#401 Scott Hatch: Hearing God in a Distracted World

Copy of 2025-04-24_1 FINAL
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[00:00:00] Sweet. Ryan's the man. It is a little warm in here. It's gonna be hot. We might need to keep it to it.

He just gave us the thumbs up. Okay. I like to do just like a casual start so it, it doesn't sound too awkward. Okay. Alright. Usually we do like a, a clap for the edit, but I like to just run right into it, so, okay. Cool. Cool. Scott, dude, you were on, we just looked at it over two years ago, which is, it's honestly crazy.

I'm an OG baby. You're, you're an g I'm an OG mafia guy. I'm an OG mafia guy, so anyone who's listening, Scott was on episode 1 46. Um, Scott and I have an incredibly special relationship. He's one of my best friends here in town. Let's go. Legend. Uh, we had the pleasure of serving together. Uh, he's my pastor and has just been so influential in my life, so I'm so stoked to have you on.

Uh. [00:01:00] Just to go a little bit deeper, talk about what you're up to. Um, show the good word. So thanks for joining us. Well, dude, it's, uh, it's an honor to be invited back on the show. I wasn't sure after my first one, you know, I thought maybe, uh, but, uh, no, it's good to be back and, uh, to hear you say those kind words, that's, that just, uh, it means the world to me.

But let me say that, uh, man, I feel, uh, the same affection for you, Harry. I see. Mm. God's hand is on your life. And it's been so incredible just watching you learn to, uh, to run in the faith, not just to walk in the faith, but to run in the faith and to chase after Jesus with everything that you have. And it's just so encouraging to see that, um, as a, as a young guy, as a very talented, smart guy, to see you, um, just really take a hold of, um, the life of faith and chasing after Christ and everything that you do is just so encouraging.

And so to be invited onto this podcast is really quite an honor. Mm. And, um, it's good to be with you and Yeah. I got lots of love for you and Brett and the whole Meet Mafia gang. [00:02:00] Oh, running is how we met. Uh, that's right, dude. That's right. We met out at A-N-V-D-M run. That's right. Um, I was trying to keep up with you.

Oh, dude. We were, we that I don't know. It does seem like a while ago, but we were, bro, we were cooking, we were dice back then. And we were running. Oh yeah. We were, we were quick and now we're Oh yeah. Not quite as fast, you know, I mean like, but we could get there really quickly. It wouldn't be that hard.

Yeah. But, uh, I appreciate you saying that, and it's been such a fun two years. I feel like since we first recorded, I feel like just personally, I've gotten so much deeper in my faith and our friendship and just the, the, um, the Holy Spirit and, and what, what we have really been able to, um. Just build in terms of a friendship.

Like I never really expected when I moved down to Austin, Texas, that I would be able to call my pastor one of my best friends. And it's like, it's, uh, it's special. And, um, you know, I, I wouldn't have expected this to be like a, such a big part of my life here in Austin, but it's [00:03:00] been the biggest blessing.

And, um, we've talked about Faith a bunch on the podcast, and I'm just excited to dive into it more, um, in a more personal way in terms of just like, um, you know, sharing my story a bit, sharing your story, talking about, um, some of the basic teachings of Jesus. I feel like, um, you know, it's, it's easy kind of just, we were talking to 'em beforehand just to gloss over, um, some of these significant historical events, um, particularly, you know, we're recording this the week after Holy week and just mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

You know, what that actually means. So. Absolutely. This is, this is gonna be a really fun podcast. And, um, I wanted to, I wanted to give you some credit too. Episode 1 46, Angie was listening to 1 46 and that's why she, I think, ended up coming down to Thrive. Oh, yeah. So you never know. The power of these podcast is crazy, dude.

Oh, dude. Yeah. Think about that. Like, that's so impactful. You know, it's actually wild. I've had, I've had probably a [00:04:00] dozen people just come up to me in Austin and say, dude, I heard your podcast on Meet Mafia. Just like, just wanted you to know that, um, you know, that impacted my faith. And, uh, you know, it's just keep doing what you're doing.

