#395 Geoff Woo: What It Really Takes to Win in Business

Copy of GeoffreyWoo_4_1_2025
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[00:00:00] Jeff, what's going on brother? Good to be here guys. This is great. Appreciate you coming on. Uh, how's a TA treating you so far? Good. I feel like I gotta spend more time here every time I'm here. Just like good people, good vibes. I think the crossover from people interested in health, it's a business to tech is just like a very, very cool mix.

So every time I'm here it's just fun. But I'm doing a 24 hour blast here, so Little podcast tour. Yeah, podcast tour. Hang out with some friends, so, you know, couldn't ask for more for 24 hours. That's awesome, man. Yeah, I feel like this episode for us has been a long con, long time coming. These are our favorite episodes where we have guests on, that we've actually learned from, from afar, and then we actually get to build relationships.

And we met at Nick Sharma's dinner in Miami. Yes. We got to sit next to each other. Yeah, you were on my left. And then your business partner Joey Levy was on my right, which was, it was a cool night. So it was great to meet you. How'd you, how'd you wedge yourself in there? Oh, I'd see, I had seen, we had had Michael Brandt on the podcast.

Yeah. And so I, I followed your stuff for a long time and you did an awesome interview a [00:01:00] couple years ago in the middle of Covid with Lance Armstrong. Yep. And that's how I first came to know you, because I feel like if you don't know Lance, he can kind of come off like a, a dick a little bit. But he was really into that interview and I was like, I wanna know, learn more about Jeff.

And that's how we, uh, that's how I initially came across your content. Yeah. So, no, I think that Lance convo, he's become a friend over the years. I can see why he was the best in his field. I mean, the guy is a hard charging and I think, I don't think he would deny being like, yo, he's kind of a dick. Mm-hmm.

Because he is like the Michael Jordan. I'm here to fucking win. Yes. He can't keep up. Fuck you. So it's very interesting to see him pivot from, uh, you know, the best cyclist ever to now running a venture capital fund, doing content, doing podcasts. So, yeah. Um, yeah, it was interesting 'cause people did mention that was one of the best Lance conversations that people have heard.

I've just heard that over the years. Um, yeah. I don't, I don't know what. I know. It was like, I think he never showed that much vulnerability. Probably. It's, I think, one of the reasons why people like that conversation. Yes. 'cause he's always like, [00:02:00] I'm, I'm tough. I'm here to win. But I think he talked about just a challenge and the identity struggle from being the best ever cyclist to being like everyone hating him.

Totally. Was there anything about how you approached that conversation where you feel like you were able to actually undress, like some of the maybe things that he had a guard up around before that he was like, willing to talk about with you? I, I didn't think about it too much other than just be, have a open human conversation.

I feel like maybe in the content game, we're all trying to be characters. Mm-hmm. And I think it's a normal thing, right? Like, okay, we need to be like the more amplified, entertaining versions of ourselves. And, and I think the best creators are pros at it. Like when I see a camera turn on for like the Jake Pauls and the Logan Pauls, I mean, they're so fucking good.

They just sense the camera. They just turn on. You can like almost see their body language switch a little bit. Um. But I think most people just want to have real, like, open conversations. And if you can just like mimic that with a camera, with a mic [00:03:00] rolling, I think that's very powerful. It's just, I like to keep like an open, relaxed tone.

Mm-hmm. Like if I'm, I would be the same, having the same conversation you offer on camera. Mm-hmm. Yes. And maybe that's an ideal that I've thought about a lot, which is that you should try to treat everyone the same. Meaning that if you're meeting the president or you're meeting a barista, like if you are truly self-actualized, you wouldn't talk up or down to anybody.

Hmm. Like you would give everybody the same level of respect. Hmm. Versus like Ben Knee or like overly ask kissing or overly arrogant to anybody. Mm. But if you can keep steady Mm. Because you're confident of who you are, you're either confident of your value and you respect people. Mm. That feels like a very good mode to try to aspire to.

Whereas I think all of us mold our characters depending on the context. Mm. But if you can be as staple as possible, that seems like a very powerful position to be in. Yeah. It's funny that you say that too. 'cause that's something that Harry and I, we, we had that a similar thought process. 'cause when we started the show, you know, we're 400 episodes in now [00:04:00] and we just started getting like, like virality on Twitter and podcasts that we're doing super well.

And so we made this list of dream podcast guests and we started checking 'em off really quickly. And what we realized, like the more we were, it's almost like we were so complimentary that you could almost like encroach a little bit on the guest and they appreciate it, but they kind of knock you down a peg too.

And we just learned the more real that we were and just treating everyone the same. Just the better relationships we were building, the better the podcasts were. So I feel like that perfectly reinforces what you were saying too. Yeah. 'cause I think there's probably like an imposter syndrome level where it's like, and 'cause like it's so cheap now to put a camera on, right?

Like anyone can do it with like an iPhone, right? Yeah. And everyone has iPhones. But I think that skill is that like realizing that the more interesting conversations have that dialectic. Mm-hmm. Right. If I'm just like monologuing my. Spiel and like the best podcast or content people, I just have their spiels.

Yes. And it's kind of like boring. You're just like auto, auto play. Mm-hmm. So like, I think that, like, that's like a, a insightful comment, right? Like the more [00:05:00] interesting content pieces have like a little bit of push and pull and dynamic. Yeah. I don't want to take the conversation too meta too quickly, but, but with content creation becoming more of a core part of building brands and building businesses, I feel like it's easier to kind of play a part and not necessarily have like a true identity.

And what I've noticed and observed is like authenticity, I feel like is playing out and starting to win again. Whereas like, you know, and, and those are the types of people who know who they are, they have a core identity, they're strong in their beliefs, and I feel like there's this tide that's shifting.

But I, I also know that there's like this world out there of people who can play different parts and be comfortable doing that. So how do you kind of just see that playing out? I think it's just, it's, uh, okay. So I think we can go pretty macro here, right? So, and, and, and maybe I'll just start like on a very like, business economic side.

So if you just look at media as propaganda or [00:06:00] marketing, um, it needs to be very centralized, meaning that like, there was like three cable channels and like four newspapers, right? And I think with technology, and I think that's been a pattern through almost every single industry, you could make the argument that cryptocurrencies a decentralization of finance, biohacking, human performance is a decentralization of healthcare.

And then I would say for information networks, like having conversations that can be amplified and distributed for free is essentially information decentralized. Um, and I don't think you, you can never put that back, right? Mm-hmm. Like, I think it's like a one-way door. Everyone's gonna be their own distribution marketing channel.

So like what are the most interesting assets in that new world, right? If you control the network or the protocol right now, these are like the Facebook's X's, whatnot, tiktoks, they're very valuable. And then like the top, like actual content creators on them. Like they become the new A, B, C, the Fox News is, right?

Mm-hmm. Like Tucker Carlson is bigger than [00:07:00] Fox News, right? And he just runs his own thing. Like Candace Owens is bigger than whatever platform that she's on. Um, so to me it's like from a business and from a power perspective, you need either like own the network or control the protocol, or you become one of the big taste makers and content creators in there.

But because it's so cheap to now make content, I think it's like a very parallel dynamic, meaning that if you're the top one, like if you're Joe Rogan, you're bigger than number two to end combined. If you're number two, you're bigger than three to end combined. So. Then it's like, then you put the layer of AI and auto generation and it makes content even cheaper to make.

So like my current operating thesis is that like now is like probably the only moment where you can like make and still maybe compete for like a voice in this super cheap information [00:08:00] environment. Mm-hmm. So like anyone who's like even thinking about trying to do content and build a brand and build a following, you gotta do it now.

