#393 Jonathan Lusk: How BirdDog Is Revolutionizing Land Management in America

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[00:00:00] Jonathan, so excited for you to be on the Meme Mafia Podcast. Um. We met over at Arena Hall and it was very clear that we needed to make this happen. So I'm glad that we're finally doing it. Yeah. Thanks for letting me, uh, join you, man. This is awesome.

Yeah. Have you done what, what's your podcast circuit been like pr prior to this? 'cause I'm excited to introduce Bird Dog to our audience. I've done like maybe four or five. Okay. Podcast. I was really nervous when I did my first. I was like, I'm not sure how to do this. So what happens? You know, and I did my first, I was like, okay, this is awesome.

You get to know, it's a little bit nerve wracking with the lights and everything. Yeah. But once you get going, you just start talking naturally. Yeah. It's like it's, it is great. It's easy. Yeah. Well, I'm excited to talk about what you've got going on over at Bird Dog, just 'cause mm-hmm. It ties together so much of what we're about.

On the Meat Mafia Podcast, just this whole movement, we were just talking about the Maha movement. Mm-hmm. Just raising awareness around the health and wellbeing of our country here in the us. And so much of what you're doing is tying back, uh, you know, people to the resources that we have from a land [00:01:00] standpoint.

Mm-hmm. Bird dog is a hunting platform, making it, uh, more easy for people to go out and find land leases to hunt on. Mm-hmm. But you guys are thinking so much bigger than that, which I think is so cool. So when I, when I met you over at Arena Arena Hall here in Austin, I was like, dude, we've gotta, we gotta talk.

Like, I love what you guys are doing. Thank you. And think it's so much. It's one of those things that. It's like a big, it's a, uh, one of those things that if, if you guys really succeed mm-hmm. There's gonna be such a downstream effect that people don't even realize is because of what you guys end up building.

Mm-hmm. So I'm super excited to have connected with you just to, to build a relationship and be friends, but to just get you on the show is, is an honor man. I'm honored to be here. I mean, this is, this is a lot of fun. I mean, I've heard a lot about the podcast and I know you have a huge following and the messages that you guys spread are very important and I'm just honored to get the.

Tell our story and be part of it. Yeah. Well it's funny what brought me down to Austin was a similar idea and concept to what you guys are building. So I'd love to hear, you know, how you guys came to, to actually [00:02:00] start working on this idea. 'cause I think it's so incredible. Yeah. Um. You know, and I think creating more unlocks around how we can get people reconnected with the land is such a beautiful thing.

So I'd love to learn just more about the genesis story about you. Uh, it's pretty wild bird dog. Wild. It's pretty wild. So like I, I grew up in a little town in north Texas called Whitesboro, and my dad's a, a fisheries biologist and we are very poor and I didn't wanna be poor anymore, so I went to Wall Street.

And, uh, I went to, it was an Easter weekend, then we went to visit my dad and we were like fishing and swimming in the pond and we went and got chickens for the kids. And he's got aquaponics set up and had like three, or, you know, it was like four flower bat or uh, like raised gardens. And I was driving home and I was like, Kat, what, what are we doing?

I wanna get a place out in the country. And so we did. And uh, my background is investment management. And so two of my best friends from Texas a and m, Jason Ballard, Nevin Loomis, started Icon 3D printing company here in town. And they took [00:03:00] some money off the table and so I managed that for them. And uh, Ballard was like, Hey Lusk, I need you to not just manage my money, but do my taxes and manage my ranch.

And I was like, dude, I don't do any of that. That's like way too much work. And he's like, just double my fee. I was like, Ballard, you're gonna pay me a lot of money. I was like, I guess I'm gonna update my resume. So I was looking for an Airbnb for hunting to put his ranch, you know, just to show income in his LLC.

Uh, and it didn't exist. I couldn't find it. And so I went to him and I. I was like, Hey man, there's no technology in this. At the same time, my best friend Taylor Jackson was, uh, he's got a construction company. He was trying to find places to take subs, uh, hunting, and like if they're, if they do have websites, they're typically old, they're like 20 years old.

Or it's like, call for price. There's no clarity around the process. I was thinking about it from a stewardship perspective of a landowner. Hmm. That said, Hey, these families, you know, the ranches are all on a trust. There's typically five kids. One kid likes to hunt, the rest don't care, and everybody gets capital called for property [00:04:00] taxes, you know, insurance and, and feed bills or whatever.

Mm. And so like, and they, and all these ranches lose money. They're all on the red. So it's like, man, if we could sell some hunts and make it easier for these construction guys or whoever to find hunts, and then all of my landowners can make money. So Valerie gave us some money, and then the next month I was hunting with Colt McCoy, and Colt was like.

Dude, I love this idea. And so he was my second investor. So, uh, we just went and raised, uh, some capital and we found 10 ranches that had commercial hunting operations. We hired, um, a photographer and went and got photos of the ranches, talked to the biologist to understand what game that we could hunt.

And we built this website, you know, on Shopify. And it went, it went bananas. And um, so we got a bunch of individuals. We started, what we noticed is like, like getting into hunting is intimidating. Mm. Because most of the time you think you need to know like a lot before you get into it. And I didn't grow up hunting, so, you know, I grew up, you know, [00:05:00] not even fishing.

We were like sanding ponds. Mm. You know, and delivering fish and doing all these things. And I was like, well, there's a huge education component to that's important of this. So we started hosting hunter's heads, you know, so like you'd have like the kids that come and sit on the front row and then the moms and dads that would sit on the back row.

And then you would educate everybody because especially the dad, the dad's like, I know what I'm doing. I'm like, no you don't, bro. Like, and neither do I. So like, let's stop faking it. Yeah. And actually learn. So we gonna have fun. And then you go out and you shoot, you know, rifles and shotguns and they're like, Hey dad, you get up here and load this gun.

And then they get comfortable with it and then we go do these father son hunts or mother son hunts or whatever it is. And everybody loved it. And then they would go bring their friends. Um, and then I started, I went on like 22 hunts. I was like, I've gotta catch up. You know, so I went on 22 hunt the first year, and I wanted to like understand what the pain points were for these landowners.

And you would talk to these guys like, man, I just qualified for this tax [00:06:00] credit. Or I got, you know, this tax deduction or whatever it is. And I'd go ask their their neighbor, I've never heard of this. And you're like, well, you know, you qualify for this over here. They're like, no. I said, man, we've gotta aggregate their taxes.

