? And so I was like, no. They both committed to staying in Lubbock until my younger brother was 18 years old, which is how we ended up staying there my entire childhood.

And. It was a great childhood, honestly. Right. Like I, I was a nerd. Like there was a lot of late blooming that happened in my life just because I, it was a fairly insulated space, you know? I didn't have my first drink until my 21st birthday. Nice. Um, well, not nice, I just say that 'cause like, you know, if you're not out drinking and getting in trouble in Lubbock, like you're just pretty much, you know, cloistered up in your basement playing a lot of guitar like I did, or playing a bunch of video games with your friends.

It was like a, you know, quaint suburban upbringing. Yeah. And were, I'm [00:05:00] imagining you were a good student too. 'cause you're, you're an engineering guy first, is that correct? Yeah, I was a mechanical engineer at ut. I was an okay student in high school. I was a really good student in college. And if I had to say I have one regret in life, it's that I was like, probably too good a student in college and, and looking back, no one's ever asked me about my GPA once.

Yeah, it was really good. Yes. So what, what changed when you got to college versus growing up?

So I think the, the formative experience for me was I failed my first calculus test. I, I went to UT in the business school. Mm. Uh, I knew like my dad's an entrepreneur. I knew growing up I wanted to be an entrepreneur. Uh, and so I started at UT in the business school, took my first calculus class my first semester of freshman year and failed that test.

The first test miserably. Mm. And I went to my professor and asked her, you know, brought her the test. I was like, Hey, what can I do to make sure this doesn't happen again? And she looks down at my score and she looks at, at me and she goes, I suggest you find a degree that doesn't require math. [00:06:00] I just like, walked out of there with my tail between my legs, totally s sunken hearted, and dropped her class.

And then spent the, the next, you know, the remainder of that semester and the following semester, just kinda like sulking, right. Like, that was like a, like my first like real, you know, existential crisis I've ever had. Mm-hmm. Like, what do I wanna do with my life? Like, shit, if I can't do math, like, am I gonna do this, like this degree plan?

And I decided. The one thing I did too that was really helpful is I went to every like, guest speaker that came through the business school that year and like, you know, the after hours guest lectures that come around like five or six. And I would walk them all to their car after their lecture and ask them like, Hey, if you were 18 years old, doing it all over again, but knowing what you know now, like what would you do different?

Mm. You know, I was like, you know, managing directors, CEOs, entrepreneurs, founders, and a lot of 'em were like, go get a technical degree. Right? Like, you can learn business in the real world. And, and one guy said it to me really well, he was like, look, go become an engineer. Like an engineer can wake up [00:07:00] tomorrow, start a business, a business person will not wake up tomorrow with the knowledge and skills of an engineer.

Mm. I was like, okay. Uh, and so I transferred into Geosystems Engineering and, uh, hydromechanics was, which was the only way I could get into the engineering school because it was technically a good degree program hosted by the geology school. Okay. Jointly with the engineering school. And it was the smallest program in the smallest college at Texas University And.

I snuck my way in. I got into the engineering program through that. Um, and basically just committed my, the next four years, you know, I was on the five-year plan at that point, but I committed the next four years to learning math because I'd realized, like I did not wanna go through life convinced that I was the kid that couldn't do math.

'cause then I'd be going through life with like, you know, these beliefs about like, who I was that were in inherently restrictive. Mm-hmm. Um, and so now I still can't do math. Yeah. But I [00:08:00] could at one point. And that's what matters. Yes. And you can hire the people that can do the math for you, so you don't have to worry about that.

Totally. And it turns out the math that I failed, like I don't know that we've done any calculus at Throne. Right. Like, I take it back. There's actually some differential equations that we plan to be doing. But yeah, for the most part, like there's shockingly little math done outside of spreadsheets in the real world.

Yeah. It, even as you're speaking even makes me wonder. I think about this question a lot. Thinking about like the next chapter of life and getting married and having kids. I even wonder, will our kids will, will they even need to go to school? And I've heard you say this before, that so much of what you've learned as a founder and through this whole path of entrepreneurship, you, it needs, you can only learn it by like actually getting your hands dirty and putting them in the soil and making those mistakes.

And, you know, you went to UT incredible school. I went to Babson, you know, tried and true entrepreneurship program and still like 99% of the kids that I graduated with just took, you know, standard banking, consulting, sales jobs. And you know, we had incredible professors and [00:09:00] actually some of the relationships with the professors are still my biggest connection point to that school, which is really cool.

Um, but outside of that, like everything that we're doing now is literally just figuring out in the real world. Totally. Uh, uh, you just have to be willing to fail and have a peace with sucking at something long enough to get good at it. Yes. A peace with sucking until you long, long enough. Until you get good at it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. And like I suck at a lot of things. Yeah. But if I enjoy the process of doing it and like, you know, falling and getting hurt actually doesn't hurt that bad if you just accept it as part of the process. Right. Like if you played, you know, any sports as a kid, you know? Mm-hmm. Like learning the learning curve of a sport involves often a lot of falling in pain.

I did gymnastics growing up. Mm-hmm. And like, you know, learning new skills. I mean, you fall for the first 200 times, you try a new thing. Yes, definitely. Yeah. I always think about, um, I love the Founder's podcast [00:10:00] episode on this guy, I think his name is Izzy Sharp, who's the founder of the Four Seasons. And his quote that's ringing in my ears right now is oftentimes entrepreneurship is just your capacity to take pain.

Yes. And that's true. And then the nuance of it, like you said, was yes, it's taking pain, but doing it with a smile on your face and trying to enjoy the ride as much as possible too. A hundred percent. Right. It's, that's exactly right. Yeah. So much of it is just like a mental, mental battle and a head game and everything like that.

Yeah. And then it's a great joy to get to do these things, you know, like, like sports, you know, my favorite sports are skiing, mountain biking, kite boarding, you know, hiking, like, but those first three, skiing, mic skiing, mountain biking, and kite boarding, I've hurt myself badly doing all three of those things.

Mm-hmm. Right. I've dislocated my shoulder skiing, I dislocated my shoulder mountain biking, and then I've like gotten dragged across reefs, kite boarding and like, you know, scraped up and bloody, and like, what a joy to get to be out there in the world doing these crazy activities involving, you know, momentum.

Like, I [00:11:00] think about this all the time, like, you know, our ancestors, like, even like four generations ago, could never have experienced these things. Mm-hmm. Like surfing was the close that they had, like, but just these momentum sports where your body's moving through the world at like, you know, high speeds, like it's exhilarating and comes with risk and like.

You just accept that? Yes. And like that's a great metaphor for entrepreneurship. It really is, man. It's interesting too, how, even though you're only 18 years old as a freshman, you had the foresight to still go to all these lectures and seminars and talks and actually like seek those people out and build relationships.

Do you still have any connections with any of the people that you met there? And this might be a tough question to answer. That's a great, that's a great question. Uh, honest answer is no. There's one professor, so I failed that first calculus class, you know, set me on this self-discovery path. The second calculus class I took, you know, a year later was this with a professor named Yuri Reman, who is just tremendously.[00:12:00]

Inspirational and wise man. And I still keep up with him, you know, every year or so I'll touch base with him. But other than that, it was just the lessons that were worthwhile, not necessarily the connections at that point in my life. Yes. With Yuri, was he inspirational because you got the sense that he really believed in you even at a young age?

He really believed in everyone. He believed in humans' capacity. He was just a great humanist and he, he would stop his lectures on, you know, derivatives and integral calculus to teach life lessons that just randomly would pop into his head. And it was just, you know, I kept two separate notebooks when I was in his class.

One for math and one for just wisdom. Wow. That he would say. And it was great. And he just had such an inspiring story and would, you know, look everybody in the eyes. And so we made a deal that was if I made an A in his class. Uh, I was really into music at the time. If I made an A in his class, then he and I would have a jam session together.

Wow. 'cause he played guitar and I made the a and then he pulled me aside after the semester was over and he was like, Hey [00:13:00] man, I would love to make good on this, but like, my Parkinson's is advanced to the point where like, I don't think I can play guitar anymore. But, uh, you know, congrats on the a. Yeah.

Well, that's cool that he even like had the foresight to go to you and tell, and tell you that and everything like that. Dude, just honor, just, just a super high integrity dude. But like, at the end of the day, I wouldn't, you know, busting my as, I mean, literally it was like a 30, 40 hour week endeavor to make an a in that class.

Like, I was not good at math, but I really wanted it unless less because I really cared about that damn chest anymore because I wanted to make him proud. Yes. Like he, he's the type of person that you're just like, shit. Like, I don't wanna let this guy down. Yes. I mean, that Yuri story is so great for a number of reasons, particularly you think about.

The weight that you have as a professor or a teacher and the amount of students you're able to impact. And just, especially as a young man, if one person showcases that belief in you, like, we're just craving that so much. Right? A hundred percent. Yeah. And then, and then we realize too, hey, you don't have to actually be a professor like when you're a throne or in your day-to-day life or what I'm doing as well, you can actually just choose [00:14:00] to showcase that.

Like just inject that energy and optimism into people. And I feel like you're the perfect example of that. It, well, I appreciate that. It means a lot. There's someone I met with a couple years ago, a guy named Eric Schneider, who was serial founder and he told me very early on he, he's a hardware guy. Hmm.

So at the very beginning of Throne where we were even exploring like, Hey, is this a thing we're gonna go do? We made it a point to meet with as many hardware people as we could. And I, you know, I interviewed to work with Eric back, like when I was still in school, like as a possible summer internship and ended up going somewhere else, but still had kept in touch with him on LinkedIn.

So I reached back out and, uh. He was super generous at this time. You know, we had several meetings in those early days with Throne just getting our bearings around how to build a new hardware devices, not hardware people. And he mentioned offhand in one of those meetings, he was like, you know, I try and spend like 10 to 15% of my week just helping other founders.

15 to 20%, 10 to 15%, but still lot, man, that's a crazy percentage. But [00:15:00] also, like, I think about that at least once a month. Wow. I mean, and, and I, I, most mornings now, my first meeting in the morning, I try and make it a coffee walk where I go meet other founders who are fundraising or just want to, you know, they're passing through town and wanna chat.

But like, because the other thing is it is just the energy of talking with people who, oh my gosh, are in the arena, right? Yes. Is just so fun. Yes. And I love, I love the, the mile, the model that you have of like doing walks outside with people. That's something that I actually picked up from you and I've been implementing it a lot more where like, number one, your, your personality's inspiring.