Mm-hmm. Because there's gonna be like 3 million generative AI avatars who are hotter, sexier, smarter, and can auto generate content 24 7. Mm-hmm. So I think this is like the point where build that human. Authentic voice and then think about how to use AI to turbocharge you. Hmm. I love that perspective. I was thinking before we came on the podcast, I was like, why do I resonate?

You know, why have I personally resonated a lot with your Instagram account? Why do I bookmark so many of your videos? And what I was thinking about, to your point, is that content creation and the way that we consume is such a double-edged sword where if you even take my health journey, right? I had really bad autoimmune issues.

I had ulcerative colitis because of podcasting and social media. I found out about carnivore. My doctors never mentioned anything about that. To me, that was what healed me and got me off of all the drugs and meds. Yeah. The flip side is the last two years there's been such [00:09:00] a influx of new health and wellness content creators.

That now we're almost over-indexing on the fear porn and men are like afraid of touching receipts and having air filters in the room and all the stuff we were DMing about the other day. Yeah. So it is a double-edged sword and I think your superpower is from a business standpoint, someone that's been there and done that for, you know, 10 plus years, being able to kind of like call shots like you see it because for a lot of founders they're, you know, if you don't have great mentors, you're almost relying on these people on social media for advice, but you don't know really what is their proof of work behind the scenes.

And I feel like you do a best in class job of like calling bullshit truth versus lies and like what we should actually know from a business standpoint. Yeah, no, thank you for the kind words. I, I think part of that, I think confidence comes from like, I was very lucky to just be good at school and you know, graduating top of class at Stanford and computer science and going through Y Combinator and all these elite Silicon Valley VC firms and like all [00:10:00] my friends are.

You know, literally like C-level execs at Open ais or Metas of the world, right? Or like, or the, the compliments that are, you know, GPS or partners at, you know, the top venture capital funds. Right? And that is a very insular network of just like how people structure deals, how people evaluate companies. And then you have like this social media world where it's like the course selling people.

Mm-hmm. Right? Like I think Alex is probably the best one, whereas like, packaging, like very viral, but very basic content and like turning it very, very viral. But like, he doesn't have like the proper like real business background in the sense that like, I think he sold the gym consulting business for his first money, right.

For like $80 million or, or something like that. Which is like a lot of money objectively. But in terms of Silicon Valley wealth, it's like, I don't know, like that's like a series A round, right? Like literally. People are building [00:11:00] billion dollar, raising 80, they're raising like $800 million for their like, venture businesses, right?

So there's like a different level to the actual sophistication of how Wall Street works, how Sandhill Road works, versus like the best content creators, right? Like Alex Ramzi, for example, is way more famous than our friends like Jake Mewell or, or Drew, right? Mm-hmm. But they're literally senior partners at like a multi-billion dollar venture capital firm based in Austin.

Um, but like, no one knows who those guys are. Yeah. But they are like Series A early investors in the Andels Riss of the world, which are multi-billion dollar companies. So I feel like the only thing I do is like, okay, let's just like package and distill what actually happens in the elite rooms in Wall Street and Sandhill Road and do it in like a very short form, easy to digest format.

Mm. And like, to me it's like, I'm just happy to share. 'cause I, I, like, I, I, I've no. I don't feel competitive about this information. It's just like, [00:12:00] why not just make people smarter? Yeah. Who cares? Was there a turning point for you where you felt like, you know, the switch went off and you're like, all right, I'm actually gonna start doing this in a way that like is putting that information and that alpha out there for free.

Like, I'm gonna do this content creation thing. I mean, I think I was actually just inspired by my business partner, Jake Paul. Um, like, and this is like probably just a little bit more calculated, where I just saw how much distribution power he had. Hmm. And so like one of a, a core operating hypothesis I have is that there's two, uh, scarce assets in the world of business.

One is capital, right? Like, we gotta pay the bills, you gotta buy inventory, you gotta buy ads, et cetera. Um, and every, and everyone's like focused on fundraising. And I think that is very important, right? Like money is lifeblood of business. If you don't make money, you're dead. But I think what's arguably more scarce is actually attention.

Hmm. Like [00:13:00] there is much more money in the world than like good operators and good problems to solve. Hmm. So I think a lot of VCs and a lot of angel investors are burning money on dumb shit. Um, because people are just like finding like really good ideas to back. Hmm. So, one thing that in a world of overabundance of capital, and especially with AI automation, robotics, I think we'll have more and more capital and more and more production for less and less, or maybe like, not less, but like the same amount of good ideas and good operators.

Hmm. Right. Like, I don't think, and this is an interesting debate, like, do you think you can generate more tier one founders or tier one operators? I don't know. Maybe I, I I think it's pretty linear to amount of people that, like amount of humans. Mm-hmm. Like there's just like a distribution of peoples, right.

There's a bell curve of like super geniuses and not so genius and a bunch of people in the middle. I don't think you can just like, somehow just like. Manufacture more super geniuses unless you start like genetically engineering people, which, which might, which might happen. [00:14:00] Um, so that's a distribution of like how the population works.

Then if you can just harness attention to focus the population towards the problems you are interested in, I think that's arguably more valuable than capital. Mm-hmm. Right. Because capital will follow attention, capital will follow culture. So that was the reverse engineering of why I started doing more content.

'cause I just saw, uh, how easy it could be too. Mm-hmm. I mean, I, I'm sure like when you guys started like this podcast, it was like, it probably felt like a big step, but then you are like doing it and it's like, hey, this is actually like part of my life. Like, it's actually just like a hack to meet cool people.

Mm-hmm. Make content and just build like, just inventory of attention. Yeah. To like channel wherever you'd like. Mm. So I feel, I feel like to me it's like actually just like a net positive on your life and on your focus. So to. Plus all the business advantages. Yes. Mm-hmm. But people don't like realize that there's like that starting point that like people don't, don't have the balls to [00:15:00] do.

Yeah. Literally, basically. Right. Yeah. It's like they just don't have the nuts to take advantage of an asymmetric bet. That's literally like just purely around conviction and whether or not you can string together thoughts around your experiences that are valuable to people. Exactly. Like if you can throw that stuff out there in a genuine way, people will follow and listen to you.

Yeah. There's a guy we had on the podcast recently, Michael Smoke. He just simplifies health stuff. Literally, Cameron Face just talks to the camera, such simple and easy content. But he is a sales guy, so the way that he speaks is just captivating. It's the simplest content, but he crushes. I'm like, if people just followed this model.

Like you, you would create so many opportunities for yourself. And, and honestly, it was a look in the mirror moment for me where I'm like, okay, we've been doing this podcast for a while and I feel like we've missed out on opportunities that we could have taken advantage of purely because I didn't, you know, put more skin in the game.

Yep. So, yeah. That's a good, good reminder that that's, I think that's like, I, I love being pushed like that. Totally. Right. You're just like, man, [00:16:00] like, I think what I've realized, it's like there's no billionaire. Like I've met a lot of 'em right. From, they're not a thousand times smarter than you. Like Elon Musk is pretty smart, but he's not a thousand times smarter than you.

Yeah. He doesn't work a thousand times, literally harder than you. Like he works pretty fucking hard, but he doesn't, like, there's just, he has really good systems, really good ideas, and I think has like a really good capital network around him. Mm-hmm. And he's executing really, really fucking well. Mm-hmm.

So it's like you just get pushed. When you like meet them, they're like, okay, they're like a human. Mm. Little quirk. Like, I mean, Elon's quirkier than most humans, but like all these guys are humans. Yeah. So I think once you get that confidence, I'm sure you've interviewed a lot of like interesting, famous people and they're like, okay, cool.

Like plus or minus 20%. Yes. Yeah. I think something that helped us out a lot too is we got fortunate identifying the right medium of content. So for us, writing threads on Twitter in 2022 when Twitter was exploding with health content, that was perfect for us. And then we parlayed that into [00:17:00] podcasting where even though we had the knowledge, podcasting took the pressure off of us where we're just the informed enthusiast that's interviewing the expert.