So, I mean, like, you never know. You never know. You never know. And, um, I mean, it's a testament to you guys that you're, you know, you're spreading the good word, um, on the podcast. So keep up the good work. Appreciate it. So you have been, you've been in Austin for 10 years? Yeah, actually I moved here June of 2014.

We started the church April of 2015. So the church is 10 years old. I've lived here for coming up on 11 years and Thrive has we, we celebrated Easter this past Sunday and you had everyone kind of stand up through who had been there through all the different phases, and I didn't even realize that there was kind of like two, there was like two places that I'd never even heard of.

I was like, I, I know, right? Never heard of that. And, [00:05:00] and um, there's something about I feel like thrive's church, church plant story that's like very gritty and real that I don't think you necessarily get in. Um, some of the other, like, churches out there. Um, I, I might just be kind of, um, generalizing, but I just, I really appreciate how Thrive has come, uh, come to be and just the people that are there.

There's a diversity. Um, there's a lot of different types of people. Uh, I think you said it perfectly this weekend. Uh, you know, there's, there's ex-convicts, there's ex triathletes, um, there's pro triathletes, there's like, there's literally, there's entrepreneurs, dude. There's all sorts of people. Um, which I think is just, it, it's such a testament to what you've got going on.

How does it feel having been at it for 10 years to. You've recently, the last few, few, this month we're celebrating, you know, the 10 year anniversary this week. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And also you getting a [00:06:00] new space. So how does that feel just getting into the new space and kind of marking that new season of thrive?

Well, dude, I, I gotta say like, one of the, like most, one of the things that I have learned the most over the last 10 years of planting a church is just how little I actually know. And I know that it's, it's just like when I moved to Austin, I thought I had the perfect blueprint of how the church was gonna come together.

I thought I had, like, I, you know, I had my five year plan, I had the church planting plan, you know, I had been through classes I'd done, and I just, I just had this vision. I was like, this is what it's going to be. And the last 10 years has been a journey of just learning that. I really have no clue. And that this whole thing is just about being faithful to what God has asked me to do.

Hmm. And to be willing to show up and to wake up every single morning and say, God, I'm here [00:07:00] for it. Whatever it is that you have in store for me, I'm gonna follow you. I'm gonna be obedient to what you are asking me to do. Whatever it looks like, whether it's one person or 100 people, I'm gonna preach with the same fire and the same passion, and I'm still gonna prepare and I'm gonna put the same hours into every single weekend, regardless of the size of the crowd, because I'm gonna do whatever I do.

I'm gonna do it for you and I'm gonna do it with excellence. Mm-hmm. And, uh, but I've learned like along the way that like, you know, things, we have a vision for what we think God's future and plan for us is in our, is in our lives. Mm-hmm. And his vision and his picture is often much different from the one that we imagine.

Mm-hmm. And so like a part of me was like, I thought that I would be where I am now, like eight years ago. Mm-hmm. But there was a process and there was a path that God wanted to take me down so that I could learn some things so that my roots could go deeper in [00:08:00] him, so that I could be prepared for the season that, that, that he is, he's brought us into in the life of the church now.

Mm-hmm. So, I gotta say, it feels really great to be able to say, yeah, we moved to Austin, we started a church from scratch, you know, and now we have a building and yeah, it's, it feels great, but I also believe that we're just getting started. Mm-hmm. Um, this is a new season, that 10 years that was kind of the close of a chapter mm-hmm.

Of being portable and kind of wandering. I'm reminded of the Israelites wandering through the wilderness. They had to set up and tear down the tabernacle everywhere that they went. And then they entered into the promised Land and they became more established. And, uh, it brought with it a whole new set of challenges, but also a whole new set of opportunities and, um, you know, so I'm really, really excited about this next season that we are in.

Mm-hmm. As you're going into like, just those seasons where your faith is, um, being [00:09:00] formed and tested through just the trials and tribulations of set up, tear down, new building, new spot, people leaving the church, uh, church growing, church shrinking. Do you look like, are you, do you look into that? Like when in your prayer time are you like, you know, I, I I can imagine you saying like, God, what are you doing here?