We feed off of each other's energy. But I just remember that first coffee, like we just took a couple long loops around, around the east side, had some coffee, sun talked, really felt like I got to know you versus just like being kind of confined at a table, at a coffee shop or over dinner too. And so it's like we're getting steps, we're meeting, we're figuring out ways that we can help each other.

And then a couple, a couple months later, it all came full circle. But that is an interesting point. Like the, the 10 to [00:16:00] 15% is a lot. And these people, you know, other people need help. We need help. And then on a weird, selfish way, you always feel better when you talk to people and you just try and add value without the expectation of receiving something in return.

Absolutely. Right. Like the, the walkout was on this morning was with, uh, a new friend, new to Austin, who's fundraising for his startup right now. And, you know, fingers crossed he's signing term sheets today. We're super excited for him. That's awesome. And I, you know, I made a few introductions for him and I don't know, uh, I know for a fact actually that the ones he's signing with are not the folks I made the introductions to, but like, he was just incredibly grateful for those intros.

And like, at the end of, he's like, man, how can I help you? I'm like, dude, just like keep me posted on the journey, right? Like, let's do this again next month. Definitely. Like, now that you have the money, like what are you gonna do with it? Yes. I wanna follow that part too. Yes. No, that's so just like giving without expectation because you know, that's happened in your life.

It's happened in my life and that stuff just pays itself forward. And something I've been more mindful of too is. Just follow ups to the people that helped me. Yeah. Like him with you. [00:17:00] And just make, I, I just, I made a list the other day of like, who are, who are all the people that come to mind over the last couple years that have like added value to me?

I'm like, well, am I doing a good enough job keeping them up to speed? I know. It's just been a concept that I've been thinking about more. Do, do you write like a quarterly update for like investors and friends? Uh, to be honest with you, I haven't, and it's something that's been sitting in my crawl in like the back of my mind dude.

So do it for them too. But the other part that's just like, selfishly so fun for me, so I write this quarterly update that's, you know, nominally an investor update, but you know, investors are probably a third of the people that actually receive it. Right. It's also all of the friends and folks that I've, you know, had a couple coffees with along the way who are like, invested in the journey.

Yes. And, and it's just a great way to, you know, keep those loose ties engaged. I have, I have a great friend who says, you know, the best friends you have are your best friends. Mm-hmm. The next best friends are not your medium best friends. It's the loose ties. That you keep in touch with, you know, once, twice, three times a year over the course of years.

And then, you know, you run into each other randomly in an airport and have a great four hour conversation. Definitely. I'm like, [00:18:00] man, I love that. And so a great way to do that is these quarterly investor updates. 'cause like, you know, it's, it's then a nice thing, but then selfishly that most fun for me is getting to go back and see where we were a year, you know, 18 months ago and be like, oh my gosh.

Hmm. Like. It feels like you make this much progress every week, but then compounded over the course of, you know, a year, it's like, holy shit. That's what our app looked like a year ago. Yes. Like we we're flying. Yes. Like even, you know, you graciously gave me one of the early prototypes of Throne and you just showing me like the new design that you guys will launch with just seeing those, that progression over time, and then what the product is gonna turn into.

Totally screenshots, like put screenshots, videos, like, you know, I write all my investor updates and notions that I can embed stuff in them. Yes. You know, so it's a much more engaging letter, but then I can go back and like, you know, it's a nice little, uh, like time capsule of the journey. Yes. So what do you do?

You kind of just have like a Rolodex of all the people that you want to keep in the loop and then you have a certain format [00:19:00] for that letter. I'm imagining like business, personal, kind of check all those boxes. I don't even check personal, it's just business and like, I probably should add some more personal into it, but for the most part, the format is just like, you know, recap.

Like, here's what throne is, right? Mm-hmm. Like. Because again, I don't, I don't expect that people are, I live, eat and breathe my company, but I can't expect that of other people. So, you know, you know, here's Throne. We're a company building a monitoring device for gut health and urological function and hydration.

And then I go through, you know, key metrics, um, just like four or five bullets. You know, here's how many people are on the team, here's how much cash we have on the bank, here's what our runway is. And then it's, uh, I start with the problems, right? 'cause like these are the things that are top of mind for us, that they belong the top of my update to you.

Mm-hmm. Um, and just wanna get those outta the way. And then we move on to the fun stuff, right? Yes. Which is like, you know, here's the wins we've had in the last few months, uh, both on the product and engineering front and then on the business front. And then I close with like thank yous and asks. Mm. I love that.

It's, you actually just gave me [00:20:00] that, that helped remove the friction for me. 'cause I was, I think I was probably just putting too much pressure on myself for Noble, where I'm like, how in the weeds do we get? And it seems like this very basic flow works and it doesn't have to just be to investors. Yeah.

I'm, I'm gonna send you. I'll actually send you the one I'm writing right now for the end of March. Yes. But like it's all formatted, it's just bullets. Now I'm going through and like fleshing it out with like narrative, but like Yeah, just don't think too much about it. Just, yeah. Just do it. People, people are invested in you.

Yes. They want to follow your journey. I mean, you've probably gotten some amazing serendipity that was unintended just from having that list and sending those reports out. Right? A hundred percent. Yeah. Like, you know, folks ask to invest folks, folks you know, reach out. They're like, oh my God. Like, can I introduce you to like my gastroenterologist?

Like, you know, can I forward this to someone? Like by all means, please do. Yes. Alright. You ju I'm going to someone out in a march. And I'm gonna use your template and I'm gonna send it to you before I do it. That's a little accountability on the pod holding you to it. Look forward. That's, that's the best part about putting recording something and putting it on the record is then you have to live up to the what you say.

I [00:21:00] love that. Yes. So I'm very, I'm very, very excited to dig into Throne and tell our audience about what it is. And right. Before we do that, I just wanna bridge the gap from how you went from an engineering background to this entrepreneurial path. Alright, so my first job outta school was at a small startup here in town in the govtech space.

Um, that was a like classic if you're not growing, you're dying type situation. Mm-hmm. I did not know that going into it. I was there for six months long enough to realize like, oh, this is not. A long term thing, the most important kind of learning I had there was that there was this, you know, nebulous field called product management.

And, uh, that's probably what I should be doing because it seemed to me like product management is actually very similar to like what a mechanical engineer's role was. You know, as a mechanical engineer, you're doing a lot of the design work, but the actual implementation work is often left to like technicians in the field.

Right? Same thing with product management, where you're doing a lot of the product design work, you know, you're sourcing all the requirements from the business. You're working with designers to [00:22:00] like make the screens you're in, you know, set the product requirements for like, you know, how it's supposed, how users supposed to interact with it, and then you're working with the engineers to get it built, but you're not the one writing the code.

You're not the one like, you know, making the pixels look right. Um, you're more, you know. Corralling a group of people to build something. Yes. And that is just a perfect fit for my personality. Right. It really is. It really is. Like, you know, and you're not anyone's manager, you have no authority over these people.

It's just persuasion. Mm-hmm. And like, hey, like here's what I think we should be doing. Here's all my reasoning, why, let's go do it. And they either like agree with you or they don't. And you know, to be an effective product manager, you have to be pretty compelling. And, and at any rate, like I, I had some friends that were doing this and I was like, man, I gotta go do that.

And so I got hired as a product manager at Keller Williams, um, which is a big residential real estate company headquartered here in Austin. And got lucky to cut my teeth there, right as they were building basically their [00:23:00] entire like, tech suite in house. They were previously, uh, you know, licensing from 15 different vendors and paying, you know, hundreds of, not hundreds, tens of millions of dollars a year and software licensing fees.

And they just looked at that and they're like, well, you know, if we. Dedicate 5 million a year to building out a team and building us all out in house ourselves. Then we are masters of our own destiny from a software perspective. And we'll actually have software that, you know, is interoperable with each other and, you know, does what we explicitly want it to do.

Mm-hmm. Instead of like begging our vendors, Hey, can you please like, submit this feature change for us? Um, so I was hired at kw and like that was, it's not a sexy company, right. Like it's a, you know, residential real estate broker from like the eighties. Mm-hmm. That, uh, in hindsight was just like the most perfect place to learn product management because I got, I got to launch like 14 products in 12 months Wow.

To a user base of like 20,000 users from the moment we turn that product on. Mm-hmm. And then there's hundreds of thousands of real estate agents at [00:24:00] kw, but there's 20,000 that were just like super engaged in that new product development process and like. You don't get that at a startup. That was such a privilege.

So I just got a ton of reps in super quick. Um, and then I got poached to go over to another friend's company called Esper, which is a different gov tech company. So at that point I had product management experience and I had some Govtech experience and, you know, I knew how not to build Govtech. Um, and so I joined them as their first product manager, was there with them for about a year and then left to go start my own company.

And all of this was in ultimately in the service of getting to a point where I could start my own company, right? Mm-hmm. Like, and product manager is generally regarded as like a fast track to being a founder because again, you know, the, the same persuasive skills and, you know, organizing people around a concept to build things is fundamentally the job of a founder.

Mm-hmm. Um, and so I went off to go start my own company called Carbon Zero, which is a credit card to measure [00:25:00] and offset your carbon footprint. In hindsight, uh, that was a terrible idea. Um, people really like their credit card points and don't want to give up their rewards. And the idea for that company was, you know, instead of traditional rewards like points, miles or cash back, we would use that interchange to fund carbon offsets on your behalf.

Okay. And for a lot of reasons that ended up not working out. But I was able to soft land that company, um, sold that all my investors made like 20%, which you know better than losing their money. And I was able to pay myself back the salary that I hadn't made for the year and a half I was working on that company.

Um, and then from there I went to a different startup, Royal, which was, uh, crypto music company selling music royalties on the blockchain. Um, again, like strong theoretical underpinnings, just like, you know, when the rubber hit the road. I think it turns out like music royalties are just fundamentally not a consumer investible asset class.

Hmm. They look a lot like bonds, which are like, again, not like a retail investment instrument. Um, so. [00:26:00] Left Royal. Um, and, and by the way, just I got recruited to Royal by JD Ross and Justin Blouse, the founders, and their pitch to me was, come join Royal and we'll be your first investors when you go start your next company.

Which is like, it's very compelling pitch, impossible to say no to. Right. They were right. They were, yeah. To their infinite credit, they made good on that. Right. And they're just like, I love so much to your point about accountability, right? Like when you, you know, call your shot on the podcast and then you have to make good on that.