We've gotta go find out everything that they qualify from a state and federal level. We'll organize it 'cause they're on five different websites. And that's a way for them to make and save money. Uh, so we started building that and then I get a call from a farmer in Kansas and said, Hey, do you have land that I can farm?

I'm like, we've got over a million acres. You know, a lot of it's range land, but I bet we can find area for you to farm. And I, I was like, how does farming work in America? He's like, well, I meet somebody at to coffee shop, you know, and I lease their land. I've got all the carrying costs, and we pay them a dollar per acre lease rate.

Uh, and then I, I said, so you, there's no real platform to find land for farmers. He's like, no. I was like, okay, we're building it. Uh, and so like we did that and then I, you know, and then these cattle guys like, Hey, we are [00:07:00] dying to find land to lease for cattle. Hmm. Like, man, we've got the tiger by the tail.

This is. The way to think about us is like, like Amazon started selling books when they first started and then they started stacking these different verticals. Mm-hmm. We started selling hunts and, and fishing trips, and so we're stacking the taxes and then, you know, insurance for them because they might need general liability insurance or uh, drought insurance or whatever it is.

Make it easy for these people to, uh, to fulfill their legacy. Um, with easy ways to make money or save money on their property, you know, whether it's cattle and then all these people that are looking for land, they've got an easy way to dial into these landowners, which keeps wild places wild. And it keeps these families together where they don't have to to sell it.

You know, I, I, I, yeah, I always joke that we're like, we're helping the du, you know, helping the duttons, you know, keep Yellowstone, keep their ranch. Yeah. But like at scale, in different sizes, anywhere from. A hundred acres right now to, you know, 50,000 acres or more. [00:08:00] Hmm. So where are you guys seeing the biggest opportunity?

'cause it's, it's amazing just listening to your story because it seems like it was just green light, green light, green light. Mm-hmm. In terms of like the, the actual problem that you guys are solving is not just hunting, it's access to land for people who aren't wanna run cattle and just like all the different.

Things that plug in there, you're talking about taxes and helping them with their mm-hmm. Their taxes. It's like, it could really turn into something so much bigger than just helping people find land to hunt on. No, I mean, the, I think that the, the hunting is gonna be, you know, really important. We've got about 90 properties, uh, US, Mexico, Argentina, Africa, about to.

Uh, bring Scotland, bring a castle in Scotland. I was like, okay, if you guys wanna do it, we wanna do it. Yeah. So, um, you know, the hunting all over the place. Um, I was just in Iowa a couple weeks ago. We signed up a hundred farmers. We're gonna launch that marketing marketplace in like May, June, something like this.

Nice. And they're really [00:09:00] excited and they, they told us about another group that tried this before. Again, just you spend time with people and understand. Like, there's a reason these technologies haven't been built. It's because it, it's relationship first. Hmm. Like, what is it that we're trying to solve?

Because you, you can't just go, oh, we got this platform of technology and people are gonna adopt it. It's like, what's the human aspect of what we're trying to solve? And these, the, the, these farmers were having dinner with them and one of the guys said, Hey, someone else tried to do it, but all the institutional came in and outbid all the local farmers and we just boycotted it.

Hmm. I was like. Well, that's interesting. I was like, well, no, institutions on the platform, number one and number two, we need to do an excellent job of telling your story. Like maybe you are a, you know, a third or fourth or fifth generation farmer in Iowa or Kansas or Nebraska, somewhere like that. I. Um, but you can only afford to offer 30 bucks an acre and someone else can come get, you know, 50 bucks an acre.

How do we tell your story, right, and your family story of why it's [00:10:00] important. Mm. That maybe you can win that business? I can't guarantee it. Like some, you know, somebody may take the highest price, but they may also believe in you. But that's our job to tell your story. Mm-hmm. So like farming. You know, throughout, we care deeply about these individual families.

Okay? I don't like farms getting rolled up and sold to institutions. Like, I want these individual families, the people who are so important to America to thrive. And so there's a huge opportunity, um, on the farming side and then the tax stuff. There's just no easy way to do it. Mm. So if you make it, I'll give you an example of one thing we're doing.

There's a, there's a deal called Section 180 in the tax code. Okay? So if you own land. Okay, and you are either farming or you're running cattle doing agriculture on it, and the, you've bought the place in the last three to five years. You can take a soil test and you can write a report and you can take the excess fertility in your soil and get a tax deduction.

So we've sent out about. $17 million [00:11:00] in tax deductions this year. Wow. It's like we're in the middle of March, and so these, and most of the people had never heard of it. Hmm. And we're like, well, it's, it's big in kind of the Midwest and farming, but you can also do it on range land. That's one example of like 10 things that we're working on.

We're like, Hey, here's something that you need to know about that could benefit your family. Mm-hmm. Um, there's habitat, like wildlife structures, things that you can do that improve the earth. I'm like. You know, we, we call it conservation capitalism. Like we care deeply about the planet, deeply about the earth, um, and the conservation and, and making it better.

Um, but we also think you can make money doing it. Mm. Um, and so we, that, that's the category that we've kind of created and operate in. Mm. Um, and, and when you bring these families and have the human element together, it's like. The family succeeds, their legacy keeps going. Um, the earth is better. The way that we farm and do agriculture is better.

And it's just like the, [00:12:00] the, the timing's just perfect for it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think like in the post covid world too, you see a lot of people kind of like thinking about, you know, getting more space and moving away from the urban city centers that are loud and kind of almost just like designed to work against our biology, like mm-hmm.

Almost a spiritual awakening in a lot of ways. Mm-hmm. Where people are like, I need to get, like, reconnected with some of like what you're talking about with like the father son hunts and just like these experiences that. Show us that there's a bit more out there and, um, I think like the disconnection from our land has led to a lot of these health problems in a lot of ways.

Yeah, no, I, I'll tell you this, like going back to my story of growing up in the country and then thinking I wanted this other thing, uh, but really deep in my heart, I wanted to be on land. And so in 2019, my wife and I, after that trip to go visit my dad, we bought, uh, some acreage out in Washington County.