Hmm. But is there, is there a thought behind that that's deeper? Like, you know, that, that you wrestle with or you just kind. I'm just curious, like, you know, what, what was the, the, the tools that you kinda leaned on during those periods? That's a really great question. I mean, I feel like, um, throughout the entire season, the importance of just communion with Jesus has been absolutely essential because there have been lots of setbacks, there have been lots of trials, there have been lots of, you know, um, things that didn't go the way that we thought that they [00:10:00] were going to go.

And so, and you know, it's in those seasons where it's so important to be tapped into the voice of God, hearing from the Lord, hearing what he is guiding you into and what he is calling you into. Because, yeah, I mean, um, there were definitely lots of bumps and bruises along the way and there are definitely lots of bumps and bruises in front of us and.

So I think like the most important thing is just staying tapped into the voice of God and cultivating that daily, inner life with Jesus. Um, where you are regularly hearing from him, because I say this all the time and I mean it, um, obedience is success. So, and I believe that this is definitely for pastors, but it's, I think it's for any Christ follower, like the true definition of success is obedience to Jesus.

To say, to be able to get to the end of your life and stand before Jesus and have him here have him say to you, well done. My good and [00:11:00] faithful servant like that is success to me, but how are you going to know what obedience is if you are not hearing from the Lord? So it's, you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely.

So it's so important, like, because you could be really good at things that God isn't even asking you to do. You could be gritting out and be just toughing out something that God's not even asking you to do. Yeah. You know what I mean? So you wanna make, make sure that you're hearing from the Lord whatever it is that he's asking you to do.

And for me, it's like, God, if, if you're asking me to endure the ups and downs of like, startup church and, um, you know, go through those difficult seasons, if that's what you're inviting me into Mm. Then I'm, I'm willing to do it. I'm willing to do whatever you ask me to do. Mm. You know, but if, if it's not, then you know, I want to know that.

Right. And throughout this entire season, this entire, uh, time of planting church, planting the church, and seeing [00:12:00] ups and downs and some of the people that were closest to us leave, and then of course enduring the coronavirus pandemic, which was just crazy, right? Mm-hmm. People leaving the church over like the stupidest of things.

Sorry. I mean, we're, we're five years out, so I can just say that now. But it's just like, there's enough space in between the dumbest things people were leaving the church over and, um, but like, you know, all throughout it, just hearing God say, I want you to stay the course. Mm. You know, I mean, there've been so many opportunities other churches calling, Hey, come do this, come do that.

Right. And, you know, you go through a setback and maybe a very influential person in your church leaves or a very, a person you invested a lot of time and energy into, and they leave and then here comes a call from another church and it's like, wow, that seems like that would be so much easier over there.

Maybe that, but the Lord always has just, just stay the course, stay the course. And the Lord spoke something to me really, [00:13:00] really strongly. And this was, this was a word that the, the Lord spoke personally to me, and he's, he's actually repeated it to me over and over again throughout this process. But a word he's spoken to me, he said, Scott, you know.

Weak leaders run when it gets hard. Strong leaders stay planted. What do you want to be? Do you want to, you can run and you can go and you can explore these upper, you can do all that stuff. Or you can stay and you can, you can go deeper. You can let your roots go deeper. Which one do you want to be? Do you want to, do you wanna run or do you wanna stay planted?

And do you wanna stay the course? And you know, the answer for me is always the same. Now, does that same word apply to every single person in every single situation? No. But for me, when there's a lot of easy options besides gritting it out with like a church plant, you know, um, that word has spoken to me and it's, you know.[00:14:00]

Whatever God invites me into, I'm down for it. You know what I mean? It's, it's interesting hear you say that. 'cause I don't think, like you're talking about like a temptation to like stray from the path that you've been set on by God and mm-hmm. I think you compared it to the Israelites before, like they were kind of to the point where they were ready to go back.

They wanted to go back, they wanted to go back. Slavery, Egypt to slavery. Egypt seems better. Yeah. Let's go back to slavery. Egypt. This seems better than this wandering around stuff. At least we know what we have there, right? Yeah. Um, could you, I feel like we could do a whole podcast on the hearing from God, but can you just unpack that a little bit?