Yes. Because all your listeners are gonna hold you accountable to it. Like, I love so much when someone calls their shot and then sinks it eight ball corner pocket. Right? Like they did not like, yes, they had to do that because they told me they would, but like if they didn't, no one would ever found out.

Mm-hmm. Right. But like they did, and like, it still means the world to me. Like jd, Justin, if you're listening to this, like, thank you. Um, and so. That was an amazing chapter of my career too, because I was like licking my wounds from like, you know, a no one starts a startup hoping for like a base hit, [00:27:00] right?

And so like that was like, you know, just a lot to process there. Um, selling a company is always an exhausting, in particularly my situation. It was like, you know, we won't go into it here, but like I had a lot of learnings to take away from that and processing that. And so that was a very explicit stepping stone in my career.

Right? Like, I knew Royal was not gonna be the long term thing, and I knew it was a stepping stone into the next thing, but then I kind of had the license to search for like, what is that next thing while working on my current thing, which is like a gift that they gave me, right? Like I didn't have to hide that from yes, my managers.

Um, and so I recruited my now co-founder Tim, and this is where we're starting to get into Throne. So. Tim moved to Austin in 2021 from SF as part of the, you know, COVID diaspora. One of my best friends from college introduced us, was like, Scott, you know, give Tim a soft landing. So I brought Tim into our poker game, which is kinda our little covid bubble activity, right?

Like 10 guys sitting around a poker table every [00:28:00] week. And literally it was the first time we ever sat down at the poker table together. Uh, someone pitched the question, right? Like, what is, what are some startup ideas you'd love to start but wouldn't want your name associated with? Which is like a great question.

It's an incredible question. I, I forget who posed it, but, uh, I'll have to go back and ask. But everyone else is, you know, pitching sex, drugs and rock and roll, like vice industry stuff, right? Like the stuff you wouldn't want your name associated with. And Tim's like smart toilets. Like, I wanna make a toilet that like weighs how much my dump is.

Like, he's like, I've been talking about this since my buddies since college. Like, I think this is inevitable. Like, it crazy to me that this doesn't exist. And I was like, that's hilarious. Like clearly you would name that company Throne and put a leaderboard on it and your go to market is you sell it into frat houses and poker rooms like this.

Mm. Because like all the guys at the table thought that was hilarious. Yeah. And then that became like a running joke, uh, amongst me and Tim [00:29:00] for a couple years. I recruited him to Royal actually. So we treated that as like the dating before marriage as co-founders. Um, and then we left Royal originally to start a healthcare staffing marketplace similar to like Uber for nurses.

Uh, so we both come from healthcare families. My, both my parents are physicians, mom or my mom's a geriatrician. My dad's a medical device inventor and a cardiac anesthesiologist. Tim's mom is a nurse. His three sisters are nurses, or three of his sisters I should say. Um, and. At that time, you know, we were aware of like how the nurse, the acute nurse shortage through Covid, and we were like, let's go.

And like his sisters were all on these, you know, nurse staffing platforms and they hated 'em. They were, you know, they felt like we were really not being treated well. We were like, well, if we just go build a platform that treats, you know, the staff with dignity and respect, clearly that would be the winner.

Mm-hmm. Again, wrong for a lot of reasons, don't need to go into that here, but basically we realized within, you know, [00:30:00] six weeks of fundraising for that business that it was not gonna work. We're like, okay, you know, let's go back to the drawing board. At that point, one of our friends was like, Hey, have you guys ever thought about smart toilets?

We're like, dude, we've been, it's, that's thrown. Yeah. Like, yes, we've thought about smart toilets, but no, we haven't actually thought about this. Seriously. Right. You have the leaderboard picked out already. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But like, and like we have texts going back to like 2022, like joking about throne, but we hadn't ever taken it seriously until I called my mom and I was like.

Again, geriatrician, like old people, primary care physician. I was like, mom, is there any medical utility to looking at people's waist? And her answer was, honey. Like, yes. In fact, I've stopped giving my phone number to my patients because they send me so many pictures of their poop. Right? Like, that's a crazy answer.

And like it is when you actually unpack it, there's a lot of like learnings in that, right? Like number one, like this is a big enough problem that more than [00:31:00] one patient is doing this to my mom and like my mom. The other thing is like, my mom lives in Ruidoso New Mexico now. Mm-hmm. Right? Like that is like, you know, so far away from the Austin bubble of people that care about like gut health and are proactive about their health.

Right? Like th this is not. The, uh, the wellness warriors. These are just everyday Americans in the middle of the country. And so that's really interesting to me. The other part that was interesting is that my mom's not a poop expert. Right. She's like, she gets these pictures, she's like, like, you know, scheduled time to come, come to my office, but like, don't show me your poop.

Like, this is not helpful to me. Yeah. Um, but her patients are also clearly looking for health insights. Mm-hmm. Right? They, they intuit that there's health insights in their poop. They're sending it, that's why they're sending it to their doctor. Yes. Um, but my mom's not a gastroenterologist. She doesn't know.

She, she wants them to come in for a checkup. Mm-hmm. And so the other conversation that Tim and I had had around that time was just we had this awareness that there was a conversation around radiology being [00:32:00] one of the first medical professions to be, um, if not automated, then at least, you know, incredibly augmented with ai because computer vision is so good at.

Image analysis now. Right? And like you run an x-ray through an ai, it's gonna catch things that a radiologist might miss and there's no human error. Um, and you can just train it on these massive data sets. Mm. And, and pick up like very small minute details. And so if we could take that same principle and turn it into the toilet bowl and train an AI on, you know, not just poop, but also like urine and menstrual blood and like every human emission that goes into the toilet bowl, uh, that was an incredibly interesting opportunity to Tim and I, and so that's, you know, that's what brought us to what we're doing now.

That's incredible. I had never heard that that poker table story, that it was literally a joke concept that he had thrown out. And in the conversation with your mom, that was the connection point of, [00:33:00] Hey, this can go from being a joke or maybe some merit to it, to like, no, this is actually a link towards preventative medicine.

Totally. Uh, so the, the, the big thing we realized that the conversation with my mom. Was the first moment where we were like, wait, let's take this seriously. Let's actually do some homework. And like, this was before perplexity, right? Mm-hmm. Like we did six weeks of homework that now you could do with six hours with perplexity at the time or now.

But the, the homework we did was basically just trying to understand, right? Like what can you learn what biomarkers are in human waste, right? Like poop, urine, menstrual blood, what are the different conditions? Mapping onto those biomarkers? And there's a handful that are like huge, right? Like, you know, IBS inflammatory bowel diseases like Crohn's and ulcerative colitis is obviously, you know, um, and then you have like benign prostatic hyperplasia is non-cancerous enlargement of the prostate that affects 50% of men in their fifties.

And 80% of men by age 70. IBS by the way, is [00:34:00] 10% of men and 20% of women. Um, IBD is roughly 1% of the country. So these numbers right, you talk about like they're staggering. IBS, that's like anywhere between like 30 and 45 million Americans. IBD is roughly 3 million Americans, but nine percents, static hyperplasia is about 35 million Americans.

Chronic kidney disease is another roughly 35 million Americans. You have recurrent kidney stone formers. That's like, I, I think the number was 2% of Americans are expected to pass a kidney stone in the next 12 months. And 12% of Americans will pass a kidney stone at some point in their lives. Like one of the most painful things you can possibly experience.

Ill a brother pass a kidney stone like two years ago and he went to the hospital 'cause he thought he was dying. Yes. That's how painful it is. Have you? I have not. Okay. No. When you, you said that with some authority. No, I, my, uh, one, one of my, uh, coworkers wives just had one and he said it was brutal watching her go through that.

Oh yeah. No. Like my brother was like. Sweating like, yes. Like he thought, he like ruptured his appendix [00:35:00] rolling in Juujitsu and he was like, this is the end for me. Definitely. Yeah. It's wild. It's wild man. It's, um, yeah, I was doing some research before it sounds like to, to your statistic. It's close to like 3 million Americans that I think have IBD mm-hmm.

A much larger subset of that have IBSI think IBD alone is like an estimated like $15 billion in direct healthcare expenditures outside of the indirect things like loss of wages for being in the hospital, these out-of-pocket treatments that you're paying for these holistic modalities. And so before I'd ever met you and someone pitched the concept of throne as essentially the aura ringer whoop to your gut health.

Yeah. And it's a toilet. It's a, it's a camera that literally goes into your toilet that integrates to an app. My immediate thought process was. If I had had this in college, I would've never gotten ulcerative colitis. What type of like, and so that, that link clicked for me immediately. And obviously a lot, a lot of people that go through autoimmune or IBD, they view it in some ways kind of like a strange blessing in disguise because it forces you to go down these alternative modalities which develop [00:36:00] such great intuition.

And that's where those, those people that are sending pictures to, to your mom, they, they don't have like these things that we're instinctually able to do. Go to the bowel normally, eat, eat regular foods, manage our weight that all other animals can do that we can't do. You know, we, we, we kind of have a sense that something is off, but we don't have that strong intuition, um, that a lot of people that go down these alternative paths do have.

I don't know that it's, that we can't do it. I just think that we don't do it right. We don't do it. I, I, I think because to your point, you know, this stuff is highly intuitive, right? Like, you know, I love talking about the history of like looking at poop because. It goes back to like literally Hippocrates, right?

The, the, the founder, the father of Western Medicine, you know, famously wrote, all disease begins in the gut. And I don't think that's true, but spiritually, like I appreciate where he is coming from. Mm-hmm. And like a lot of Hippocrates, his writing was about like visual inspection of stool looking for diseases.

Um, [00:37:00] and then in other cultures, right, like Chinese medicine, traditional Chinese medicine places heavy emphasis on like stool observation. Ayurveda places heavy emphasis on stool observation. It's like one of the key pillars of, you know, Ayurvedic medicine. Um, and then like historically, like off on a tangent here, but like this, no, it's great.

History is like so fun to me. So King Henry, the King Henrys the seventh and eighth in England had a member of the royal court named the groom of the stool, whose job was to inspect the king's poop and then liaise with the royal doctor about the king's health. Wow. That's unbelievable. Yeah, it's like, it's like that was actually a highly coveted like position in the Royal court.