And that really helped us. And then you get to a point where you're creating vlogs and Instagram style content where you kind of become the expert. So I'm curious for you, what, what were those kind of like early mediums of content? 'cause I've seen you write, I've seen you do vlogs, the podcasting, the Instagram content.

What was like that natural sticking point for you in the beginning just to start to get that early content out for Jeff? Yeah, I think. My calculation was you have to play in the toy platforms, right? Like, you'll be very hard to compete with Joe Rogan or Lex Friedman on long form. So, but like, I think you, I, but I think it's still like a valuable platform to play, but it's like, okay, like again, that parallel dynamic it is, they've done it for like 15 years.

They have like a, literally like a 15 year head start. And this is what I was thinking about from like a venture capital perspective, like a Sequoia Capital or a [00:18:00] Andreessen Horowitz. I mean, Andreessen Horowitz is like maybe a 15-year-old fund, but like Sequoia's been around for like 15 years. So you can't compete knife to knife with someone who's done, or like a firm that's done it for 50 years.

They're just like a time durability that you cannot accelerate by being a genius or working hard. Like there's something about like, why do people like Louis Vuitton or, uh. Whatever fancy Italian leather product company. I mean, it's the same shit that literally probably higher quality hand stitch in Austin versus some bullshit, you know, Italian leather product.

Right? Like, why do people like Laurel Piana? I like, I know the family that, like, I, you know, Pietro, Laurel Piana, he's like a nice Italian dude, but like, who told, why is he like the moniker of like, taste, who, who decided? Well, just like, that thing has been around for multiple generations, so it's like hard to compete against like a legacy of time.

So it's like, okay, you, you cannot compete. So strength. The strength. [00:19:00] So then I was thinking, okay, like roll off. Both of Sequoia is not gonna make tiktoks, right? Like he's a, you know, he's like the, the lead of Sequoia Capital, right? Like these billionaires aren't gonna do like the quote unquote dumb content formats.

Mm-hmm. So the orientation around some of the short form content has been around. This, like this is the language, these are the communication primitive of our generation and younger. So lean towards the things that look kind of stupid. Yeah. And go fucking hard at it. And I think if you just reverse engineer Jake Paul Logan Paul's career, like they were, they were doing Vines six second video, that's how they started.

They were like the first biggest vine stars. But I think to your point, they were very, very good at mul like shifting platforms. I think most people cannot, they don't have good taste to choose platforms to hop. Mm-hmm. So I think if you just reverse engineer what they think, they were like very good at hopping to YouTube.

Mm-hmm. [00:20:00] And then I think with Jake, you know, now he, you know, he's like just running boxing, right? He broke Netflix with Mike Tyson and then arguably, I think he'd admit it, he was like a burnt out flatlined YouTuber. And I think there's a lot of people like that. There's just like, I think a version of Jake Paul would've been like.

Yeah. Burnt out, coked out LA failed YouTuber, dude. Mm-hmm. Really? Yeah. Like he'll say that like boxing was like, not just like a, like a personal hobby, but like a really good business and career move. Wow. Right. Because then he actually have a completely new platform where, uh, he has much more mainstream legitimacy versus like just a standard content creator.

Right. Like, I think what I've seen in the market is that Jake has like the ESPN, the Netflix backing, where like most YouTubers are just stuck in like internet land. Mm. Like, it's just interesting, like a Mr. Beast has more followers, but I think in terms of cultural clout, it's, you know, it's debatable, [00:21:00] right?

Like I think it's much more close. Mm. My outsider perspective on Jake too is it seems like since this transition into boxing. Obviously there are these incredible business opportunities behind it, but I, I almost get the sense with him that there's like this purity of competing that men are dying for.

And I've seen you talk about that a little bit. Yeah. Like finding that fire under your ass and being able to pull those levers. And we both found it playing college baseball and then you, you know, you become a corporate cog in the machine. It feels very selfish here that fire's burning out and we, we found that purity doing what we're doing now and it just seems like a lot of young men are dying for that.

And it seems like that's what he has with boxing too. Do you think that's fair to say? Yes, a hundred percent. I think that's one of the reasons why we started w the men's personal care brand. It was, I would say like, what's interesting to me is less so about the personal care products, although they are, are great.

I think it's more of the mission behind, like no one speaking to young men in competition and like that blue collar work ethic. I think capitalism beats that out of us. Like I'm sure when you guys were like. [00:22:00] Kids, you guys like, wanted to be the best fucking baseball player. Totally. A hundred percent. Like, and and you and you thought it was possible.

Yes, a hundred percent. Right. And I think we all thought we could be literally president, billionaire, astronaut, whatever. Like we all had like crazy ass dreams when we're like 12 and then like school and then capitalism, like crushes everybody. Mm-hmm. And then you're just like funneled into like a, like a normal path.

Mm-hmm. Yes. And, and I think that is like probably the cultural crisis or dissonance that we all sense. Mm-hmm. And I think that is like opportunity for like great young, like, like people like us just having a little bit of experience underneath our belts. Mm-hmm. It's like empowering, encouraging people to just man the fuck up and do interesting stuff.

A hundred percent. Like don't lose that childlike curiosity and spirit. Mm-hmm. It's one of the things I love about your content. 'cause I, I feel like I. You embody so much of the entrepreneurial spirit, which I think is like what makes America so incredible [00:23:00] that there's just opportunities that people can go take swings at.

And uh, I think it speaks to like the spiritual conception. Like I think we have this a, a physical conception into life and then a spiritual conception. And a lot of people can miss that sp spiritual conception if they don't have someone who can walk them through a rite of passage or that moment where they're like, I don't know if I can do this.

And they just hear the right thing and it's like, boom. Yeah. You take the risk, you become the entrepreneur, you build the business, and then you've created something that is actually undeniable within yourself that's unseen, that's actually a force of nature. And like I think if you're an entrepreneur and you've taken a risk, you resonate with that feeling of like, I knew I needed to make a choice.

I made the choice, and it felt like it was gonna be difficult. And I then I did the thing and it actually worked out. Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think one thing that. I felt like there was a void was just getting the brass tacks of not just like entrepreneur porn, but also like the shit is hard. Yeah.

[00:24:00] And I think like the Lamborghinis, which are all rented and like the penthouses are all rented or they're just like really good at clout chasing to like borrow all this stuff. Like I literally see behind the scenes of how like the best influencers are so good at wheedling into events or like wheedling into like, oh, this is like a car that it's gonna print its mind type of stuff.

So like I felt like just like the raw basics of actually explaining how business works is super valuable. Mm-hmm. Right. Like I think people get so caught up. So like, then it's like, okay, you swing from, hey don't be a corporate cock. Like be super entrepreneurial. And then it's like, well how, what do you do?

Like, and I think because school has been, is so out of vogue. It's like, okay, maybe school is useless. And then, then, then you just realize like, look, like you actually need to be smart. Like you actually need to be educated. You gotta be educated in the right ways. Mm-hmm. Like, maybe it doesn't matter if you can do solve partial differential equations, but [00:25:00] like, you still need to know how to run a spreadsheet and a p and l.

Mm-hmm. And actually like, do cash flow management. Mm-hmm. So it, it's like, okay, how do you find that balance of like, yes, have balls, but don't be a, a neanderthal monkey. Right. Like, you actually gotta be smart, like the smartest, there's a very high correlation of IQ and business success. Right. You don't need to be a genius to be a billionaire, but like, there's way more genius billionaires than not genius billionaires.

Mm-hmm. Right? Like Bezos, Zuckerberg, like the legends, they're straight up smart. Right. Like Bezos, Princeton Top class was doing quant trading at DeShaw before launching Amazon, selling books online. Right. Zuckerberg was a Harvard dropout. Right. Like they're getting, they had like very classically good educations.