I think that there's probably a secular person in the room who's like hearing from God that sounds like, that sounds crazy. Or there's Christians in the room who maybe, um, need to be equipped more to have that, that relationship to the point where they actually are hearing from God and they know that they're actually.

Hearing from God. So I'd be curious to, to unpack that a bit. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, [00:15:00] um, you know, when I think about the voice of God, I kind of think about it in two ways. I think about the voice of God that radiates throughout all of creation. Like in Genesis it talks about, you know, God said, and there was light, and God said, and there was, you know, the animals and the beast of the field and you know, the fish of the sea, God spoke and it's like this booming, radiating thing.

But then there's also the story of Elijah in One Kings, after Elijah had called down fire from Heaven, you know, he had this powerful encounter with God and then he, he kind of retreats, um, and, uh, he's in this place of where he's questioning everything. Hmm. And he's, he's looking for God. He's trying to hear the voice of God.

And it says that the vo, that God, you know, there was an earthquake, but God wasn't in the earthquake and there was like a tornado, and God wasn't in the tornado. And then there was like this massive fire, but God was not in the fire. And after all of these things, the Lord spoke to him. It says In a gentle [00:16:00] whisper.

In a gentle whisper. And so the voice of God, yes, it booms, it radiates throughout all of creation. And sometimes God speaks like audibly loudly. But more often than not, what I've discovered is that God speaks in a small still voice, in a gentle whisper. Hmm. And I believe that God is constantly trying to speak to all of us.

It's kind of like a, a radio. Hmm. I'm old enough that we had like transistor radios and you had to turn that thing on and it says tune into ffo. You had to tune it in. You had to tune it in, right? Yeah. And you would get static at first, but if you would just tune that frequency, eventually you would tap into the frequency and you would hear the music loud and clear.

Right? The radio waves are always there, but it's a matter of tuning into the right frequency and getting past the static and the noise. Mm-hmm. I think we have a lot of static and a lot of noise in our world today. I think that [00:17:00] we are conditioned to not hear God. Mm-hmm. We are full of distractions. You know, nowadays kids are like being raised on YouTube.

Right. And I mean, it's not just the kids, it's the adults. Like all of us, we have these smart devices that are constantly distracting us. We have all the noise that's going on around us. And I think in our culture today, we have been conditioned to not just. Be still and listen for the small still voice.

Hmm. You know, the psalmist says, be still and know that I'm God. And I think that in our culture today, especially our fast-paced culture like here in Austin, like, we move so fast, everybody's on the grind, everybody's trying to level up or whatever. Mm-hmm. We, we've lost this, the space to just be silent and to listen.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's also this like, consumeristic aspect of the culture that we have in the West [00:18:00] where, um, like there's always a trade off. Like you're always looking for some sort of trade. Mm-hmm. Um, I just feel like God isn't necessarily looking for a negotiation. He is like, um, uh, it's just, it's not necessarily, you know, um, you, you always, you know.

Praying and you're gonna get every prayer answered immediately. Mm-hmm. Like, it's, that's just not how it works. And you're not gonna show up to church every week and hear the perfect message that you, you want to hear sometimes you were needed to hear. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it might make your ear ears bleed, but it's something that you needed to hear.

And, um, I feel like consumerism is definitely an aspect of, um, the, the toxic part parts of, um, our culture that like affect the Christian walk, um, big time. That's a really, really good observation. I think you're exactly right because what that, what that creates inside of us is this sort of like, we see God like a genie in a bottle, or we see God like [00:19:00] this cosmic vending machine that, you know, I'm anxious, therefore I will go to God with this scripture and this prayer, and then, then God Yeah.

Must return peace. Yes. But. What I've learned is that it's more important, like we need to develop a practice of simply communing with God, just to be with God, not to get anything from him. Like imagine having a friend, I imagine having a friend where every time you hung out, you were, you know, looking for something in return.

Exactly. Like, hey, I, I want, I know Scott's got a bunch of money, I want him to pay for dinner. Yeah. Or like, you know, whatever it is. Yeah. It's like that. Wouldn't you always looking for something that wouldn't be your friend for very long? Right. Terrible friend. Yeah. No, nobody wants a friend like that.