'cause you got a lot of one-on-one time with the king. That's what, what's that? What was that role called? What was the G type? The groom of the stool. The groom of the stool. Yeah. And then the kind of the modern equivalent of that, that's just so fun to me, is Kim Jong-un infamously travels the world with [00:38:00] his own toilet everywhere he goes if he's outside of North Korea, because he does not want his waste to fall into enemy hands because there's health information in that.

And you know, the Supreme leader does not want, you know, his health information to fall into the wrong hands, so to speak. And, you know, nor North Korean defectors have confirmed this. Yes. And so when I think about what we're doing at Throne, it's, we we're trying to help shine a spotlight on those things that, you know, used to be intuitive to us as a species that I think now, particularly in the West and particularly, you know, in the, you know, American, you know.

The America of the West, where we have these like kind of, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? You know, puritanical beliefs around, you know, the stool, right? Like it's, people don't talk about poop in the United States No. Like they do in other cultures, right? Like I've got friends from India who are like, oh yeah, like people talk about poop like casually.

Mm-hmm. Like, you know, you in Germany and [00:39:00] you know, parts of Europe, the toilets are shaped differently to make it easier to look at. Definitely. Um, you know, obviously, you know Asia like, you know, Korea and Japan like, you know, notorious for having the best toilets in the world. And like, it's, it's just a much different culture around the conversation around poop.

Yes. And so I think it's just not intuitive to us, but that doesn't mean it's not intuitive to us as a species. And so we're just trying to help in some ways make those conversations a more accessible and then b, arm you with objective data to go have conversations with your healthcare providers and to be able to show you when something is not normal.

'cause a lot of people. If they're not talking about this with others, they don't know what normal looks like. Definitely. That, that, that's why I wanted to share my story in the beginning to, to to begin with. Just because these things like ulcerative colitis, you know, I'm publicly sharing with the world that I was shitting blood 30 times a day.

Right. People don't wanna, you don't wanna say that out loud. That's what's, that's why I think so many young men get it is like you start having these flare up symptoms, [00:40:00] it's embarrassing. You don't bring it up. And then by the time you actually go to your doctor, you have full blown uc with ulcers all over you.

That that was the, that was the example of me. And I've noticed so many of my friends that don't have, like, full on IBD, they'll come to me because they're having irregularities, but they know that they have a, a safe space that they could talk to. So that just kind of like reinforces your point of we need to be talking about these things.

And throughout history we have talked about this and we've just chosen to kind of brush it under the rug to our detriment. 'cause like you said, the gut health is so important and it almost seems like our, our modern. Understanding at scale is like we understand the gut equivalent to the way that we might understand space.

Like there's so much more to learn and so much that we don't understand that we should totally agree, right? Like, this is one of the things that, that statement, we understand the gut, like we do space completely accurate. Like there are like hundreds of millions of different microbes in your gut that have some effect on your gut.

[00:41:00] And I think the, the current state of, you know, humans, scientific understanding of the role those microbes individually play in your gut is so nascent. And like there are like, you know, five. Different biomarkers that I think we can objectively say, you know, we understand well. Right. So it's, it's the inflammatory markers like calprotectin, lactoferrin, uh, you know, especially someone with uc.

Mm-hmm. Like that's the number one thing they look for when they take a stool sample in patients with IBD is particularly calprotectin. Um, and there are, you know, a couple microbes like c difficile or e coli that, you know, if you have an overgrowth of those, that's objectively a bad thing. Mm-hmm. Um, and then with like, I'd say a lesser degree of certainty, we can say that, you know, bugs like akkermansia are good, but then beyond that, you know, I, I, I think one of my gripes with a lot of the existing kind of microbiome testing tools, you know, I've tried a couple of these microbiome tests where you submit a stool sample and send it off to a lab, and then they send you back, um, you know, your results.[00:42:00]

One is like, we as humans just, we love linear relationships. Right. Like more of this is good, less of that is bad or whatever. It's, I don't think that's how. The gut microbiome works, right? The, the gut microbiome is, you know, outside of a handful of like known examples, is by and large a like multifactorial compensatory system where like, just because you don't have like good microbes, A, B, and C doesn't mean you're not compensating for that by having, you know, some other combination of microbes, you know, IJ and K.

Mm-hmm. Um, so at any rate it's, it's all the wild, wild west. And so the, the thing we're saying is we are not looking at your gut microbiome. People always ask, you know, like, is this gonna test my microbiome? I'm like, no. Throne is not looking at your microbiome. Throne is looking at your stool consistency, your stool frequency, um, you know, presence of blood or mucus.

Um. And then we're also looking at like strain, like, you know, how long you're sitting on the toilet [00:43:00] and like the distribution of evacuation events. Like, and again, this is gross, but like, this is the conversation that we're trying to like, help people have and just recognize like, it doesn't, it's not gross, it's human.

Mm-hmm. But like, you know, if you sit there and you have a healthy bowel movement and then you sit on your phone for another 20 minutes, you're probably just like scrolling Reddit. You know, Twitter avoiding work. If you sit there and you have your first movement after five minutes, and then your next one's seven minutes later, like that is probably a sign of severe strain and constipation and or like partial evacuation.

Um, and it's like that's data that no one has today. And like. The GIS we talked to were stoked about getting this data. Yeah, and I mean, my, my process was so manual, right when I connected with, um, with Dane Johnson, who I know you've met before. Amazing guy that runs, um, Crohn's Colitis lifestyle. He's probably one of the best, if not the best, holistic uc, Crohn's healthcare or coaches that actually exist and teaches you that preventative model and to develop intuition.

He was the one that told me to actually keep a, a food [00:44:00] journal and also a log of the amount of bowel movements that I was having in a notebook. And so I was, I was really diligent with it, but I would definitely miss sometimes too. So just that simplicity of like. Having that, that device on the toilet, so you don't even have to think about it and you actually have the most accurate data, is super refreshing.

And, and it's, it encourages me to think about other people that might have IBS or IBD or might end up going on to develop it. The what the, the positive ramifications could be. And I also love your approach around simplicity is actually better when it comes to gut health. And I think that's the direction that I hope we take in regards to health and wellness in general.

'cause there's been such a, almost like oversaturation of inputs, um, within the last two years. And a lot of that comes from a really good place. But what I find is that the average person that's trying to just optimize these things and not overcomplicate, they don't really know where to start because they're getting so much, um, opinionated nuance and someone saying this thing and the other person's saying one thing, they don't even know how to get started.

So friction got health. TikTok is chaos. Is it? Oh [00:45:00] yeah. I can't even imagine. Yeah. I mean, ask 10 different people for, you know, gut health tips. You'll get 11 different tips, right? Yes, yes. Um. I did not realize though, that you had done the paper stool log and food log. So that's like, I talk about that a lot.

Mm-hmm. In terms of, how long did you do that for? I did that for probably six months, I would say. And, and what was your primary takeaway from doing that exercise? I found that, for me in particular, 'cause I was still in somewhat of a mini flareup stage. Mm-hmm. And I still get like this, this too, I, my worst flareup was 2016.

I've probably had, I've been off biologic drugs since 2022 and I've probably had three mini flareups where I was gonna the bathroom like eight to 10 times a day with some blood in the stool. I've had that like three times over the last, since 2016. Um, nothing super, super major, but almost all of my bowel movements would come in the morning where it would be like almost every 20 to 30 minutes.

And then I would taper off into the afternoon at night and sometimes I wouldn't even go to the bathroom at all after like one o'clock in the afternoon. [00:46:00] So I was just, I don't know what that means, but I. I started playing around with inputs where I was like, well, what if I stop eating earlier in the day?

Sleep? Like I was able to play around with those variables, but you're, I'm immediately thinking how much easier this whole process would be. So, that's exactly right. What you're describing to me is you're running these experiments, right? Mm-hmm. And like such a believer, what gets measured, gets managed.

Yes. And like the fact that measuring it meant that you were able to like, okay, if I tweak this and keep track of that, like, you know, now I have the objective data week over week. Right. Did that small change, like in my diet, in my, you know, eating patterns when I eat these foods when I go to sleep, like, did that have an impact on my gut health?

Mm-hmm. Like, you can go back and see the objective results, yes or no? Like, so, so that exercise that you went through is something we hear dieticians and nutritionists do with their clients all the time, and it's always on paper. And the diet, the, the big one they'll do it for is looking for dietary triggers, sensitivities and intolerances, right?

Mm-hmm. So like, and those are distinct from allergies because allergies, uh, you know, are, [00:47:00] um. Autoimmune in nature, whereas dietary trigger sensitivities and intolerances are more enzymatic. And so it's like stuff you can't test in your blood for. And it really is just like, you know, did this react well in my gut and you know, did I have a healthy bowel movement efforts or did I, you know, have what's called like a Bristol five, six or seven like looser liquid stool mm-hmm.

Caused by this. And so that process of like having to write that stuff down, like incredibly painful people, painful. I mean it just takes time. Um, the other thing is like people, even people who have a chronic disease whose life would be like measurably improved by going through the exercise you did, a lot of people don't have the discipline to do that.

They just don't. A hundred percent. And so that is a opportunity for us to improve with technology 'cause, right. Like look, and the other thing is people are looking for these sensitivity and intolerances just manually eyeballing, right? Like, okay, well I. You know, you wrote down that you ate, you know, you know, gluten at this hour and like six hours later [00:48:00] you had, you know, like loose stools.

Like maybe we, let's try cutting gluten. That's something that could obviously be improved with like basic linear regressions and, you know, like tools. Mm-hmm. Right? And so that's one of the things we're excited, most excited about is we recognize that like we don't, from a gut health perspective, we don't care what you ate if you have a healthy gut, right?

Mm-hmm. Like, and now obviously if you're trying to lose weight and track calories or, you know, like gain weight and your macros matter, but like, if you're just looking to optimize your gut health, the thing that matters is the food that caused a trigger or like a, you know, a partial flare. Um, and, and, you know, led to an unhealthy bowel movement.

And we recognize like we have the. A captive audience when you're on the toilet. Yes. And you're having that, you know, looser liquid stool. We can send you a push notification and be like, Hey, you know, looks like you're having a bad time. What'd you eat in the last 18 hours? Yeah. And just log all the things you ate.

Just describe it to us, right? Mm-hmm. [00:49:00] AI's so magical Now for food tracking, like I used to count my calories and I in college with MyFitnessPal and it was miserable. It's so miserable. It sucks. Now, I did it last year for three months. I logged every calorie I ate for three months using levels. And it's so much easier now.