Mm-hmm. That doesn't mean that if you're not like classically educated, you can't be great. But it's like you need to get those, those skill sets you get, you need to get that, like that raw understanding of how business works, how to manage cash flows, what is the actual technical innovation that is [00:26:00] different from the market.

Hmm. I love it. So it's like that one two punch. Yeah. Right. Have the balls, but don't get so alpha matcha that you don't actually study the game, you study the history of what people have done. Mm-hmm. And I think that's like the, I, I think the angle or like the, I think the void that I've see in the market.

A hundred percent. Yeah. One of the things you, you had mentioned a couple minutes ago, Jeff was like this balance of like raw work ethic. With this incredible self-belief and competition and one of the clips that Harry found on you was this awesome clip where you were talking about your great-great grandparents that were Chinese immigrants that were basically building the railroads in California.

And like that's true hard work. You imagine the hours that they put in the work ethic that that probably, you know, probably flowed down from generations to you and how hard they worked. Yet maybe there was never like that self-belief of, hey, you could become an entrepreneur, build something incredible in this country, and I'm just curious for you like, you know, what kind of lights that fire under your ass with all the things you're doing between anti fund and key [00:27:00] to IQ and better and w and all these, these, these products that you're going after and things that you're working on.

Like what, what fuels you If you're waking up in the morning and you're like, fuck you get hit with anxiety of all the things you need to do, like what keeps you moving forward? Yeah, no, I think your an all of our ancestors right? Like had way harder problems Yeah. Than us. I'm sure you know, your grandparents probably fought in World War ii or you either your great grandparents or grandparents, right.

Like, so like just my family history and just something that like, I don't talk about that much, but I think it's something that like I should and just like reminds me of just like the core spine strength is that, um, yeah, my great grandfather on my dad's dad's side, um, so my great great grandfather came to the United States from Hong Kong and I think he was actually pretty entrepreneurial.

Like, I think he was building like small businesses to literally like, [00:28:00] like the San Francisco, California railroad shit that we read in like, I dunno, in California you learn about this stuff. And I think he was like, you know, probably doing some of the laundry, like small, uh, like, like knickknack stores selling to all the Chinese immigrants building the railroads.

Um, and what was popular at the time was that. You would make your money in America and, and then you would have enough money saved up to like, take care of your family. Mm-hmm. But like the wife and kids would be like sitting in Hong Kong, like, you know, doing that. Um, but my great-great-grandfather was successful doing that.

And then his son, my great-grandfather wanted to follow my him in his footsteps. And that time when he was trying to come to America was the Chinese exclusion Act. Right. So like, Leland Stanford, the governor of California, like banned Chinese people, um, which I think is like the only explicit like race ban in American history.

Wow. So he had to literally [00:29:00] got blocked at the border and then he went to Mexico and then he died of tuberculosis in Mexico. Mm. Wow. So my grandfather grew up with a single mom in Hong Kong, like hustling. Wow. Right. And then World War II happened and all that stuff. And I think he was like an airplane mechanic for like the war and.

And on my mom's side, right? Like they're just getting like blown up by like, the Japanese were invading China, so they're like getting, you know, like you just hear like the war stories. I'm like, I'm like, tell me these stories. Like, he was a kid. And like, so my, my mother's side grandfather had like a story for like, their whole village was captured and they were like getting marched away.

And you know, there's obviously just like, I think that generation of Chinese people had like, really just obvi, like Japanese were like killing all of them, right? Hmm. And there's like this one Japanese soldier that like, he was like gonna run and they like, they locked eyes and they like, like, like the Japanese soldier didn't kill him.

And he was like, I'm like, fuck. Like that's the stuff that my ancestors were, grew [00:30:00] up dealing with. And I just gotta like do some business negotiations. I just have to record this video. Yeah. So like, and I think all of us have those like ancestral stories. Mm-hmm. And I think there's so much power to them 'cause.

Like your stress is like, oh, I gotta pay taxes. Or like, oh, I like, these are pretty trivial economic problems that can be solved with just a little bit of brain power. Like no one's trying to kill you. Mm-hmm. And, and I think that if you just remind yourself that in the scale of problems of humans, if no one's trying to kill you right now, we're like a very rare scarce l like level of op optionality.

Mm-hmm. Right? Like, we get to do this. Yeah. It is like fun. Yeah. No one's trying to kill us today. Mm-hmm. You, we don't do, you don't think about that at all. Mm-hmm. So to me it's like, if that is where all of our ancestors came from, I feel like we're, we sh we have not just like the opportunity, but the [00:31:00] responsibility to just have this free role and play really, really hard.

Mm-hmm. So that like, that like spine of like, hey, when it's like someone's mean, or like, someone's like hard to negotiate, it's like, dude, I don't give a fuck. No one's trying to, are you trying to kill me? No. Then all right. I can deal with it. Like, that's literally my mindset. Yeah. I mean, dude, I feel like you're speaking of something that I fear, like just this idea of heritage and truly appreciating the lineage that you came from Yeah.

Is something that if you, if you understand the sacrifices that were like people in your lineage bore to get you where you are today, you'll always be able to tap into that. Yeah. That'll be a forever Well, that you can go back to and pull from. Yes. And I fear that, um, just like the, almost, it almost seems like design destructuring of the nuclear family will potentially erode that.

That reverence and that that love for like where you came from. Yeah. And one of the things like I've gotten into, you [00:32:00] know, like the book of Matthew starts off with genealogy. Yeah. And I think it start, it's the first book of the New Testament. And it starts that way for a reason. It starts by building this narrative around where you came from.

Yep. I think it's super important to tap into that as a person, as an entrepreneur. Like knowing where you come from is a source of strength. Yeah. I mean, I think there just two things I wanna riff on that. So like, I, like I consider myself like a fifth generation American, just 'cause like my great-great-grandfather came here.

Right? So I feel like a lot of like our family just like believe in the American dream, right? Like there's a reason why they truck their butt over from across the Pacific Ocean to get here. Mm. Um, and there's something special about America and then two. The postmodern deconstruction of the nuclear family.

I don't think it's like necessarily malicious. Right? Like when you talk to them, like, I think they're true believers that, hey, maybe we can reinvent better family structures. Maybe this gender ideology stuff is, you know, we wanna, I [00:33:00] think they think it comes from a place of like, intelligence and good. I think they try to be nice to people, but I think there's a hard reality that sometimes being nice is not correct.

Being nice to cater towards. Like, I, I think I, I, I think it's another way. It's like there's some models that just work better, like western civilization, and I think American culture works better than other cultures. And I think there's like a fear to say that. Hmm. It's like, why does everyone wanna come here?

Because it's better. Yeah. Yeah. And people, and it's like we, and sometimes in, in certain circles, you can't say that. It's like, no, every culture is great. And it's like. Okay. Like no. Mm. It's like, it's like factually wrong. Yeah. In terms of like output and productivity and progress in terms of technology. Mm.

But if, but I, but I'm not the one say, Hey, I prescribe this way of thinking or living to everybody else. It's like it's compete. If you really think your model of the [00:34:00] world of how this structure of civilizations is better make us such a brilliant civilization that I want to join. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Just don't like try to like lobby me or try to like force me to do stuff that I don't believe in.

Yeah. Do you feel like part of the reason why you were such a good student in high school, like, did your parents push you hard based on these different generations of you being an, you know, your family being immigrants in the United States and that work ethic being pushed on you? Or was it something more intrinsic?