In between Austin and Houston and I've got, [00:13:00] you know, married and have three little kids and they're running around barefoot. And funny story, my wife called me. Yeah. And she was like, Hey, you know, the boys, one of, they're both in their underwear. One, they've got the top of the feet, fish feed are off and one's like chunking feet into the pond and the other one's got a dip net 'cause they're trying to catch dinner.

And I was like, we succeeded. I was like, this is awesome. Um, to be able to see stars at night and to breathe air and just the, the, the people that I live around out in the country are just like. The humanity of it all. Like I would, I would assume, like my stress level's down like 40 to 50%, which makes me a better human being.

Yeah. We have a garden where we're making our own vegetables. I'm, I've got a fledgling orchard that my deer eat all of my fruit and, but we, we got chickens and we've got this like little tractor, so we have like natural fertilization and, and you know, a lot people are like. Things that stress a lot of people out are different from what stresses me out.

Right? Like, I'm trying to grow like oak trees and [00:14:00] flowers and like gr you know, like gra native grasses. Yeah. You know, but it, it kind of changes your, your, your tuned. And I also understand the difficulties, uh, of like maintaining a property out in the country, um, which has, which has given me a lot of insight into what other people both like the positive aspects of like.

The, the, the, just the mental acuity or like the, the healing that you get. Mm. From, you know, being out in nature. But also how do we make it better? Yeah. Um, and be a, and be a part of the process. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that we talked about when we first met over at Arena Hall, and, and you brought it up a little bit, was just the ability to like create those human experiences out on the land.

Mm-hmm. And. Make it accessible for people who otherwise like aren't gonna go on the trip. Right. And make it just very approachable for people to have that type of experience. And you have one of those experiences and it, it could like completely course correct and or, or change the trajectory of your life.

[00:15:00] Like where you're just like, okay, I've been working the job in the city, grown, numb to just like my routine and I've lost this connection with this greater purpose. And then you get out in the quiet country and you just get to sit. With your thoughts, your family and experience and just like be with God.

Yeah. And I think that that type of experience is what's, I think created a little bit of a divide between urban and and rural areas in the us Yeah. And I think it, there's something special to what you're building is what I'm trying to get at. It's like there, it does create this access to. These nature that I think a lot of people just struggle to get.

Mm-hmm. Because they're, you know, you know, living in those urban environments. Right. That just pull them away. Yeah. Two things that come to mind when you say that is my buddy Carlos, he took his son on a father son hunt, and, uh, they harvested, I think it was, it was a hind, a red hind. And he came up to me at the end of the trip and I was like.[00:16:00]

Hey Lusk, like this was, this was life changing for me. Hmm. It wasn't like, Hey man, this is a great time. He is like, no, this is life changing. Hmm. I never would have that experience with my son. I could never, never have done this on my own had I not found this. And then the whole thing with my son, 'cause like on father son Hunts or mother daughter hunts, like sometimes it's hard to start conversations with your kids and know what to talk about.

So we have like these parenting books that we'll give away. And we also do like questions you can ask your kids around the campfire. To like facilitate that, the humanity of it all. Hmm. Um, and really it's around the campfire where those, those, uh, convers because you're always on our phones and like you can put it down for a moment and like have the, get back to humanity and, and talking to people.

That's one example. My buddy Chad, uh, and his wife went. Uh, to Africa on one of our hunts. And he was in a Bob line all day by himself, and he worked for Big Law and came back and quit his job and served his own law firm. Really? And [00:17:00] he's crushing it. Wow. And it, but it was one of those things like it's scary to make a change, right.

But he was like, I have to, like, I'm just at peace. And, and both of these families live in the city and we're able to easily access these opportunities, one in Africa and one in central Texas, um, to go do exactly that. I always think about. And there's a lot of country songs that are written about this, but you go, like, when you were little, like life was so simple and maybe you were at your grandparents' house and like you're taking a nap and then you wake up and grandma's cooking something and there's like pie and you're running through the sprinklers.

Yep. And, and then life gets very complicated. Mm. And there's a lot of things that pull at you every day and you're like. Remember the good old days? Hmm. I go when I figured out that's what, that's what we do. We create, we recreate the good old days and we actually use technology to get people off technology, but it allows them to easily find these things, these experiences, and go on them.

And it's been like. Seven or 800, [00:18:00] you know, experiences that we've done and all five star ratings and the, and the feed, the feedback is the joy that we get. Mm. Where you think it's one thing, but it's something very, very different. Yeah. Which is life change. Mm. That's, and like, how does that sit with you as the founder of this?

'cause I'm sure you were kind of thinking about the downstream effects of, or obviously like the downstream effects of what you're building is, you know, land management, access to hunts, all this stuff. But actually like. Impacting someone like your friend who's quitting his job after having an experience like that.

I mean, it's truly life changing for people We like. We want to tell their stories, like to like the broader community, but also I want my team to understand what we're doing as we grow. You're like, what you're doing is worthy and it's impactful. And it's impactful for our planet. It's impactful for these families.

Mm-hmm. The human beings that like, uh. Kind of run the earth and it, it, it's obviously way bigger than I ever [00:19:00] anticipated. You know, we're thinking like, oh, we need, we need like a public tee time system for golf. But for hunting was the idea. I love that like clarity around photos and ratings and reviews and pricing and then go book it and then go the experience and you've got different locations and different price points.

Um, but like, what it really is about is, is creating this community of people that when you enter in. To a bird dog experience or just with us, like your life is impacted. That's, that's really cool. Mm. And people all the time, we had this fishing, uh, hosted trip for this corporate group last weekend, and the guy was like, Hey, unbelievable.

Executed. Like, we, we will have live music there. Like, we want people to feel at home. Um, and yeah. And the, and, and the, and the impact is something that I, I never saw coming. Hmm. But it like really fuels us. Um, and gives us a lot of energy to go what we're doing matters. Hmm. What, um, what was it you think that got someone [00:20:00] like Colt McCoy excited about being involved with what you guys were doing?

Like what did he see in what you guys were building? I. What he told me was that he, um, he had seen some other things like this where you could rent ranches, but there wasn't hunting involved. Hmm. And he was like, so you're gonna do hunting and fishing? And he grew up in Tuscola, Texas, you know, uh, Jim Ned High School, uh, and.

Was like, Hey, I wanna be a part of this there. There's no one doing this. It's a great idea. And it's what I love doing. Hunting and fishing. And so he is like, here's my cell phone, call me. And I called him the next day. He is like, I'm in, you know, talk to my guy and get the paperwork signed and wire in. And then he's like, if you ever need any help at all, and I went to a and m and outside we joke, we're like Aggies and Longhorns bringing world peace through hunting.