'cause you just described me, you know, I just had whatever, like, you know, two pancakes and a latte, whatever it is, right? Yeah. But, and then boom, like done in two seconds instead of like two minutes of searching through Bullshit. Point is like. N we have a captive audience. When you're on the toilet, you're there with your phone.

We know you're having a bad time. We can ask you, Hey, what did you do that might have led to this? You're highly motivated to like get that down and then we can start building up that data set and say, okay, it looks like 80% of the time when you have, you know, a looser liquid school, it's because you drink caffeine in the previous six hours, or you know, eight ginseng or whatever the ingredient is, right?

But like we can start to give you a really data-driven triangulation on how your gut responds to different ingredients. But like [00:50:00] outside of having the discipline to do this paper journal, like no one has, and also no one's going through that paper journal more than 90 days at a time. Definitely, right?

Like you're looking at like a week at a time max. Just because that's the most context you can keep in your head. Whereas like when we have data we can give you like, okay, here's what your gut has responded to over the last 90 days, 180 days last year. Like, I'm so excited for that feature. Oh my gosh, I'm, I'm so excited for it too.

It just takes any of these like variables or it just takes, it removes the friction. It takes all of that stuff off the table. Like I just, I can't wait until, you know, you're getting patients that might have like early onset IBD, maybe it's IBS, but they have that, that, um, that internal drive to buy a throne to potentially prevent it, and they're able to take that data and incorporate the right changes and then they don't end up having IBD or, you know, guys that have, that have had, you know, colitis or Crohn's for years that, that ends up, uh, metastasizing into colon cancer.

Like so much of colon cancer, like you've taught me, is it's preventable in the early stages. [00:51:00] And it's like things like thrown that are gonna prevent that. So, so I don't wanna make the claim that will prevent anything. Yeah. Right. Yes. Like we are very much not a medical device, we're a health and wellness device, but the, I will say the mission of the company longer term, right?

We're not there today, but like the colon cancer thing, glad you brought that up. Like so. Kind of the morphology of colon cancer is that it typically starts as a, what's called like a carcinoma. It's a little polyp, you know, in your colon that grows and grows and grows. And that polyp becomes a malignant tumor anywhere between on average, like 10 to 15 years later.

And so it means you have a long time to find it, right? And if you get a colonoscopy in that 10 to 15 years in that window, and the colonoscopist or gastroenterologist finds that polyp, they can just like lasso it out and like, boom. Like, you know, no more cancer risk. Like, you know, they'll tell you, come back for another colonoscopy at that point for a screening colonoscopy, you know, they might up your, uh, cadence of getting colonoscopies, but, uh, you're pretty safe.

The, the [00:52:00] real risk is that, you know, it goes that 10 to 15 years undetected and then, you know, transforms into a malignant tumor that then grows much more aggressively. Mm. And. The thing that I'm most excited about, you know, the, the, you know, the five year vision for the company, the mission that I'm on is I wanna build the smoke detector for colon cancer because I wanna look for trace amounts of fecal occult blood.

That's, that's blood that's in the stool, that's invisible to the naked eye. Uh, but it in, it gets there because as stool goes through the colon and brushes past that polyp, it rubs it raw. And that polyp will start, you know, like a little scrape on your arm, right? That'll just like little tiny amounts of blood end up in the stool.

And if we can use, you know, advanced sensing technologies to detect those trace amounts of fecal coat blood with high sensitivity and specificity, we don't need to say you have colon cancer, right? Like, there's a lot of things that can cause blood in your stool from, you know, ulcers to, you know, fissures and fistulas and hemorrhoids.

The scariest is [00:53:00] colon cancer and. All we need to say is, Hey, you have a pattern of co like blood in your stool. You should go show this to a doctor. Mm-hmm. And any doctor who sees a pattern of blood in your stool, like will either ask you to take a Cologuard test. And so, you know, I sees as like the first line of defense.

Then you take, you know, the Cologuard test, which is actually looking at like, you know, the DNA in your stool, or they'll just send you straight into a colonoscopy. And like, if we save one life, who otherwise would not have gotten a colonoscopy, they can say, and they can say, in good faith, my toilet saved my life game over.

Like, that is the reason I was put on this planet. Yes. Like, I am so pumped for that moment. Mm. I mean, what better motivation do you need as a founder? Like that, that goal man picking, picking a mission that's that important. It's so meaningful. Mm-hmm. And like, and the thing is like now since I've made this, my mission, I've met, I.

Dozens of people who lost their parents to colon cancer, [00:54:00] too young in age, lost siblings who themselves had colon cancer. Like the, the stories we hear, the, the other pa part of this also that's like crazy to me is the importance of the colorblindness. Mm. Like I, I think it's like roughly 12% of men are colorblind.

Interesting. It's either eight, 8% or 12%. It's like a shockingly large percent of male population is colorblind. And the most common form of colorblindness, uh, is the inability to distinguish between red and green, but like tangential to that is harder to detect blood, you know, reds and browns. Oh, wow. And so twice now I've heard stories.

One guy had, uh, a form of ulcerative colitis called pan colitis, which is like the most severe form. So, you know, typically ulcerative colitis is restricted to the eight to 10 centimeters of the colon, just above the rectum. Uh, pan colitis is like the whole colon's on fire. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, the ascending transverse, indecent and colon.

And he didn't discover that he had ulcerative colitis until he had like, you know, [00:55:00] gone poop one night. Didn't flush 'cause he didn't wanna wake up. His wife and his wife woke up the next morning, was like, holy shit. Like this is a war zone. What's going on? He's like, literally I looked in the toilet. I could not see what she's seeing.

It was just blood. Wow. Yeah. He just thought he'd had diarrhea, like, you know, bad food. Same thing. And no. Another guy reached out and told me identical story. Right. Like, didn't flush, didn't wanna wake up his wife. I. And he was 29 years old, like, and he was like, look like my wife, same thing. Woke up the next morning, found this, and I went to the doctor and turns out I'd had like, you know, stage three colon cancer and I got it removed surgically and like now I'm in remission.

I'm good. But like, if I was not married, I'd be dead. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's unbeliev. I didn't, I did not know that that high of a percentage of men are colorblind and can't differentiate between the reds and the browns. Yeah. So like for that stuff, like the visible blood, we don't even need like advanced sensing technology.

Mm-hmm. Just a straight up camera can do that. Yes. And like, that's amazing to me. Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's, so there's, there's almost different layers to what you just said where it's like, there's, there's the colorblindness thing and [00:56:00] then it almost highlights a bigger picture issue, which we've been talking about, which is like.

Either way. If you have a pattern of going to the bathroom like that, whether you can see the color or not in your stool, that's how your stool looks. There's some other levers that we need to be pulling here. There's levers you're pulling that are not right, because that should not be how you're gonna the bathroom.

Totally. I mean, this, this came up, I was on a bachelor party for my sister's fiance a few weeks ago, and he's a few years younger than me. You know, in law school. All his buddies are, you know, 24, 25, like either, you know, in their graduate degrees or you know, first job outta school, and they're all in a frat together.

And like, you know, they found out I was working on throne. And like, as you can imagine, it's a very popular topic of conversation with like a big group of frat boys. But like, one of the things they talked about is like, oh man, like, you know, I'll be shitting liquid, like, you know, at least three, four times a week.

Like, that's like just. Base case, their reality, and like, again, it goes back to the conversation we had earlier. Like people don't know what normal is. Mm-hmm. Like to [00:57:00] be able to show them like, hey, that frequency of this consistency is like objectively unhealthy. Like that's a dietary problem. But like, if you're living your life like that, right?

And it's just you, you are eating ultra processed foods, which, you know, most of us are, most of the time, like 60% of American calories are ultra processed. And so that diet leading to a highly dysregulated gastrointestinal system, which you become desensitized to, right. The frog in the boiling pot of water.

Like shit, dude, like I, I ate four eggo waffles drowned in an jemima's maple syrup every morning for the first 18 years of my life. And both my parents are doctors. Yes. Right? Like it's pervasive. Like my point is like, if that's what your normal is and your colorblind. It's a perfect storm. Mm. The perfect storm.

And there's a lot of people that fall into that camp. Yeah. So it's a, it's, it's very sim what you guys are doing is very similar [00:58:00] to, you know, why you're wearing a whoop and why I'm wearing an Apple watch is it's like, I wear these things because I like to, this, this watch forces me to actually develop intuition through the data.

And I think if you're living your life where you know, you need a whoop 24 7 or an AA ring, and your sleep score sucks, and that throws your entire day off, like not being that crazy and religious with it, but like using these things for a purpose to develop that intuition. And the, and I would imagine the goal of Throne is to get to a point where there, where these, these users are saying, okay, I ate this and did this yesterday.

My bowel movement is not normal. Now let me course correct and learn how to do that on their own. Yeah, that's exactly right. Like the, the kinda the downside case that you're describing, you know, the, the people that are obsessed with it. Mm-hmm. Um, there's a term Ortho Somnia, um. In sleep. Right. Which is like, you're, you're so obsessed with your sleep score, the quality of your sleep Yes.

That it actually sabotages your ability to sleep. Mm-hmm. And like that principle is [00:59:00] exactly what we want to avoid. Definitely. Like, we do not want people to be obsessing with their hydration or gut health score to the point where it actually undermines their health. We just want to give people a window into their body that they otherwise would not have.

Mm-hmm. And so, and, and again, just give people the opportunity to run those experiments like you ran on yourself to find what works for you because everyone's body works so differently. Definitely. That's why I love what you said too about, um. You're essentially like if your bowel movements are good, I don't care what you're eating.

Yeah. And that's kind of the way that, I don't wanna say we've changed, but maybe just evolved over time where carnivore worked really well for me. And there's also a lot of other modalities that have worked for a lot of people too, like this rigidity around food groups and people that are eating meat and fruit, fighting with meat-based people and Mediterranean diets.

People like there, there's so many people that have had success on those things and I love what you just said where it's figure out the combination of those things that works the best for you. And then we have the data to actually calibrate whether it's working or not. Totally. The so, so the kind of, the feature we were just [01:00:00] talking about, right?

Where you're running these N one experiments, the the one step ahead of that that I wanna build, and again, this is not launching in 2025, but like. Once we have, you know, thousands of users using throne tracking the things that are working for them. Mm-hmm. Then what I'm most excited about is we able to say, okay, for other people who look like you, who had a similar diet and digestive pattern, what are the interventions that actually work for them?