Maybe it was a combination of nature versus nurture, but I'm just curious. Yeah, like I think there's like the tiger mom stereotype, which I think. I don't, I don't, I wouldn't say I was like, pushed that hard. I think I remember like, but I would say that like, I got provided a lot of just material. I remember that when I was like 3, 4, 5, like my grandparents would bring like Chinese math textbooks and I would just like, they're like, just do 'em.

Yeah. And I was just like a kid, I, I was like, okay, [00:35:00] I'll like learn how to do multiplication and stuff. And I was like four. And it was like, I was just like, you know, so like, what is multiplication? It's like eight times eight. It's not you, you kinda memorize it's 64, but it's just also, you just add eight, eight times.

Right. So you just like, kind of like, and I think that when you're 3, 4, 5, maybe that's like cognitively you're ready for that. Hmm. And I remember like for algebra, it's like, oh, like there's letters now, but is that supposed to be an eighth grade material? Like, I don't know. Hmm. But if you're just like, Hey, you just have a variable in your math calculations, maybe you should be able to learn it.

So like, I skipped, so like. I think a lot of it, just like I just got provided materials and no one was like, Hey, this is super advanced, this is super hard. This is like, you're beyond your level. I was just like kind of doing it for fun. So I think there was, so to me it was always like a, had an availability of the material to learn and look at, but it was never like, I wasn't like, hey, like getting [00:36:00] slapped around to like study math textbooks or anything.

Yeah. Like in fact, I was like always a better reader in, in some sense. So like I was doing all these, uh, I dunno if there's like still a thing, but like you can take SATs when you're in middle school to get to like these like, like scholarship type things. So I had like the highest SAT score in eighth grade.

I got a 1590 outta 1600 on SAT as an eighth grader. And it was like, I got perfect on the reading and I, I missed the question on the math. So it was like, to me, I, I was also just, I had read a lot. I, I always won like the. Local library reading list for summer. Like you get like a sticker or something for reading.

Again, I didn't care about like getting a sticker, I was just like, read all the books because it was fun. I was like, so, so to me it was just like, I think I had this like a natural curiosity to learn stuff. Um, and then I think my parents were pretty good at just like providing like the availability of the resources to do it.

And then I think as I got a little bit older, 'cause my dad was an entrepreneur, it, it just seemed like it was [00:37:00] possible because I remember talking to other kids, parents around startups or they were like all like doctors or engineers, like just they didn't know how to start a business. But like I grew up just like hearing my dad talk about real estate or just different deals and I was like, okay, this is normal.

Yeah. So then now looking back, it just, I think it's just important. Just like not put limiters on kids. That's probably like the main thing that I could see. Yes. Hmm. The, oh, go ahead. No, I was just gonna say like, I feel like what I, what I'm hearing you talk about is that there was like almost no points of friction for you doing the things that you were good at.

And so like your ability to compound that skill and become a master was just only amplified by your pure joy of like, being good at something. Yeah. Which I honestly feel like all kids are capable of, of tapping into that to some level. If, if they have the right encouragement and the right like level of like, you know, you know, keep going at that.

Yeah. Or, you know, [00:38:00] um, you know, everyone has unique, you know, capabilities. Um, and I, I just feel like a lot of people get stuck and, um, if you can just like find the joy in per pushing through that, like it can just, like, as a young kid, you can become very intelligent just through enjoying it. Yeah. And I would say the only thing that.

I would push on now as not as, we're all not kids anymore. Is that why even stop yourself from a kid level curiosity, right? Like, we all have the same amount of time. Why don't you just like try to revert back to like, Hey, I just wanna like learn shit and do shit. Yeah. So I think that's like, I think a lot of the folks I think about now, which is that never let have that kid in you get beaten out.

Obviously we have much more responsibility obligations, but like just try to revert back to like, hey, like this is like fun. This is cool. I wanna just like dig in and really think about this and like really master this skill. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think very few of us, at a certain point you're just like, clock in.

[00:39:00] Mm-hmm. Like you don't think about mastery anymore. You don't think about excellence anymore. You just think about like what is like the lowest, most efficient way to like get the bag and then do the next thing. So. I think just, just reminding yourself, like what were those things that, that you could just like, like, because I don't know, I was like just tinkering with watches.

I remember like just like sat there. I was like trying to like open up a watch for like eight hours. I, no one told me to do that. I was just like, oh, like I was kind as a kid. Yeah. Mm. Because like, because you get a little screwdriver, like just fucking around, like opening the stuff up and we could again, like I think it's a luxury of time.

Maybe you like, we don't have that as much time to do that anymore, but you can try to reinstall some of that time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like you recognizing, hey, for whatever reason God kind of blessed you with this ability to be like a natural tinker. Like where does that come from? We don't know. He just gave it to you.

Yeah. So can you kind of like replace these cheaps? That's what I'm trying to do now in my life is how do I replace these cheaper sources of dopamine to just like listen and be and [00:40:00] tinker and do the things that I've wanted to do since I was a kid. But society beats that outta me a little bit. Yeah. And that was part of the undertone of my question earlier was.

Like, I feel like if you're a parent, if you can get your kid to almost humbly understand this mental model of like, when you know what you want and you can almost, almost like bend the world a little bit to, to your hopes and your dreams. It's like we all have that as kids. We lose it. And then ideally you gain that back.

Imagine if you just had that from the time you were a kid and you just never lost it, how good your life would be. Yeah. I think that is ideal. A hundred percent. I think you just, I think it's well said. Yeah. Don't lose it. Yeah. Or if, if you've lost it, like figure out how to get it back. Yes. I mean, not much more to say other than that.

Right. It just, I, I, yeah. I, I think it's like, why is that exist? I think capitalism is not designed for individual happiness. Mm-hmm. It's designed for overall system efficiency. So I think it is like some of a structural problem that like forces everyone to Cox. Like why 'cause specialized [00:41:00] specialization of labor, right?

Like, I just need you to make this widget really, really fricking well, because otherwise I'm gonna swap it to like a. A another person in a different country with like less labor laws. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think that is like the underlying pressure, and I think it's, it's fine for a societal comp competitiveness, but like we're individuals.

Mm-hmm. So how do you think about like, how do you want to play within this like, macro pressure of, of how civilization is constructed? Mm-hmm. So that's, I think like the intellectual way of just thinking about, okay, like why is this even happening? Mm-hmm. Is there some like evil mastermind being like, like I, I don't ascribe to like, you know, like some deep state person that's controlling the president.

Right. I think that is just like a very naive way to look at all the conspiracy stuff. I think it's just like, they're just like systems and incentives. Just have a lot of momentum and you need to just be really, really deliberate to like change it. Hmm. Right. Not to go overly get into politics. Right. But I think what the Trump [00:42:00] administration is doing, like they have very high conviction to change the status quo.

And it's like, it takes a lot of effort to do that, but like, yeah, we're not talking about like nation state level stuff. It's like, how do you do that for yourself? Mm. It's like, I think is much more tractable for any individual and then for people building companies, right? Like you can have your little purview in your little domain.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. You, you're making me think of a tweet that I, I tweeted the other day, which is, um, people underestimate the physics of business and I feel like that can be applied to just basically like any societal structure. Like there's just. Forces that are unseen, that are working, and you kinda need to just understand those different mechanics and the different equations of those, those forces.

And like how can you play on the right side of those physics equations? Yeah. And that reminds me like, I think, um, and this gets in like some, some more Eastern philosophy and like Zen Buddhism or like Taoism, right? Like there are just like flows and like a lot of what eastern philosophy is just like [00:43:00] you go with the flow of the universe.

Like you go with the path of the universe. And I think there's like something to that, to, to your point, that there are just like physics of capitalism, physics of the economy that we're in. And you can find yourself, if you can put your boat closer and closer into like the swells of where things are going.