Yeah. But I'm like, he's been so helpful and a great friend of mine Mm. Um, retired from the NFL and now he's calling, you know, big 10 games and they live up in North Texas now. But, uh, he loves it. Mm. And it was [00:21:00] funny, you know, going back to the, the idea that I didn't grow up hunting, but I had this like, wealth management background, so I knew how I wanted people to feel on these experiences.

And I was like, Hey man, like. I was walking one day and I was like, wouldn't it be cool if we had musicians come and play around the campfire? And uh, I was like, let's get some, you know, Texas country music singers to come. And I was like, Hey man, do you know any Texas country music singers? He's like, I know 'em all.

I was like, well dude, hook me up. So he had me with Pat Green, so I talked to Pat and uh, did an equity deal with Pat and he's like, this is a great idea. And then I got, I talked to Roger Craiger, and Craiger was all in and. We do my stuff with Josh Abbott, and what'll happen is it'll be a group of eight or 14 people that go up, you know, for the hunt or the fishing trip, and then come in and we'll have, you know, have a meal and hang around the campfire and those guys will play for, you know, 90 minutes for like 10 people.

And here's the background, this story, or you know, this song and here's what was going on. Hmm. So [00:22:00] he's been, Colt's been super helpful there and just, um. He, he's been great. Mm, he is, he is a wonderful man. Mm. From a business building standpoint, how important is it to have somebody like that on board early who can kind of just like sprinkle a little bit of extra, uh, juice on what you guys are doing?

Like having country music stars come out and sing around a campfire is, yeah. So cool. When you have guys like, you know, Colt and Case Keenan was an investor and like what, like my cap table is basically all these guys who are like ranch owners and business owners. And users of the product where they have ranches that are on the platform or they've got corporate groups, they're going to hunt.

And then you've got these big names who believe in you, and then you become friends with them. I mean, it says a lot. Yeah. I mean, I, what here's funny is like, uh, oh, we're raising capital. Uh, you know, and I know they're Longhorn. I'm like, Hey, Colt, can you make a video? You know, for Steve, you know, he'll go, Hey Steve Colt McCoy here.

I know Lusk is an Aggie, but you know, we're all one big family at Bird Dog. Hope you can [00:23:00] join the team, man. And the guy's like, send me, send me wiring instructions right now. I'm like, I like dude. I'm like, thank you so much, Colt. But, um, but those guys are like super helpful and I mean, it's meaningful. I mean, I'm, I'm very thankful for those relationships.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I feel like just at the, the beginning, the onset of going after like such a, a noble mission, like you guys have, you need those early people who really like, use the product mm-hmm. But also just believe in the mission and are able to pull in resources as well. Yeah. Um, it's so important.

Yeah. Yeah. It's been, it's been, it's been huge for us. Is there, um. Have there been any setbacks in terms of just like those early, early days in building the business? Just like founder, founder stories where you're like, man, this, this is maybe, uh, maybe I've bitten off more than I can chew with this thing.

Uh, well, we started the business in like the absolute worst time you could ever start it, which was 2022 with interest rates really high because like 70% of our hunters are corporate groups. Mm. Okay. So like. You know, not again, too [00:24:00] much finance, but it's like, you know, all that debt on the, for the businesses floating rate debt.

So like they, you know, they basically cut their hunting budgets and that was really hard. But what it, what it allowed us to do is to go increase our supply side. Hmm. Because these ranches who were, when we first started, people were like, oh, we're full. We don't need you. And I'm like. Give us one weekend, give us like a week.

Give us a month. Yeah. They're like, now we're full. I'm like, I know you're not full. They're like, okay, we're not, we're not totally full. But, you know, so we were able to, to add, I think our first year we had maybe 15 or 20 ranches, and then, you know, the second year we added another 30 or something. We like, I think we're 80.

80 or 90, something like that right now. Hmm. But. Like, and now it's back. Now it's back. And if we had not started at that time, there's no way we could have gotten the supply. Hmm. And now we've got a reputation as like a trustworthy partner. Right. And we built the software now. So this landowner portal, you know, the landowners can log [00:25:00] into it, they can sell hunts.

We like, we have all the data to understand what people wanna buy. So you may be a landowner going, I'm gonna sell this 200 inch deer. You're like, well, you should probably sell a dough in 145 inch deer. 'cause that's what the data says that people actually want. Interesting. Or, you know, people really wanna hunt orx right now.

Hmm. Uh, and then we can help you buy those animals or like, uh, and replenish them or whatever. Uh, so allowing them to get really smart about the hunts that they're selling or the fishing trips that they're selling in that landowner portal. It's also important that, you know, these ranches are owned in LLCs.

Mm-hmm. And so it's like, okay, you now have an operating business. And so if you sell this ranch to somebody else, they can log in or like, Hey, I'm doing a couple hundred thousand bucks in revenue. My expenses are such and such, and it's a very smart way for you to manage that land going forward because we've organized it for you.

But the, the setback, it was frustrating because early on we're like, man, we should be getting more conversions, more people. Hmm. And you're like, [00:26:00] the guys are like, what we, what we saw happen, we're like, maybe you booked a hunt in South Dakota for pheasant and we could get you on a quail hunt in the panhandle of Texas.

You know, early on, so their budget was lower, but that was, that was probably the biggest surprise is like the supply side was, was a lot easier than the demand side early on. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What's, it's really fascinating to me thinking through how you guys will continue to grow that supply side. Yeah. In the way that you will do it in the beginning, which is like.

H one sha handshake at a time, calling those people up, being like, give us a weekend. And that's like where you kinda get that lead in and build the trust with these landowners. Mm-hmm. Which I imagine they're almost like a union in themselves. Like you're talking about the group that started, uh, before you guys mm-hmm.

That failed. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like they basically lost the trust of the, the landowner. That's right. And yeah. Now you're gone. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The, the. Now we're getting to self-serve. So we, so now we're, we've got a, uh, the thing that really was, uh, [00:27:00] meaningful for us was last year we did a partnership with Field and Stream Magazine.