Right? Like was it a adding probiotics? Was it adding magnesium before bed? Was it cutting certain foods? Like whatever those things are, like, we're impartial, but like, you know, because so many people's gut health journey is just throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks and they get discouraged if they try five or six things and it nothing works for them.

And I think we'll have really meaningful data to be able to say, okay, like based on your personal digestive system and your patterns, here's what we think will work for you based on other people who had similar patterns. And let's, you know, we have 80% [01:01:00] confidence in this and 70% confidence in this. And then let's just stack me in, corti those for you.

And like, you know, you run down the list and run these experiments one at a time. And you know, best case scenario is we find something that works for you and like you found relief and like these changes in your diet and lifestyle meaningfully improve your quality of life. Best case scenario, worst case scenario is you've tried things that didn't work for you and you're no worse off than you were before.

And now you know, five things that didn't work. Wow. The dude, that's unbelievable to think about. Like even if I was using it, I remember when I was in the middle of a mini flare up, I had had one of my buddies who's a doctor in New Jersey, Dr. Curin Ek, who's been on the podcast. Um, he has Crohn's and just has such a, just has a, a supplement and regimen for everything.

So he, when I was in the mini flare, he was like, you have to get on BP oral BPC 1 57 and then you need to take this herb called Ching d, which I had never heard of before. Literally within, it was close. It was like four to five days of taking those things. I, all the blood in my [01:02:00] stool went away. And so.

Again, I would love imagine if that data, you had that data and were able to recommend some of those modalities to people. That's exactly what we're trying to do. Right. Like you were lucky to have a friend. A hundred percent. Who again, like has IBD Yes. You have IBD. Right. Like similar diet and digestive patterns.

And they were able to make that recommendation for you. A lot of people. Yeah. I mean, you have the, you know, the gift of talking about your disease openly. Mm-hmm. A lot of people don't have that. No. And so, yeah, that's, thank you for sharing. I love that story. Story. Definitely, man. Al, also, one thing I wanted to ask you about, going back to the, the kind of the journey of your disease.

You, you mentioned, you know, you found yourself, how old were you? I was, uh, 20. I just turned 21. So it was going into my senior year when I got diagnosed. How long from onset of symptoms to diagnosis, what did that path look like and how long did that take for you? That's a good question. I would say that's [01:03:00] such an interesting question.

So it was the summer when I got diagnosed with full blown uc. That was the summer of 2016. So I got diagnosed in August, and then the previous fall, um, before I transferred to Babson, I was at a different school called Seton Hall. That was when, that, the fall of 2015 is when I first started having blood on my stool.

I probably had it for a couple months and then pushed it off to where eventually, I forget who I told, and they were like, you have to find a doctor now. And then I got diagnosed with, I think it was proctitis. And then I just took like some suppositories for that. It went away on its own. And then that, so the, the, I was interning in New York City at a IG and then I noticed in early June, the train rides were getting more uncomfortable because I was having to use the bathroom.

And then, so it was like it started early, went away, and then came back that summer. And then by the end of the summer it was like 20 to 30 times a day. Wow. And. Going back. So fall [01:04:00] 2015, you have the first onset of symptoms. Mm-hmm. And at Seton. Seton Hall. Yeah. And how long was it from that to your first conversation with the doctor that diagnosed you with proctitis?

That's a great question. It was probably two months, I would say. Yeah. That's exactly the type of thing that like, yes, I would love, again, we don't wanna be making diagnoses. Mm-hmm. But we do just wanna be able to throw up a red flag and say, Hey, this is abnormal. Let's get you into a proper, you know, medical consult sooner rather than later.

This is something that, you know, Peter Attia talks a lot about with a Healthcare 3.0. Definitely. Model is, you know, we wait as Americans until we are symptomatic. And by the time you're symptomatic, it's often too late to. Meaningfully change course. 100%. Yeah. Like now I have the measures in place where obviously if I notice any blood in my stool, my, my alarm bells are off.

And that's when I have my resources where I'm like, all right, I will go back to a pure red meat, bone broth and water diet. I'll cut these things out. I'll sleep really well. [01:05:00] I, I'm gonna work really hard to minimize stress. Like, I have those guardrails that I can kind of put in place, and then if that doesn't work, I'm like, okay, if this is still going on after two weeks, then that's when I'll, you know, seek out a GI or something like that.

Yep. But again, it's like why I got sick in the first place is my alarm bells weren't going off, which is so crazy. It's like, dude, you're, you have blood in your stool. Go get that checked out if it's, if it's persisting over a long period of time. I mean, this is, you know, the old joke is like, guys will wait until the rectum falls out.

No. Literally. Yeah. Yeah. Um, that's so exciting, man. I know too. A, a cool story for you is obviously we were texting this whole time. I know you, you had this incredibly like, just intense period of fundraising that was super successful. And the cool thing about that was you were using Throne right? During the fundraising process.

Yes. And so like, what, what made me think of it was, I know for myself, typically whenever I get a mini flare up, it's a high period of stress as well. And when I got sick, I was extremely stressed out. And so it was interesting for you to tell me off record, [01:06:00] just your mindset fundraising and what that was doing to your gut health versus when the raise was closed.

And I'd love for you to talk about that. Absolutely. So, okay, two things here. The first is, uh, I had to, you know, part ways with somebody on our team last May. Mm-hmm. That was so deeply stressful, right? Like I, it's like one of the worst parts of Yeah. The entrepreneurial journey is those moments and that day my, again, like in my baseline is like generally incredibly healthy gut.

I'm just blessed to have, you know, trains in Japan. And that day I. Woke up constipated, had a healthy bowel movement, and then shit liquid at the end of the day. Mm. They're like, that's a full, like across the full spectrum. Like that's never happened to me. And like that was just my body's response to stress.

And it was like crazy to me to like see, like, you know, my, I was wearing the aura ring and the aura was like, you know, you spent five hours in the most stressful zone that you could possibly [01:07:00] spend on the daytime stress graph. At the same time I had this like, you know, throne data showing me like, wow, like my gut is really outta whack right now.

And so that was my first time seeing the overlay of my gut health and my stress and making that connection in that way. And then I started fundraising in October and closed the round Christmas Eve. And if you go back and look at my, what we call digestive pattern, which is just like a, a, a graph of hard, healthy, loosened liquid bowel movements like.

I went from just like straight healthy to just like healthy, constipated, liquid constipated, healthy constipated and like, you know, skip days. And like, it was like, it's just wild. And then as soon as I, I closed the round, I got super sick, right? Like the body keeps score and like my, my central nervous system was like, ah, like deep sigh of relief.

We got through this, now we're gonna, you know, shut down and it's time for you to get really sick for two weeks. And then [01:08:00] once I recovered from that, you know, back to normal and it's just like, yeah. And like it's, it's so fun to like, use my own product and go and learn these things about my own physiology, right?

Yes. Like, you know, we talk a lot about the, the mind gut access. And like for me, I know. Without a shadow of a doubt that the arrow from my mind to my gut is way bigger than my gut to my mind. Right. Like when I'm not feeling great, I'm not depressed, but when I'm stressed, my gut is in knots. Mm-hmm. And you did another experiment too.

I, we weren't quite as close at this time. We had met before and it gotten that coffee. But seeing you from afar do a 30 day challenge of pure ultra processed food, I was like, I am a, I can't wait to see what this looks like. It's almost like you did your own version of supersize me. Can you tell the audience a little bit about that?

Yeah. Because that was fascinating. So that was, it inspired exactly by what we were just talking about with the, the mind gut axis. I was curious, right, like, if I [01:09:00] do a 30 day challenge to intentionally throw my gut out of whack, what will that do to my mind? And so the way I structured the experiment was I.

It, it was inspired somewhat by supersize me, but instead of just eating, you know, infinite junk food, it was what happens if I eat the same amount of food, right? Like 3000 calories a day, continue to exercise, you know, continue to sleep seven hours a night. Um, but just change the nutritional value of my meals alone, right?

So instead of eating like my typical like day is like, you know, eggs, salmon, you know, Greek yogurt, like healthy stuff. If I switched from the normal healthy whole foods to only ultra processed foods, 100% of my calories for 30 days, what would happen to my body and my like, mental physiological state? And the results were like wild.

So I, I tracked, obviously, I wore my whoop. I wore an OAR ring. I used throne. I did DEXA scans before and after. I did blood [01:10:00] work through function before and after. I did microbiome tests through tiny health before and after looking not only at the microbiome, but also inflammatory markers. Um, I weighed myself every single morning and every single evening, four times a day, I would check, uh, like just self-report, my mood, energy, focus and stress.

Like it was like an hour of data collection every single day on top of like shooting like a little like selfie video, like describing like what I'd eaten that day and how I was feeling. It was an undertaking. And the biggest lessons were number one. Uh, I went from having no inflammatory markers in my gut to having inflammatory markers in my gut, my bowel movements.

Only changed when I ate like really crazy stuff. So like one day I ate, uh, Krispy Kreme donuts for 3000 calories and just shit liquid for due days. Yeah. Um, the other one was, uh, spicy Food Day, which is the closest I've ever come to shitting myself. Like there's this concept called urgency, right? Mm-hmm.

Which is like, like how, like exactly what you're describing Yes. Feeling on the trains, right. Where it's like, [01:11:00] this is getting in the way of my ability to live my day-to-day life. Yes. Like I was on one of those walks that I love going on and just like stopped my buddy. I was like, dude, I've got about a hundred yards in me.

And fortunately like was able to find a, a hotel, but like, thank God. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, just, you know, wild how just changing my diet, like it just went through me like that. Um, the other big learnings, this is the most crazy to me, was eating ultra processed food for 30 days. Drop my testosterone 30%. My free tea dropped 25%.

My total tea dropped 30%. I went from having 0.2 pounds of visceral adipose tissue, which is like the, the unhealthy fat that lives in your gut. And from 0.2 pounds to 1.12 pounds. So a five and a half X increase over 30 days, despite the fact that I'd lost fat on net, I, I weighed slightly less at the end of the 30 days than I was going into it.

My, but like all my fat just like left my extremities and went into my gut. Mm-hmm. Like the [01:12:00] craziest results. So, you know, what was your mood like? That was the other one that big took a big hit. Uh, so my mood in my energy in particular took a huge hit. My mood took a hit, um, and my stress was like, kind of up and down, but that's just startup life.