Like the universe pushes you. Mm. Yeah. So I think it's like, but again, like your, your default is that your. You're in someone else's construct. Right? Right. If you're working at like a big corpo job, right. It's like some guy 17 layers above you is like trying to, is like thinking about this and you're just like some random little nodule on this like big leviathan.

Mm. Yeah. But okay. Which is fine. We all start, gotta start somewhere. But if you can like have the wherewithal to think, okay, how do I place my chips? Where I thi where there's like small eddies where people haven't looked at. Hmm. That's where I would like start looking and thinking about. Hmm. What do you think about this trend of guys that maybe have like a decade of experience working at [00:44:00] working these big CPO jobs, deciding to opt outta the system and buy these kind of like unsexy businesses that are like printing cash, like contractor businesses, just like these small businesses.

I feel like that's a trend that's kind of started. Yeah. Post covid. How do you think about that? Yeah, I think these are hard. Um, I think there's like this like operating thesis, like the gray tsunami, like all of these, like service businesses, labor businesses are owned by like, these, like boomers who are about to retire.

So like, there's like a private equity type play to like start looking at some of these cashflow businesses. Um, but then it's like, do you actually wanna run a laundromat? I feel like that's like a popular meme that like some influencer pushing. It's like, like you, like running a laundromat is fucking hard work.

Mm. Like the shit breaks, like people steal, people fuck up your laundromat. Like, and you gotta market the laundromat, right? Like there's a lot of like actual brass tacks, like roll up sleeves, blue [00:45:00] collar stuff involved with all of this stuff. Um, and like, what is like the value. In these businesses, like to me, like the value of those businesses is not just the Rolodex of customers, but also like the owner's relationship with all the customers.

Right. Like I'm sure with like, I think for 90% of businesses without like the core founders, which like carry the brand, carry the relationships, carry the, like the customer love, these are very brittle, almost valueless businesses. Hmm. So I think you have to be eyes wide open to know what you're signing up for.

Right. Like there's SBA loans, different financing, that's all tools. Yeah. Like, you gotta be like, Hey, I'm gonna run the best fricking laundromat in my town and I gotta think about like how I can like scan and replicate this. Mm-hmm. So maybe if laundromats are like your, something there's some angle or some like connection to that.

Great. Uh, and not necessarily [00:46:00] my interest area, but. I, I think that's like what I think people need to like really like be eyes wide open. Like if you're gonna, like, this is not like you buy a laundromat and it's free cash flow. It's like a million dollars a year. Mm-hmm. No, like it's not a, it's not a coupon that just prints up money.

Mm. Like you gotta like get into the laundromat. Yeah. And if you're not doing it, someone else's ripping, ripping you off. Mm-hmm. I think that's a shift in the zeitgeist. A lot of people do think it's this money printer and Hey, I'm gonna hire this gm, pay him 80 KA year. I'm gonna sit back in my New York apartment and it's just gonna print and flow cash for me.

I think a lot of people got hurt. Yeah. And I think that's the same thing that happens to all these Airbnb arbitrage people. Oh yeah. Big time. Right? Like, I don't know, I think that's actually like very common that Austin, you know, market like everyone, right? Like you just see like, like the real estate prices here just getting crushed because everyone from New York and California is like, Hey, let me go run a little Airbnb arbitrage.

Yeah. Now it's, I don't know, I think a lot of you guys are gonna, you know, they're, they're gonna go BK on it. Yeah. It seems like kind of like oh [00:47:00] eight, but in like a little bit more of like a micro version. Yeah. Just like encapsulated in the Airbnb play. Um, I'm curious, what does your decision making matrix look like?

How do you balance the art in the science of making business decisions? I think, I think that like, there's like just different stages. I think for me right now, like I, I, a theme that I constantly think about is doing fewer things with like a small group of people and just going super hard. Um, why? It's like most of the value is on, on the tell outcomes, right?

Like running this laundromat is, you probably have to work as hard as Zuckerberg, right? Like, yeah. Like running like a, like a food truck is probably as hard as running a SaaS business. So. Like, but what is the value of the terminal value of that asset? I don't [00:48:00] know. Like for, for a laundromat, you're probably what, selling this for, I don't know, what, six times EBITDA or something for like, if you can sell a software asset for like 10 times Ford revenue, like the amount of economic value can capture is much more durable and much greater.

Mm-hmm. So I think you gotta think about, so like in Silicon Valley, I felt like a lot of learnings I got was just like tech, really cool technology scale really, really quickly. But I felt like over the last few years, just spending a lot more time in Wall Street, like there's something to just like really understanding the finances, the financial engineering, just like the actual terminal value of these assets.

Mm-hmm. And maybe another way to think about it's that like every, everything you do is a trade, right? So what, what I mean by that is. There are straight like quant hedge funds that straight in and outta positions really, really quickly, right? They're holding positions or market makers hold positions for like, you know, 10 seconds or [00:49:00] something.

Um, but on like the super long horizon of things, if you're like starting a company, you're basically like just long 20 years on a position, right? Like, that's another way to think about it as a security, right? Like what is like terminal cash flow? What, what, how you can underwrite these things to like an actual asset versus like thinking about it as like, as like a, like a startup thing.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I think a lot about terminal value and like, what is the terminal value of the security? Mm. So if you have, like, so that, that helps just like frame the, again, what are we doing this for? Like, uh, like I'm doing this from like, the, the primary goal of a for-profit corporation is to make money.

Mm-hmm. Right? So like, you gotta just like decide what your goals are. I, I think a lot of people don't actually decide what their goals are. It's like, do you want to. Have a cool story. Do you want to have like a cool content channel? Do you wanna make a lot of money? I think like do you wanna self-actualize on like a journey?

Yes. I think it's like a lot of it's like [00:50:00] all of it, or vaguely all of it. I think for me it's like, for business here to fucking make money. Mm-hmm. And just like, don't even like, know, not even ashamed about it. Mm. For co like, but for my like, feel good stuff, I'm gonna just do free content. Right. Like, that's why people are like, oh, you should charge co charge courses or whatever.

And it's like, I'm not, I'm just doing this for fun. Like, this is not, this is not where I wanna make money. Mm-hmm. But like for the businesses, I'm here to make money. Yes. So I think it's like being very, very clear insights of your end terminal goal and then you construct the business to match that goal.

Hmm. So I think a lot of people don't think about that clearly enough. Hmm. I, I love, um, it kind of ties back into what you were saying earlier about solving for distribution. Um, like it makes the initial stages of so many like hoops that you're gonna have to jump through so much easier if you solve that one big problem.

And then you can just almost have fun with, you know, putting the right team in [00:51:00] place, finding the right product. You know, raising money becomes easier when you have channels to push different products through. Yep. Um, yeah, j just you, you reminded me of just that the importance of understanding distribution is potentially just like the best first thing to solve for Yeah.

And then work backwards. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think that's like, yeah, if you, again, it goes back to like first principles, like, okay, you have capital, you have attention. It's like, okay, if you consult for attention, capital will follow. Yes. So I think you just try to just reverse engineer, like, what is the scarcest asset that you can marshal?

And then use that to like allocate more and more resources behind you. Mm-hmm. Yes. So like, and I think, you know, I think Elon is again a very like known example, but I think it's like a very interesting that. He only solves like civilizational type problems and no one has the balls to even do it, but the capital follows 'cause he has like, he's building track record momentum behind it.

So I think that's like a very edge case of what that is. But I think for like the general like young [00:52:00] person starting off, right? Like I would say attention is something that's like, probably like max optionality. But I would say that it's hard to convert that into business if it's just like so broad, right?

Like I don't want to like lead people astray being like, okay, just like get viral. I think the viral people come and go. I've seen so many like, and it, and this is like, I think seen through the lens of Jake, right? Like he just has seen so many fricking viral kids blow up, disappear, nothing. Mm-hmm. Right?