Hmm. And, uh, it was, it was bought by group, um, including like Morgan Wallen and Eric Church and their CEO, uh, Doug McNamee. Uh. There was a bunch of guys, like, you guys gotta meet, you guys gotta meet. And he used to run Magnolia for Chip and Jonah Gaines in Waco. And so I went to Waco and met with Doug and we're both very intense human beings.

It was like a five hour meeting in two hours and he was like, can you build a website that's co-branded so that my readers can go on hunting and fishing trips? And I was like, yeah, I'm gonna do it in about three days. He's like, oh, that's too soon. We gotta like, let, let's launch it. I was like, okay, let's do it.

So we, we launched it and, and Fox Business picked it up, which was huge. And we probably picked up, you know, 15 new properties in seven states and started getting the word out nationally. 'cause I think about when you have this business, you either have like a, a really, like, you either have a total addressable market problem, or you have like a mess.

Like people don't know who you are. Hmm. And our addressable [00:28:00] market is like immeasurable. Hmm. So like, like, like actually people understanding who we are and what we do and how they can dial in, uh, with our, with our services. Is what we've worked really hard on, you know, the last, you know, six to eight months.

Yeah. Um, and that's gonna continue to grow. Mm. Uh, to, so yeah. And, but you want, what you want to do is have the same mentality and messaging of the handshake deal. And everything that you do, because that's actually what your culture is and who you want to be about. Mm-hmm. It's probably gonna be a lot harder at scale when you have a thousand properties Right.

Or something like that. But not all these properties that we can serve wanna sell hunts. Mm-hmm. Not all of them want to run cattle. Right. Some of 'em, you know, they all need the tax help, but maybe it's like, Hey, we just want to have, uh, we just want to have access for farming on our, on our property, or we want to do it all, um, but we can offer a solution for whatever.

That family needs if they wanna work with us. Mm. I think it points back to what you were saying earlier on [00:29:00] storytelling and, and really like telling some of these stories about the landowners that you guys have on the platform already. Um, when you were saying that, I'm thinking of like Yeti mm-hmm. And Huckberry, and they're like those Austin brands that are just so good at storytelling.

Mm-hmm. I feel like that's kind of like the direction that you guys might be heading in if I'm just like almost seeing that like for you guys like. Just being able to tell those stories, um, the success stories of like what the platform is actually trying to do. Mm-hmm. Because I, we were talking about it a little bit before, but just like the.

The clarity of the message and, and being able to resonate with both sides of the people who are looking for the solutions on the demand side, like going for hunts, but also, you know, these landowners, it's, it's a difficult message to like easily communicate, I feel like. Yeah, the messages are different.

So what you want to tell someone who's trying to sell hunts is different from a farmer, is different from a hunter, is different from a fisherman, is different from a, you know, a fishing guide. And so you have these different segments that you're like, okay, what is important to these people? [00:30:00] Who can we help?

Who can we not help? Mm-hmm. Like we're, we're solely focused on the landowner, that's our client. Mm-hmm. And so how can we help as many landowners, you know, we started in Texas and then it's like now we're in the us but like, what are these, I mean, we've got hunting places all over the world. How can we help them on farming?

How can we help 'em these other things in the future? Uh, and what is the message that really resonates with them? But the storytelling is important for multiple reasons, number one, 'cause they have a story to tell that people may not hear. And, and that's our opportunity to go share that with, with everyone.

And now with social media. Uh, and these different ways to, to market, you can get the, you can get that message out because I think we're going from more like, like corporate institution, like down to like, who are these individuals and these families? Mm. They're like really, really important, and like, how do you do that at scale?

How do you tell their stories and then help them at scale and then when they have success. You know, we're gonna have success and we're totally aligned with them. Mm-hmm. And that's [00:31:00] like, that's conservation capitalism. Hmm. May their, their fa I'll go, I go back to it all the times like about their legacy.

Like how do you help them achieve their legacy with these families? How do you make the earth better? And then how do you make money doing it? Hmm. And if you, like, if you have all those things together where these guys can pay their bills. And they can keep that wild, place wild and make the earth better and like make better products and farm better.

Like that's, that's what we're trying to achieve. It's hard. It's very hard, but it's worthy. Mm. So all of those different avenues that you guys are building out, would you say that the conservation capitalism and keeping wild things wild, like that's your core message, what you guys are gonna continue to build around and scale around?

That's, that's exactly right. That's, that's what it's, that's what we're all about. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I, and our, you know, tagline that we created was like, your land, your legacy. Hmm. And so, like, uh, what I've learned is just like in hunting, there's also an education of like, how do we, how do we farm better?

Mm-hmm. Like what are better practices? Like. [00:32:00] With like the Maha movement, like what is and USDA, what is gonna come down the pike that we can then take from a, from a, a private capital, uh, perspective and go say, here's what's coming down. Here's like an easy way for you to understand it, and then here's how you can implement it, right?

Like, that's what we want to, that's what we wanna do. What are the farming practices? Uh, I mean right now, if you want to. Go from just traditional farming to regenerative farming. It's like if any pesticides have touched something, you've gotta wait three years. That's, that's very challenging on startup costs.

If you wanna make the transition, there's a distribution problem. Yeah. Uh, how do I get my product to market if I'm not making it at scale? Yeah. Um. How do I get insurance coverage for organic products? You know, 'cause if my crop fails, then you know, how can I make that work for my family? It's very expensive.

Like, how do we make these things easier? And then once, once we figure out how the game's played, we can then go take the message. [00:33:00] Just like we started with education and hunting and then get people to experience it. We get folks educated and then we get, you know, we start implementing these things and you go like, I wanna go into Walmart, and like it's all organic food.

Yeah, exactly. You know? Exactly. Not just like one. Exactly. It's all regenerative. Yeah, regenerative. Yeah. It's like not just one tiny section. Right. But you're like, no regenerative farming. Is what everybody does now. Mm. And Bird Dog was like the player that helped us get there. I think that you guys are working on solving potentially the biggest problem out there.

Mm. Um, like what you're saying, it's the access to this, this land, but also like every piece of information down to like the end consumer realizing that like right now. There's limited supply of regenerative resources because of all these reasons, and that's why it's expensive. So right now, anyone who's buying regenerative, it's, it's probably mostly like the high end tail of the market.

Who, right? Just has the financial resources to buy that way. But then also like over [00:34:00] time. The only way for those prices to come down is for access to land and to these practices, which are like, you went to a and m. Yeah. The schools are teaching the conventional industrial model of agriculture, right?