Um, the most interesting one was I had a colleague sitting across from my desk from me who, uh, secretly kept a journal of her. Read on my mood and at first, you know, the first few entries are like, you know, he's chipper, he's great, like, you know, sunshine and rainbows. By the end, she's like, he came in the room radiating bad energy.

Like he is hating life right now. And like, that's especially bad because one of the things I recognize is like, you know, leading a startup, like trying to make a new thing in the world. Like if you show up with negative energy too many days in a row, game over. Like, I don't think we, yeah. Sorry, go on after you.

I was, all I was [01:13:00] gonna say was we don't put nearly enough emphasis on as a founder, like your energy output, how important that actually is. A hundred percent. People want to want to work or people have to want to work with you. Yes. Right. Like if I'm a like, impatient short fuse, like temper tantrum, prick, like.

That's gonna kill me. Hmm. And the company. Yes. So there's the decrease in testosterone, the increases in adipose tissue, and then there are these other things that are equally, if not potentially more important, like your overall energy. That's a result of all those things. And I love the fact that you kept all the other variables the same except for just the foods that you were eating.

So like it was about as true of an ex as an experiment you could get. Probably the only way you could get it better is if you're able to do it when you, when you using a throne, which would be awesome to see. I did use, oh, you actually did use Throne. Okay, cool. Use. The other thing I also didn't mention was a continuous glucose monitor through levels.

And that was also crazy to see because like my A1C hardly changed at all, but, [01:14:00] so the big learning there was like there's value in continuous monitoring. Yes. Because the A1C is just looking at the average of your, you know, past 90 days like glucose, whereas like using the CGM and seeing the spikes in my glucose mm-hmm.

Minute by minute I learned like my mood was at its best when my mood was, when my glucose was spiking. And at its worst, when it was falling, it wa it wasn't the level that mattered, it was the rate of change. Yes. And when my glucose is spiking, I feel invincible. And when my glucose is crashing, I am like, just intrusive thoughts.

Like, how many times can I roll my car at 90 miles an hour? A hundred percent. I would imagine that there, certain people would see that experiment and immediately just try and justify it and be like, dude, of course, you know, those things are gonna happen. You're eating a hundred percent of ultra processed foods.

But then the statistics are that 63% of all calories consumed in the US are in the form of ultra processed foods. So that means that the average American over half their meals is coming from ultra processed foods, which means there's people that are probably eating almost all of their [01:15:00] calories from ultra processed foods.

Absolutely, yes. So it matters. Yeah, no, I mean that's, and the reality is like they're foods, right? Like they're, they're intended to be eaten. Yes. Like. And there, to your point, like there are people who subsist exclusively on these things, or the majority of their diet is these things they don't realize because again, frog in the boiling pot of water, right?

Like, if you don't have a healthy baseline, you don't know what normal is. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, you're used to eating Oreos for dinner and like Yes. It's, it's calories, right? Like it's fuel. You're, you're able to live, but it's certainly not your best life. Yes. That's why I love what you guys are, your, your ethos at Thrown.

And what we're trying to do with our show and with Noble is this paradigm shift of, we're not saying that. Nutrition and health and wellness is your God. It's more of just this base layer. So you can get to that energy [01:16:00] management piece that we were talking about. Like if you're eating, you know, salmon and Greek yogurt and single ingredient real foods and you, you know, you still make space to enjoy life and have a beer and a pizza every once in a while.

Um, but you're consistently filling that base line with the right things. You're just gonna be shocked at the person that you can turn into. And that's what probably gets me the most sad is just thinking about the unserved potential that exists in this country because of the incorrect inputs. Totally.

No one loves a sweet treat like I do the best. Right. Like I love a sweet treat, it just tastes 10 times better when it's, you know, 1% of my diet mm-hmm. Than when it's a hundred percent of my diet. And you're just like mindlessly going through a sleeve of Oreos. Yes. Right. Like, again, like to your point, like nutrition should not be your God.

It should just be the foundation of a healthy life pyramid. Mm-hmm. But like. I'm very much like a foodish fuel kind of guy, right? Yes. Like, I don't need every meal to, and like, again, this is the thing, like I think [01:17:00] we're so spoiled in modern society to, we have the option for every meal to be like a genuine delicacy.

Right. Literally hit every flavor sensation you want. Yeah. And, and for cheap. And like, that's the, that's the dark side of ultra processed foods is they're so compelling. Mm-hmm. But like, if you just eat to get by and then like, you know, save your appetite and your money for like, you know, meaningful meals out with friends or like, you know, cooking with your girlfriend.

Like, it just makes those meals that much more special. And then like, you know, one sweet treat hits different. Oh yeah. Yeah. That, that, that ice cream, when you've really earned it too. There's, there's nothing better than. Work. You know, I say working hard when you, when you get flowing on this stuff, it doesn't even feel like it's working hard.

But when you feel like you really deserve that, it's the, it's the best. Like anything in life, that contrast is what creates the, the experience. Absolutely, man. I love that. Yeah. That's, uh, man, that was, what was the, was the spicy food day the hardest [01:18:00] Spicy food day? 'cause I'm also like, I don't love spicy foods that much.

Um, you know, my mom's Canadian, like, that's like, you know, diet British food, basically. Mm-hmm. Um, not known for being spicy, but yeah, spicy food day was just by far the least pleasant. Mm-hmm. And followed closely by gas station. Food day. Oh my gosh, dude. Yeah. Gas station, food day. The, the most dangerous actually was, uh, goo day.

Like, you know, the goo running gels. Yes. Uh, so I set out to eat only goos for a day, and then I had my first and only like, hypoglycemic moment in my life where I was driving and it was like. Lost awareness of where I was. And I pulled over into a parking lot thinking I was pulling over into a different parking lot.

Like I've been in Austin 15 years, I know exactly where I'm at, pretty much at all times. Like I looked up and I was like, holy shit, I'm not where I thought I was at all. Um, I'm gonna go eat some real food now. And, you know, not real food, not like, you know, but yeah. Something that's not gel. Something more [01:19:00] substantial Yes.

Than just gel. It turns out, uh, they don't even have nutrition facts on them 'cause they're not food that's a supplement. Mm. That was scary for a moment, right? Like, and like I, I've had a friend who, who is a type one diabetic, like loses license or have his license suspended because he had a hypoglycemic moment driving and like hit a like, you know, immobile object.

Yes. And like that, having flashbacks to that friend from high school in that moment, I was like, all right. That was, uh, too close for comfort. Definitely will not be playing with that one again. Yeah. And those gels, man, I mean, they. In their endurance community, they hand 'em out at races like their candy.

And some people it works well. They always rip my gut open and I think that's gonna be the next thing that we see in the endurance space. Is these better for you gels? Like there's a company Honey plus one of their founders is in Austin. It's in a gel pack, but it's just this really premium raw honey with, I think there's a caffeinated version.

So there's caffeine in one of the [01:20:00] two SKUs, and then a really good electrolyte profile and maybe adaptogens. But I think that's what we're gonna see in the endurance space too. 'cause those things will do, those things will make you explode. Yeah. I mean I did not realize until relatively recently that runners and chronic digestive issues just like hand in glove, like that's like a very well known phenomenon within the endurance running community is like, yes.

I if you haven't shit your pants running a marathon, like you're not a real runner. A hundred percent. I did not realize that was a thing. Man, what's so crazy is, uh, you know, mark Sisson from Primal Kitchen? Mm-hmm. So he basically like is the, one of the OGs of the paleo community, but he was a ultra competitive, uh, marathoner when he was younger.

He was like a two 15 or two 10 marathoner back in the day, like really fast. And he had, um, really bad IBS from his inputs that he was con as a, as a runner. So it's like you're perf you're fueling for performance and you're, you're driving towards that goal, but that doesn't necessarily mean just because you can run a two 15 [01:21:00] marathon, you're actually healthy.

Yes. That's what's so interesting. Yeah. I mean it's spiking in, spiking so high in one area of health often comes at the de detriment of other areas. Oh, a hundred percent. Um, before we wrap, brother, what, what would you say, what about Throne excites you the most? So kind of like the, the thought or the vision that.

Pulls you forward when you're having an off day or something goes wrong in the business or anxiety or whatever's overwhelming you, what is that thing that excites you the most? And then what is like the most realistic, what is the hardest thing about what you're doing right now too? Great questions.

Okay. So the most exciting thing to me is building a product and your physical product in the real world that is going to help people. Mm-hmm. Like that is, it's also like crazy that this opportunity exists, right? Like it, I don't know it, I think we talked about it this last time, but it really does feel like, you know, the universe has given me the [01:22:00] opportunity to be the shepherd for this idea that is just like way bigger than me.

And it is so special. Like, 'cause I get to talk to people like you mm-hmm. Who like open up about the most intimate details of their personal lives. And yes, we're talking about poop of like, I. The nature of it is like, you can't not smile talking about poop, right? Mm-hmm. Like, it's, it's, yes, it's like a very serious health product and this, you know, medical concerns at the same time.

It's so deeply human and so intrinsically, they're just like levity baked into it, and like, what a special thing. Yes. You know, like, to, to be able to build something that, like, I, I think will meaningfully help improve people's health and one day save lives, to your point earlier, right? Like, what more could I ask for?

Mm-hmm. So that's by far, like, the thing that keeps me going is like, every, every day I, I, I use this like five minute journal, this is like three things you're grateful for. You know, three things you wanna get done today. Um, and then like, you know, a mantra. And like every day I wrote like, [01:23:00] throne improves health and saves lives.

Like, that's gonna happen. So that's, that's what keeps it going. And then, what was the second question? Just what is the, like what is the hardest thing about what you're doing right now? The hardest thing about what we're doing right now is. Making sure we're building the right thing. Mm-hmm. Right? Like it's, there's so many kind of like sharp corners you can catch yourself on building in this space, right?

Like, like when we started out, it was like, are we gonna build a whole toilet? Are we gonna build like a toilet seat? You know? Well, if you build a whole toilet, now you've restricted yourself to basically like new builds and renovations, right? Because like, people have to install like grouting and stuff and like, okay, well, uh, if you build it into a toilet seat, like now you have to like do a whole install process for that.

And like, people can't use it with their fancy bidets. And you know, people have a tushy or a toto, like they're no longer in the market for it. Because like, even if you have a bidet on par, on par with theirs, they're not gonna upgrade, right? Mm-hmm. Like, theirs is already, they spent hundreds of dollars on a really nice bidet [01:24:00] with like a heated seat and stuff.