So I think attention and distribution is a very valuable asset. But I think you need to like think again, think about like where you wanna bend that towards. So it's like attention in a specific area is very, very, I would say like that's like the nuance to it. Mm. Like just getting viral for no reason.

Yeah. Like, I don't know, there's like only fans, people that are way more famous than all of us. Combined times a hundred. It's like. Yeah, that's great for cash flow for her, [00:53:00] but okay. Like how do you channel that? Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a pretty short duration bond. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Like content creation with an end goal in mind.

And so for you, you're, you're, now, are you chairman of KE and iq? Yes. Is that your title now too? Yes. I feel like you're an awesome example of really looking at, hey, every decision I make has a benefit and a cost. So I'm sure there was part of you that could have stayed super, super in the weeds. And I, I feel like your role at Keyston IQ is really playing to your strengths and starting anti fund and what you're doing with Better and w and all these other brands and you're probably driving way more value for Keyston IQ and you know, getting product in John Jones' hand and doing deals with him and stuff like that.

Yeah. Versus you being married to this concept of like, I have to be super in the weeds and I dunno. I think just understanding where these decisions will lead to and really putting yourself in a position to play to your strengths is so important. I think just for that, I think I've just so lucky to, to have built that business with Michael Brand.

I mean, that guy is the right CEO for the business. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I mean. He's like literally runs half marathons every day. Right. So it's just [00:54:00] like, that's our core demographic. That's where like that core high performance energy starts from. Right? So it's like, what is a better human to personify that? Yes.

Guy's literally like crushing half marathons every single morning. It's like, okay, that is like the right persona Yes. To like lead. Um, and I think, and I think we just built like a really, really strong executive team. I mean, I think every single person, every single executive is just world class of what they do.

Like Alyssa's like crushing on retail. Michael Lee on, on the CMO seat. Amazing. Kira on like the business development. Like, so like I think, I feel like we just got like really world class operators in each of the key seats of that business. Um, and then like, yeah, where is that? Where can you uniquely contribute to the overall mission?

And I think to that point, it's like capital, it's like some of the broader network. So like, yeah. So like, I think. You know, we'll be making like a, a large announcement with John Jones hopefully very, very soon. So it get a little bit teaser here. [00:55:00] Um, but like those are the things that I think are one fun for me personally, but also to your, to your point, I think uniquely fits like the current skillset and network that I have.

Yes. It was very cool for us. 'cause we got last minute tickets to Expo West from one of our investors. Yeah. We're like, well let's just go for Noble and walk the floor and meet people in seeing the key to an IQ booth, the difference in terms of the way that you guys are thinking versus a lot of these other CPG brands where.

I remember the ketones IQ screen. It was really focused on like virality impressions, the social media following the influencers you were working with. And I'm thinking from a retail buyer perspective, 'cause that's why you're there, right? Is you're building relationships with retailers like the, the way that that's gonna get them thinking of, Hey, this brand has such a large reach on social media, what could this potentially do for my store?

And you were probably one of 10 brands that I saw there that were marketing yourselves that way. Yeah. Um, I just think it's so interesting the way that you guys are thinking versus all these other brands that exist. [00:56:00] Yeah. Uh, appreciate the compliment there. And I think, again, a lot of credit to the, the team just like running a really, really tight, efficient playbook.

I mean, I think the way I think about like the whole, I, I think basically marketing changes every two, three years. Like why? It's just that like once playbooks are established, that margin gets arbitraged out. So I think you have to just be comfortable that and accept the fact that your playbooks need to update every year, every two years.

So one, I, I think that's just like a core anchor philosophy for any brand, any business. Like you need to redevelop your marketing playbook every year. So if you accept that, which I don't, I think most people don't even accept that. They're like, oh, I like, I gotta just do this thing that's worked for me for the last 10 years.

But I think that's an opportunity for startups is you, you can take risks and you can move way faster than the Unilevers and Proctor and Gambles. So that is like the opportunity where like people like us should compete and, and [00:57:00] beat them. And I think there's a ample opportunity to do so. Um, and then like what is the meta that I'm seeing currently?

Uh, I think people just like don't know how to buy attention correctly, essentially, right? I think so for me, like one way I like to underwrite and I think podcasts. Podcasts or like a, a very interesting ad format because if you spend $5 million to do a Sydney Sweeney campaign, um, you buy, you have to pay twice.

Meaning that you have to give Sydney Sweeney $5 million and then she doesn't have a social media, she doesn't have like content formats. She's not, she doesn't own her shit. Meaning that like she has no channels that she owns to distribute that like 5 million photo shoot you just bought, you have to then go buy a Super Bowl ad you pay another $10 million and you have to go buy Facebook ads.

You buy TikTok ads. So you buy twice [00:58:00] on the same amount of budget that you could partner with someone with actual distribution and following. Hmm. So I think that's like something that's just like you, you think about just from a math perspective, like, and I think most people just like don't understand that like I.

You need to think about people that actually own distribution channels that they control. Like they think celebrities have con distribution channels, but Sydney Sunni can't talk to you. I don't even know if she has an Instagram or not. Mm-hmm. Like, have you seen her talk? I, I, I don't, I'm not necessarily her.

I don't know if her, like in her demographic. Yeah. Yeah. But like, but she doesn't, yeah. So that, that's her, like, she's like super famous superstar, but she, you, you don't even know what she talks about. Yeah. Because she's a face. Yeah. Like Hollywood, you know, whatever manager or campaign person, like controls what she says.

Mm. So I think that's like how you need to think about underwriting. It's like, try to, don't pay twice. Find people that have the right face, right language. And [00:59:00] also the distribution. Right? Like, that's like definitely like a meta to think about. Mm. I love it. Are you long-term bullish on podcasting? It seems like in this election cycle, it was just so important to the ultimate outcome.

Do you feel like that's gonna continue to play out? Uh, it's just decentralization of information. I think. You think first principles, like, I don't, I don't care about the formats per se. Just that like, no one gives a crap who Cn CNN puts in the seat. Like, who are the anchors now? I have no idea. Yeah. No one cares.

No one cares. Like, you just want to hear what like Tucker says or what Joe Rogans it is. Like, so to me it's not the format, it's just the, the institutional brands have shifted. Like the best New York Times writers run their own substack and their own channels. Mm-hmm. So I think that's gonna be the tension.

It's just, uh, ultimately what is the value? It's, is it the brand or is it the human? Yeah. And then the humans have their own brands now. Yeah. So that's the way I [01:00:00] think about it. It's not format, it's just who, who is the who, who is the better brand reputation. Mm-hmm. And I think New York Times and a lot of, some of these legacy brands like are just, have leaked so much value in their brands.

Hmm. So I think that's like the, that's, that's the frame, I think about it. Yeah. Love it. One of the last things we want to ask you before we get you outta here is, uh, we just talked about, you know, your perspective from a brand standpoint, from an investor standpoint. I'm just curious, how often do you get pitched and what things do you look for that actually get you excited and get you outta bed to wanna pursue that opportunity?

Uh, I think, yeah, very fortunate to have, you know, anti fund. Um, we have about, we haven't really talked about this publicly, but I like we north of 50 million in a UM in terms of assets. Um, we're pretty active. Um, and I think it's one of those things where it's like,

like Jake has so much flow, but it's [01:01:00] all dog shit. Yeah. But like, there's some, but, but there, there's some, definitely some diamonds in the rough in there, but like, yo, it's like every little kid is like, ah, you know, so you just get a lot of rick and noise. Um. So I think in the venture game it's, I think it's all about taste and selection.

And then I think sec and sub of that is, do you have the right, like ownership and concentration to like, actually again, I, I think cap again, it goes back to like, uh, or like anchor thesis. I think we're more capital abundant than, than, uh, time and energy scarce. So I think to us, like there's, like, basically I think, I think two buckets of four we focused are time.