They're teaching people how to get overburdened with debt and then spray pesticides on their land, and then the flywheel. Starts and it doesn't stop. Mm-hmm. Until you're, you know, 50 years down the road and you're now you've, you know, your land is just completely degraded. 'cause all you've done is just, you know, collect corn subsidies on your land.

Right. You know? Um, and so this whole other way of practicing, like we've had Joel Ston on the pod and Will Harris on the podcast, and they had to make decisions at one point to like break from that model. Mm-hmm. And, and. I don't think it was a comfortable decision, but like break away from the conventional model and take on some financial risk in order to stop using pesticides, but to eventually be able to build up a model that was self insulated.

And I, I think if you, if. F you know, [00:35:00] from our conversation with Will, they're still trying to figure out how to close loops. Yeah. Within that ecosystem of farming. But it all comes back to access between consumer and like the landowners at the end of the day. That's the biggest problem that I think needs to get fixed.

If you want Walmart to be correct, going regenerative and those guys are heroes for doing it, think about it. It, it's like, think about them making those decisions when, in the time in history where they, they've gotta make those. Yeah. Now think about the future. Where you have the Maha movement and you've got, you know, Brooke Rollins at USDA and you've got these people in Trump that like deeply care about these things and wanna make a change.

I think the policies are gonna get, make it easier to do it. I'm telling you, a lot of these farmers on the individual side, if you made it easy for them, I. You know, to, to make a transition and they could make money. 'cause they're not making money right now. Mm. Commodity prices are like, not very good. Like, like the institutions aren't gonna love it.

Yeah. But these people would go, yeah, I'll change tomorrow if it means that I could, [00:36:00] you know, support my family and make the earth a better place. It's like they'll tell you all the problems that, to, to make that transition. Mm-hmm. So if you can make it easier, and I think it's only gonna get easier. It's not gonna be easy.

But it's gonna get, it is gonna get easier. And then, but when the information comes out, if there's a way to, to, to take that information and get directly to the farmer, get directly to the landowner, um, that's what I think is gonna be most impactful. Hmm. And it may be, it may be like slowly getting this stuff out, but I always tell the team, I'm like, we have gotta be the leaders in this.

Like we're, we're, we have used AI both. Um, from an efficiency perspective, but also from a coding perspective, but also for like a, like an information, like how do we process everything that's coming out immediately and then synthesize it in a clear message to each of these groups of people so they can get educated, but also, you know, go accomplish whatever they want to accomplish on their, on their land.

Mm. I think that's, that's gonna be a big role that we play. Mm. Where before it might be like. An [00:37:00] FSA agent or USDA agent, you know, that's in every county. Like, you know, God bless 'em, but they don't always know everything that, that, that those organizations have to offer to the landowner. Right. Um, and I'm not saying it's their fault, but I'm saying like, what, what we have to offer is to go directly to that landowner and then they can go log in and say.

Or an email that we have. It's like, here's what you need to know about your specific part in this county, in this state, in America, and here's what you can take advantage of and here's how you can do this process and here's what's coming towards you. We can synthesize a lot of data and a lot of information and provide clarity for those families.

Hmm. It's so interesting. Yeah. I feel like one of the things that your guys' model, I think is really important in doing is connecting the hunting and the ag. Um, 'cause I. You know, I think about land utilization and conservation, like the model that we have now is very extractive to the land, but you guys are working in a way that's, I think, hunting and farming.

In [00:38:00] order to actually like, utilize the land in a way that you're stewarding it forward and being able to actually put those nutrients back in the soil Yeah. But also make it economically viable. Like you have to do a little bit more on that land to get, um, you know, be able to support it. Like, I, you know, every time I've been hunting it, there's cattle running on the land too.

Right. You know? Right. It's like, you know, utilizing it in a way where you're able to, to make money off it. And then, you know, use that money to pour it into better practices maybe, or Yeah. If you're already doing things the right way, like it's scaling that business up. The, uh, to, to that point we were talking to, we were running the section 180 play on the sole fertility, uh, program and.

We, um, you know, we, I was, there's this big landowner and, uh, he's in Kansas, like 60,000 acres big. They run like 50,000 head of cattle up there. Geez. And it's a, it's a big operation and we're helping him with Section 180. And I was like, Hey, are you guys doing anything on the carbon tax credit side? And he is like, [00:39:00] no, man.

The guy came out and, you know, didn't get along with my ranch manager. I was like, so it's a personality thing? And he is like, yeah. And he just told us all the things we had to do. And I was like, okay. So I run it through the filter of conservation capitalism and I go, man, like when you think about capitalists, they want options, not obligations.

Mm. So they don't wanna be told what to do. Like these are like, these are like landowners, like pull myself up on my bootstraps. My grandfather taught me this. And I was like, well, what if you said. Hey, you're running this, these cattle, like, here's the program and you could make, you know, 15 bucks an acre in perpetuity.

Uh, if you just keep doing what you're doing and here's the paperwork, we'll make it very easy. All these things. And then here's the program where people are gonna, you know, check in. Low maintenance, you could make 25 bucks an acre if you did these other things. Mm. You don't have to do anything. Mm. But just the messaging, that simple messaging that you have the option but not obligation to do these things, [00:40:00] the guy's probably gonna choose the $15, you know, an acre opportunity and it's gonna make like really good practices and here are the things that you can do.

It's like an education but not an obligation, if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. Um. So, I mean, it, it, a lot of this is messaging. It's like understanding, educating, and messaging, and then people are like, yeah, I wanna do that. Mm. You're telling me if I did regenerative ag and I could make, you know, twice as much money and it makes my soul better and replenishes it and it's good for humanity and it's not gonna cost me an arm and a leg to do this.

Like, yeah. That's what I'm telling you, like, well, let's do it. Like, who wouldn't want that? Yeah. It's just a win, win, win. It's a win, win, win. Yeah. Have you more of a business question, but have you found it? Easy to find people to hire who understand the message, who are willing to go to Kansas and shake the hands of the people who are not doing the carbon tax credits, but should be like, there's just such a human element to what you guys are doing.

Like you guys are building a software and a [00:41:00] platform, but there is just still that underlying human element that I feel like is so important for your guys' success. Oh yeah. I mean our, our team, this is the best culture I've ever worked with in my life. And everybody is fun and hardworking and smart and are on mission.