So like, you know, we had to make something that was like, you know, an ancillary device that could be compatible with those like that. There's just so many of these like little human factors, things that like. We think we've gotten most of 'em right. But like, you know, we distribute these betas, like the device you have, and I get on phone calls and Zoom chats with like every single one of our beta users and ask them like, you know, what do you love?

But more importantly, what do you hate? Mm-hmm. Like what, what if you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about this app or this device, like what would that be for you? And, you know, we're the, the biggest one that we've learned from the beta is like making it hands free. 'cause Right. The version of the device you have, you have to push a button.

And that is like, fine for a beta device, but, uh, people aren't gonna learn new bathroom habits, right? Like, you've been doing the same thing your whole life and introducing a new button to press, even though it's not a huge ask, it's still asking too much. Yes. And so, like, we know that the, [01:25:00] the version of advice that we go to market with for mass production has to be totally hands free.

So you just walk up to the toilet and it just magically knows, Hey, this is Scott, or hey, this is Brett. Turns on. And then turns itself back off when you walk away. And like that took us four months to figure out. And like we just got that prototype working last week and it's like the, I'm so hype on that, but like, it's hard doesn't that there's a full team effort involving front end engineers, backend engineers, former engineers, mechanical engineers.

Like, there's a shocking amount of complexity that like, we're just motivated to figure out, going back to the point, you know, the mission's big enough and like, we like this is, this product is only as worthwhile as people want to use it. Mm-hmm. I think that's the only true, like real productivity hack that exists is I, I don't know, I could be wrong, but for me it's just the, the most confident I've ever felt in the way that I work is when I'm fully bought in on that mission and it's so big and it's so audacious and there's a [01:26:00] lot riding on it.

And that's the thing that just pulls me to do all the things that I don't want to do. Yeah. Like these other things are helpful for sure. You know, like there's so much good stuff in Atomic Habits or whatever. But that's the, that's just the one thing that I always go back to where it's like, Hey, I have to do these things that I don't wanna do, and then I immediately just anchor myself to that thing that you wrote down in the five minute Journal.

And that's what pulls me to do that stuff. A hundred percent. Yeah. For, um, I, I have one more question. So as you're speaking, it was making me think about, um, your perspective I think is super valuable to young founders that, or aspiring founders that listen to this show where you had a super successful launch, the products in, in beta right now.

Um, you guys aren't gonna launch for a few more months and you're just in the grind. You founded multiple businesses before. What is, what is your honest perspective on work life balance, fitting all the things in time management? That's a great question. I, so, so I think. I think I have great, like work life balance.

My girlfriend does not think I have great work [01:27:00] life balance. Right? Like, like left my own devices. Like I called her last night and like I was at HEB getting supplies for dinner at like 10, 15. Mm-hmm. She was like, babe, like that's crazy. I'm like, not really, you know, like, like left my own devices. I will be outta the house by eight in the morning and I won't come back until like 10 or 11 and like rinse, wash, repeat, and like I'm just at home to sleep.

And like, I love that. Right? Like, this is, I don't consider that out of balance. That's just the balance that feels natural to me. Mm-hmm. Um, but I also try my very best not to work on the weekends. Like I recognize like throne is a marathon, not a sprint. I'm gonna be doing this for the next decade of my life at least.

You know, God willing and. Weekends are for friends and family, right? Like, I've got a lot of family in Austin. I've got, you know, I've been here 15 years. I'm blessed to have like friendships over the last decade. Like great, great friend groups. [01:28:00] And I try and reserve those weekends for those things. And then evenings, you know, weekdays is either I'm working late or I am, you know, spending time with my girlfriend.

Mm-hmm. But I don't know, I think work life balance is a deeply personal Yes thing, right? And like, what works for me won't work for other people. What works for other people definitely wouldn't work for me. And like, I lose no sleep over that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Similar to nutrition in a lot of ways, right?

There's different variables for everyone. Combinations that work for certain people. Absolutely. And the other thing is it, what, what worked for me changes from time to time, right? Mm-hmm. Like there are some times where you know, like you're pushing and you've got. Deadlines to hit, and you're, you're doing 12 hour nights or 12 hour days regularly, and you're working through weekends despite, you know, trying to keep that open.

And then there are other times where it's like, you know, I'm gonna take off early on a Friday [01:29:00] and go enjoy this perfect weather. Mm-hmm. No, it's a, it's a great point, man. Um, yeah, you can't be everything to everyone. And when I look at you, I get the sense that I think you're just so passionate and love building thrones so much that you are, you're, you're very content grinding during the week and then at the same time on the weekends, having that sacred time to fill the cup back up too.

Yes. Right. Like, I have no doubt that there's a small percentage of founders where they're just like complete freaks and bulldogs and they just love working 24 7. And it seems like that works for them, but there's just a cost to all this stuff too. And partially why I asked you that was I had this realization when I got back from Expo West.

I just felt it was such an amazing trip. And then up to that point, I really haven't been sleeping great the last month. I haven't been, um, getting outside and walking in the sun and just doing the, these very basic things that I typically do that make me feel whole. And this weekend, man, I literally, I did a little bit of work, but I just reserved it for working out long walks with no phone, getting [01:30:00] sunshine in, and I felt like a completely rejuvenated person.

And that was my ticket for myself of like, you can keep working like this, but it's not sustainable and you actually have to make time for this stuff if you wanna keep doing what you're doing over time. A hundred percent burnout is so real. Yeah. It's, it's so real. But I love that though. It's like, just find the, that the combination of the buckets that are the most important to you.

Fill those things up and then also recognize that there are gonna be time, like I'm sure at fundraising mode, there are other buckets that you kind of have to say no to or put a pause on a hundred percent. I mean, and this, this year for me is that bucket, right? Like mm-hmm. I gave a speech at my birthday party last year, which is like a crazy thing to do, but it was very fun.

Just 'cause you know, you get to address 40, 50 of your best friends, like how often do you get to do that? Once a year. And I, you know, nominated last year, the, the year of Mojo Right. It was like getting my energy right. And like that last year really was the year I fell in love with Throne. Mm-hmm. This year is the year of the Dojo.

Right. Like saying no to a lot of things. Like so I can be in the dojo studying the [01:31:00] blade, right? Yeah. Like we are grinding, we are building this year. This is the year where I'm, you know, doing dinner at 10 15. Mm-hmm. Like getting dinner supplies at 10 15. Yes. Yes. And I, I, I think there's just a lot of peace that comes from just accepting the phases that you're in and then communicating that to your friends and your loved ones example as well.

Totally. And like so many of the people in my life. Know what that entails, right? Like a lot of my friends are founders. Like a lot of my friends who aren't founders are like, that's just Scott. Mm-hmm. He's a crazy person. I'm like, great. Yes. Yeah. And, and just there, there's, there's truth that, there's freedom that comes from just admitting the truth of, of where you're at too.

Like, I had a, I have a really good friend from back home that moved to Austin a couple months ago. He, you know, he had texted me 'cause he was like, dude, I'm just really, he was my old roommate in New York. He's one of my best friends. And he reached out and was like, dude, I'm just surprised we haven't seen each other more.

And he was totally fair in saying that. And then I just explained, I said, Hey man, where I'm at is that I'm getting married in June. You know, there's, [01:32:00] it's the most work that we've ever had. It's, I don't mean this in a selfish way, it's more so I feel this, uh, this very limited window of time where everything is clicking and my life is about to change so much.

And with that being said, we still should get intentional time together too. So it was like a it was, it was, but I just admitting where I'm at and, um. Yeah, just admitting the truth where it's like, I, I want to keep building that friendship and relationship, but realistically, like this is my timeline right now and I feel like I have this very small window that I'm not gonna be able to get back and I'll be, I'll regret it if I don't.

Totally. Yeah. I mean, I've got a few friends that I have like a monthly walk with and if they cancel that walk, which probably happens like one or like half the time, if not two thirds of the time. Yeah. No sweat, right? Like, I get it. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, I'll see you when I see you and I love you. Yes. And good luck with whatever dragons you're you're wrestling with right now.

Definitely. No, a hundred percent man. Um, so what is the best place [01:33:00] for people to get in contact with you? Follow you Throne? I know you guys are still in the pre-launch stage right now. Yeah. So you can follow us at Throne Science on X and Instagram, our website's, throne science.com. You can get in touch with me, my Instagram and.

Twitter, X, whatever, just Scott Hickle. I love Twitter. That's, that's the best. It's just so fun. Yes. Um, and then my email, you can probably figure it out. Awesome, man. Well, this is gonna be such a big year for you too. As we said, we're gonna have you back on for a part two as you guys get closer to that launch.

But man, I've been wanting to do this conversation for a long time, and just your energy, your optimism, the persistence. It's like when I build friendships with, with people like you, it just pushes me to wanna be better. And I think that's the amazing thing about us being here in Austin, is just you're able to be surrounded by so many, so many incredible people.

And I think that's just a good source of encouragement for anyone. Like, even if you're not in Austin, like just surrounding yourself with those people that give you the juices and you can go to with, with that problems that [01:34:00] they might be experiencing as well. It's just, it's inspiring, man. I know that you just wanna juice the lemon outta life and man, I'm just very bullish on you and honored to know you as a friend.

The feeling is 110% mutual. Brett, thanks for having me. Thanks brother. Cool. Thank you, man. I was, you are amazing at this dude. You're easy guy to talk to. Holy shit. Like you sent me the long list of notes. I thought you were gonna have something to reference you just off the dome. I know. It's um, I mean, after you do 400 episodes, kinda like, yeah, dude is fun man.

Dude, I can see you're in your element. Thanks brother. Man, that was, yeah, like even just learn a little bit more about, I wanted to dig into your background a little bit too, and just, you know, Lubbock and, and college. I feel like I learned a lot about you just from those pieces, but it's, uh, dude, it's been an incredible ride.

Yeah. Well thanks for having me. Thank you, brother. Yeah, y'all are good. Keep talking. I'm just shutting things down. Yeah. What'd you think? I thought it was fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Like, sincerely, I've done a few of these. They've been by far the most fun for me. Oh man, that's awesome. It's also, you know, we're homies [01:35:00] so that changes things.

Yeah. Like it just flowed from the top. There's no getting into the groove. Like we were already in the groove by the time we hit record. Definitely. Yeah. It's good too. 'cause every.