Um, I think for anything on the technology side, like you have to keep updating on like what's, what's on the bleeding edge. So we've done a lot of AI deals. I dunno if you've heard of like cognition. It's like the first software engineer, ai, so we're investors in that and [01:02:00] drill some of these like big defense tech names.

Um, so we like those positions that are basically consensus number one winners in super, super large markets. Hmm. I think those are like gonna keep compounding, right? I think Underworld is gonna like, it's, it's, it, it works. It's going to work. Hmm. Um, so if you can get allocation in there, right? Like PI get spam all the time, people trying to buy our shares for like, you know, five x markup or whatever, right?

So it's just like, so that's like one bucket. And then I think the other area is like consensus consumer winners as well. Mm-hmm. Right? We were investors at Ali Pop at two 50 mil. I think JP Morgan led around at like 1.8 billion and Poppy is sold. So I think that's like a very, very good comp for us as well.

Um, again, like number one, number two brand in the consensus winner in like a large, large market. So I think in terms of then again, reverse engineering, like what is our, what, what do we like, what are we focused on? Um, like it has to be, you have to see a path to be a number one, number two player in a large [01:03:00] market.

Mm-hmm. Um, and I think, I think most people don't think about the markets enough. Like if it's just like you're gonna be the number one local farmer selling like the best terms in the world, but you only have like, you know, you're only selling to people in Austin. I mean, that could be a sick business.

It's not really investible. Mm-hmm. So again, I think you need to understand the financial returns and like what venture capital should be deployed for before pitching. Mm-hmm. And maybe like, this is a pro tip. I think one thing that I think people, founders don't do well enough is that VCs are here to make money off your business.

Right. I think a lot of entrepreneurs are like, oh, VCs are gonna be like my life coach. No, like VCs want to package you to their LPs, which give them the money to invest in you to be like, yo, we're gonna all make a lot of money together. Right, right. Not to say that they're [01:04:00] super like vulture capitalists, but like, you gotta remember like VCs are there to make money.

Yeah. It's a trade. It's a trade. Yeah. And I think it's, again, it's, I think this like, oh, like it all these VC firms are super founder friendly. Oh, we're just gonna give you money and mentorship. Like, no, no, no. Like you don't, if you don't make them money, you get fucking cut. Right. Yeah. So I think the pro tip that I would say is that you need to like show a business plan in a forecast that's gonna be a guaranteed three x.

Obviously like risky, you're not gonna always hit plant, all that stuff. But as a someone pitching, you gotta like show a story where like, if a, B, C works, I'm gonna make three extra money in like a couple years. Mm-hmm. And then you need to have, and that's not, I don't think that's good enough anymore. And then you have to have a story for like, and if A, B, CD, EF also work, Anna make 10 x your money.

Mm-hmm. And I think it has to be a very [01:05:00] financial oriented story. Hmm. The best VCs are all bean counters. Hmm. Like, I think, again, I think it's all marketing where they're like, oh, we're, we're super friendly. We're gonna life coach, you gonna mentor you. I think there's some like benefit of like the y commenters to be like super, like almost collegial feel.

Yeah. But you think about their financial product, they index all of Silicon Valley. Yeah. They own 7% of all these companies for like $125,000, which mm-hmm. Which is dirt fucking cheap valuation. Right. So you had to like, I know like Gary Tan's like a homie, right? He, he runs Y Combinator, um, he's not doing it as a charity.

He's their, that thing is printing fucking money. Yeah. Right. So you gotta think beyond like the marketing into like, okay, what is actual incentive of Y Combinator? They own 7% of every single. They index all top Silicon Valley startups. That's a great financial product. Right. So, okay. So like, how do you weaponize it?

You gotta come in and talk in the language of VCs, which is financials, multiples and, and [01:06:00] money. And then you have like your vision, your, your, your founder market fit. You have to have all of that, which I think people are well trained about. Yeah. But people forget it's a money making business. Hmm. Yeah. Y commoner is a be a beautiful example of this virtuous flywheel where it's like you can kind of be the wolf in sheep's clothing, like doing a good thing, but also know that you are gonna be getting a pound of flesh in some of these businesses and able to make good returns on it.

Yeah. Like, that's how the business actually has to operate. I, it's like you, you, you buy 7% for 120 5K. That implies a, like a 1.7 million valuation for a company. Yeah. Which arguably high, arguably very low for like some of these founders who like. Have literally are millionaires from being like open AI engineers.

Right? Yeah. Right. And it's like, I think a lot of the best people don't like that. Take that product again, you gotta, you gotta treat it as like a product. Right? I think the brilliance of the marketing is that it feels like it's like a fellowship or like a college program where like y comer is like a badge of honor.

Right? [01:07:00] You're so, you're trading cheap equity for prestige. Yeah. So I think that's something I'm, I, I am very sensitive to when something is prestigious and you're buying it, you're paying for it. Right? Like, why am I paying 99% co like, gross margin on an Italian leather product? I am buying that logo mm-hmm.

To put on me. 'cause I think it signals well. Mm-hmm. So, so I think it goes back to just like, okay, what is the trade that I'm doing? And I think Y Combinator is best in the world at branding early stage, like very, very expensive equity. Yeah. For like, Hey, you gotta Y Combinator or badge on you. Okay. Like, that's like saying, Hey, you're buying a Louis Vuitton bag.

Mm-hmm. Now, like you're cooler. Right. It's kind of the same trade. Yeah. Yeah. It's like paying out the ass for like a CTO free designation on your bag. Right. To showcase that you're healthy. Yeah. And people will pay a premium for it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Do you find with all the deal flow, you're getting, uh, simpler decks that you could just open as a [01:08:00] PDF on your phone?

Is that better? I think, yeah. I think I, I mean, to me it's like, almost like show me, like basically show me some financials. Like if your numbers are working, then it's like the baseline to start a conversation. Like, show me that you're actually running a business. Mm-hmm. Right. Like I, I, again, there are different models where it's like, okay, like let me go life coach people, but like that I don't have enough time to life coach random people.

Mm-hmm. So I think the, the best companies actually have the numbers to justify. Like their, their vision. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So to me it's like, okay, you like if maybe you're pre-launch, but like, show me that you've done stuff. Mm-hmm. And how do you show you've done stuff? Like, don't show me like a comp of like an app wire flow.

Like literally people are vibe coding weekends and building apps with like customers in a weekend. Right. So you can't show me like mocks of like your design of [01:09:00] your CPG, like at least show me like a bunch of presales or something. Right. Like show me that you're thinking about it in a financial way because like when it gets real, we're talking money.

Right. I'm trying to be a business partner to you, not your life coach. Yes, a hundred percent. Well dude, this has been great. We appreciate it. Um, should we take a ketones IQ shot before we get outta here? Yeah, we're some juice. We're tight on time, but appreciate you coming on. Yeah, no, this is, this is a fun conversation guys.

How is this podcast for you? Based on some of the other ones that you've been on too? I haven't been on podcasts recently, so this is like. This is great. Yeah, we just wanted to just tell the audience, like, just showcase the audience a little bit more about how you think about the world too. Yeah. Because there have been so many good episodes about, you know, ketones and low carb and Yeah.

Just a little bit different. Yeah. No, I feel like Appreciate that. Appreciate you, brother. Great seeing you, man. Chances. Yep. Cheers. Cheers, bro. Yep.

Oh, the peach one coffee. What you guys have done with the flavor [01:10:00] on this is, is actually awesome. Yeah. Credit the Susan and Chrissy, like they're, they're magicians of the product. They really are. Yeah. The green apple's great too. Yeah. But appreciate you brother. Thanks man. Thanks, Jeff. Great seeing you, man.

Thanks brother.