Um, and so, and I think like the, the younger generation wants to be a part of something that matters. It's making an impact. And so they can come in and see that it actually does, and it's fun. And so we, we have, we have a lot of talent. I think we've got like 30, 35 people on a team now. And we've got these because, because right now it's, you know, it starts out, okay, you've got this hunting marketplace, right?

And now we built this software, this landowner portal where the landowners can log in and they can take the link to their, their site and go share it with all the hunters that they're selling. And it's a much better experience for anybody who's gonna book versus like, Hey, is a yellow pad, right? You coming to hunt?

Are you doing these things with me? Uh, and then, and then we've got a group that's going to sell to, to corporate groups. Hey, bring your 10 guys. Let's go do [00:42:00] this. But in the future, it's an account management model where they've got 50 farmers, ranchers, whoever, that they're going to check in to see how can we make this product better, you know, uh, how here's, we see you're using it over here.

You know, I'm making up these numbers, but like, you know, people who use this function make 25% more money or whatever it is. Mm. Like, we'll figure all of those things out. But you, you do, you, you, like, you look for, and you attract these high EQ people who like, love people well and love their jobs and like some of them are ag minded and others aren't.

But every time I talk to somebody who wants to work with us, if, if they're A players, I'm not very good working with B players, but like if they're, if they're on it and squared away in high eq. Like you'll get hired if you come outta that meeting going like, I'll do whatever it takes. Mm. And it's very binary.

Like some guys Oh, you're one thing I'm thinking about, I just tell the guys we're not hiring them. Yeah. Like we're not one thing. Like you're, and that's okay. Like yeah, we want people who are fired up about the mission [00:43:00] and excited and I think we hired like four new people the last two weeks. Yeah.

Something like that. And so like we're getting a lot of talent and it's a lot of young people. Who are like, Hey, I can go out on the road. I can go meet with this person. I can go sell this. I understand because I'm like, it's gonna change in about three weeks. I'm gonna ask you to do something different.

You gotta be flexible because that's, that's where we're going. So the talent has been super easy, uh, because our message is very clear. Hmm. Yeah. I feel like it's just like. When you guys, you guys are building something that's audacious, it's a big vision. Having the right people on board who understand the mission and just understand the commitment level that comes with that, like I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make this succeed is so, so important when hiring people.

Oh, yeah. And it's, it's a lot of the, a lot of the folks are, you know, a lot of 'em are from small towns or just humble backgrounds, or they've been through a challenge in their life. Mm-hmm. Um, that they've had to overcome and [00:44:00] like all of us, you know, and, and they're just good people. They're just good people, you know, humble, hardworking, you know, on, on, on mission with us.

And so, yeah, it's, we've been fortunate to get the talent we have. Mm-hmm. We are. Do you think it's important that you guys are based outta Austin or, or even just Texas? Uh, well, a lot of people wanted us to move our headquarters to Austin. Yeah. And I, I said, no. 'cause I live in Chapel Hill, Texas. I actually live in Washington, Texas.

Washington on the Brazos, which was the first capital of the Republic, Texas 1836. And so people were like, Hey man, we want you to move to Austin hq. I was like, no. So we're, we're actually, I'm buying a building in downtown Chapel Hill and everybody's re relocating there. Nice. It's harder for engineering talent.

Um, but we have engineers all over the place. We've got about 20 engineers. Um, but you kind of wanna keep those guys away from your sales team 'cause they'll just bug them all the time. Yeah. But sales and marketing altogether, um, and, and you know, I'm actually re reincorporating the company from Delaware to [00:45:00] Texas.

Nice. Um, and people are like, well, what's your exit strategy? I was like, we'll sell or, you know, I was like, it'd be really cool to IPO on the Texas Stock Exchange. It's coming here. And what It's coming. Yeah. Yeah. Jim Lees, CEO, he's a great guy, but it's like, uh. I was like, how awesome would it be to like fire the cannon instead of ringing a bell.

But we're, we're t at the heart of who we are and we're Texans. Um, but we, like we, we we're gonna serve the whole contract. We've got, uh, we've got on our carbon play. We've got four people in Iowa, they got dozed from USDA and we're like, we'll take you. Mm. You know? And so that was a, and that's what Trump and those guys want.

They want people to be in, in private business. And we're like, Hey, we're open for business. If you can add value to these landowners and we can integrate it into our software platform, we want you. Yeah. Um, and we'll find, we'll find a way to make it work. Mm-hmm. And so that's how we've. Being able to create these, I, I call it like an incubator building, you know, billion dollar businesses inside of bird dog.

Hmm. So you have like [00:46:00] the hunting, you have the hunting vertical, the fishing vertical, the tax vertical, the farming vertical, uh, the cattle. Uh, I'm working on some software for, uh, mineral rights and water rights, so you can understand the value of these things. Um, so you know, like anything that touches your land, you're like, okay, this is what, this is the value of what I have, and then I have these levers that I can pull.

To make her save money if I choose to. Hmm. So when, when did you guys launch you guys? Uh, we came up with the idea in January of 2022, and we launched the site in August of 2022. Wow. Has it surprised you how quickly all of this has come together? Yeah. I mean, it's wild. It's, it's wild because early on you've gotta go raise capital and uh, you have to have like, you have to suspend reality as an entrepreneur.

Yeah. And have a vision. And then, and then bring people on that catch the vision. And so there's some subset of people who get it. And so you gotta, it's just like capital. There's like, I'm sure there's a lot of people that wanna invest in us that don't know who we are. And we [00:47:00] don't know who they are.

There's a lot of people that wanna work with us that we don't know who they are and they don't know who we are. And so we're solving that right now. Um, but like as a visionary, you have to. Like I said, suspend reality and go, this is what it could be. And then we just thought it was like hunting, you know?

And then it was like, there's so many more problems that we can solve. And it was just people coming to us going, Hey man, could you build this into the product? Hmm. And I was like, that makes a lot of sense. Or Hey, this doesn't make sense right now. Like, but this one does. Let's go build these things. And then it, what's really sweet is when you start like getting customers and then you start a new line and like they.

You know, pay you to do it. It's like being up in Iowa and signing up a hundred farmers, going like, this is awesome. And, and I was flying back with Michael Kotter. He is like my chief revenue officer, and he just, he's working on a lot of products. Like he, he, he organizes 'em, makes, makes him efficient and then in hands it off to our CTO who builds a technology around it and then, and [00:48:00] then hands it to our marketing group who, who markets it.

And we're flying back and we're both just exhausted. And I was like. We just got a hundred farmers. He is like, I know it's cool. I'm working on this carbon play and I'm working on, you know, this insurance deal that we're trying to get done. I was like, we gotta celebrate. I was like, what we're doing, it's coming so fast.

If that makes sense. Yeah. That like you have to step back and celebrate the wins 'cause there's so many of them. Hmm. Um, so. Do you, have you always been kinda that visionary? Like you said you were on Wall Street before. Do, do you always feel like you had that ability to kinda cast a big vision for, you know, a company like this?

I've always been a maverick. Uh, and, and I could, I didn't know, just the cowboy spirit, cowboy spirit of like, I always see I've had the vision, but I'm not good at doing it in a way that other people want me to do it because I see. I see it a different way. Hmm. I'm like, tell me what you want me to accomplish and let me go do it the way that I think would be most efficient.

Hmm. All right. And so, [00:49:00] you know, I worked for, I worked for at and t 300,000 employees, Goldman, 30,000 employees. I worked for a, a group that spun out of Goldman. It was like 30 to 50 people, and I just wasn't sat, like my boss would come to my office at like two o'clock and he's like, what are you doing? I'm like.

I'm pretending like I'm busy 'cause I'm, I was done at 11 o'clock, like, I hate this. I wanna go work out and then like, just chill and then go meet people and do these things. But it's not acceptable on the corporate market. And so just that dissatisfaction of like, the way it was, uh, I was like, I need to just go start my own deal.

Mm. And so I stepped out when I was 34 and started my first company. I was like, oh, this makes me come alive. Mm-hmm. Like, I love, I just wanna take care of customers. Yeah. You know? And what do they want? Not what is like. Whatever want. Hmm. Like I'm just gonna focus on you. And then that thing was, you know, successful and I thought that's what I was gonna do.

I thought I was going to be a money manager my whole life. But really that prepared me to be able to speak to these landowners about things that [00:50:00] matter to them. It's almost like an education, right. You know, to, to start Bird dog and. And I've like in that other business, I'm, you know, selling it right now, but I've got one employee and I was like, I just didn't want to deal with a lot of people and all their problems and all the things where people are, you know, don't wanna do this and I'm mad at this person.

But now we've got so many employees, like I feel called, you know, to lead them. And I'm, I'm, I'm 43 years old and I'll tell you like I've never been, uh, more at peace or more on mission in my life with. You know, with the Lord, with my wife, with my children. And what I'm doing on, on this mission with the people that I'm working with, it is I am a free man.

And when you're free, you're bulletproof. You just like go build. Mm. And you go bring people along. And you, I, I have like. 15 fires a day that I've gotta put out. It's like what Elon talks about, where you're basically like staring in the best and chewing glass. Yeah. That's what I do like most of the time.

'cause I'm like working on hard things every day, but I go to bed at night like [00:51:00] with a clear head and like total peace and I sleep like a baby. Uh, knowing that like what we're doing matters. Hmm. That's amazing. Uh, I, I feel like from the outside looking in too, it seems like. Um, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're totally playing in your lane right now of just being able to be a visionary and cast that vision and maintain that focus on the things that you need to, and then you have the right people in place who can come in and take stuff off your plate.

So, you know, you don't get necessarily bogged down with things that aren't vision focused. Right? I mean, I, I mean. I didn't know what an integrator was until I read Rocket Fuel, you know, and I was like, I need an integrator. I am not an integrator. I'm a visionary. And so seeing, seeing those opportunities to hire integrators, like operators to go, Hey, take the vision, but I'm, I'm, I'm not naturally gonna go do these things that I'm not good at.

I need to spend most of my time doing these other things. And I heard this guy speak at an event and he was, you know, CEO that he'd taken over for this company and. And they were [00:52:00] like, you know, you guys have doubled or tripled profit or whatever it is, and like, what is it that makes you such a great CEO?

He is like, well, it took me about a year to figure it out, but what I learned was, as my role as CEO is like, I've got a bunch of partners, so I gotta understand what each of them want. He said, uh, my job as to cast vision, it's to make sure that we have enough capital. And I'm a glorified HR manager. Yeah.

And I, that's what I talk about. I'm like. I literally like, make sure we have capital. I cast the vision, uh, as a visionary, and I go get the right people on the bus. Mm. And then I let 'em loose. Mm. And so I've got friends like, Hey, how many hunts you guys having going on? Or Who are, you know, what's going on over here?

I was like, I don't, I don't know, man. I was like, it's a lot. I was like, well, where, where is this at? I was like, I don't know. Let me check in with 'em and see. And they're like, they're moving so fast, faster than what I thought, you know, because, um. They're really good and we use AI to build a lot of things now.

Uh, so it, so things are moving very quickly. Hmm. It's so exciting seeing what you guys are building. Um, [00:53:00] so. Excited to get out on one of your guys' hunts at some point and just experience it for myself. Love to have you, man. Um, but just kudos to, to you for casting that vision and building the team and going after it.

It's, I think it's gonna solve an incredibly big problem. Um, and I just, I'm excited to be able to hype you guys up and promote you and, uh, now just call you a friend. Yeah. So appreciate you coming on the show. Where can, uh, where can people find you? All right. And learn more about Bird Dog. Bird dog it.com.

Woo. Bird do it. That's what I says. I love it. Venmo, me, Google it, bird do it. Uh, and then we're at Hunt Bird dog, uh, on Instagram and all the socials. So we'd love to host folks, um, on hunts or fishing trips. If you're a landowner. Would love to opportunity to serve you and, and have you sign up for our software.

Uh, and, and, and grow with us. We'd love your family to partner with us and, and grow together, but that's where you can find us and I'm thankful to be here, Harry, and, um, meet Mafia and what you guys have built. It's very impressive. And so just an honor to be on your platform. Yeah, [00:54:00] thank you. And there's plenty of landowners listening to this show, so I hope they reach out and, uh, connect as you're talking, I'm like, I gotta connect you to this guy and this guy.

So yeah, we'll take care of him. Sweet. I love it. Thanks Jonathan. Thanks brother.