Right. Yeah. And I don't understand why we, we treat God that way. And I, I mean, I, I get it. And, um, I think as, as leaders, ministers, [00:20:00] leaders, pastors, sometimes one of the struggles that I face in my own life is like, I'm always trying to prepare and to hear God for other people. Hmm. Right. But it's important that.

When we spend time with the Lord, we commune with him, not for the sake of hearing something for someone else, or even hearing something like that just pertains to our specific thing that we're going through simply to be with the Lord and to hear God, what do you have to say to me like right now? And to have our ears wide open and daily, not just, not just every once in a while, like we need, we need to bring back silence into Christianity.

Yes. Like we need to bring back solitude. We need to bring back this practice of just being in the presence of the Lord. Fascinating. Just fasting prayer you want to talk about like if you're having a hard time hearing from God, like fast, strip [00:21:00] it all down, you know? Yeah, yeah. Because you, you know. Yeah. I mean, really quickly you become aware of your human condition when you start to fast.

Hmm. And, um, but I, I just think that, that, that that practice of daily communing with the Lord and hearing his voice, and then the more you hear his voice, voice, the more you become familiar with it. Mm. And I think like as a person who did not grow up in church, as a person who did not grow up like praying and like trying to hear from God, I was not familiar with the voice of God until later on.

But then later after I became a Christian, I started to understand his voice more and become more familiar with his voice. I started to look back at the years that I wasn't a, a follower of Jesus, and I was like, wait, that was his voice. Mm. He was trying to speak to me. I just didn't recognize it. Mm. It's like, you know, a person that you're very close to, you know their voice.

Yeah. [00:22:00] Right. Mm-hmm. You're familiar with that voice. Like you could be in a crowd and you can hear that voice and it will pierce through the crowd. You'll be like, oh, where's Harry? Like, where's, where's Harry? Where's, you'll know. Yeah. But if I've never had a conversation with you and you are, you're calling out to me.

Well, I may not, I'm not gonna recognize that. And so, like, we have to get familiar with the voice of God. And that only happens through regular, like communion with him. Mm-hmm. Not just Sunday morning only. And I can't rely on you to be the voice of God for me. Right. And I think that that's another consumerism thing that happens in the churches is, is like, we go on Sunday and we expect the pastor to have a relationship with God.

For us, we, you know, it's like we want the pastor to hear from God and to do the study and to do all this stuff for us. Right. It's like, don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan. Like, go to church, go hear preaching, good preaching like, and all of that. [00:23:00] Like there's a, there's definitely a benefit to all of that.

But we need to, we need to just bring back this practice of silence, solitude, fasting, not just coming to God with our laundry list of demands, but listening for what he has to say. And that for a lot of people is scary. It's, it, I, I think that you just, uh, reminded me of a, a piece of scripture. Um, I think it's Joshua one, eight.

Keep this book of the law always on your lips, meditate on it day and night. So you may be careful to do everything that's written in it. Then you'll be prosperous and successful. Hmm. And I think that there's something, there's something about what we're talking about that's really uncomfortable for people when it comes to.

Just submitting to the way of the Lord, like what God wants for you in your life. Mm-hmm. It might come with the process, you know, John 15, like taking some of those branches and burning 'em off mm-hmm. And tearing 'em off and mm-hmm. It really, it might be painful. It will be painful. Mm-hmm. [00:24:00] I think that process is supposed to be painful, but I also think that, I've experienced this in my own walk, where once you develop that communion with the Lord, anything that creates separation from that, which it would be sin, it, it like, should shake you to your core mm-hmm.

When you're mm-hmm. When you're, um, feeling distance from that. And I've, I've felt that in my own walk where it's like, mm-hmm. Man, I was not being obedient. Mm. And then that, like, I, I wasn't ha I didn't have that same relationship. Um, and it, and it had, it was nothing of God's doing. It was all me. Um, you know, relying on other things or, or acting out of like order.

And, um, yeah, I think that there's definitely something special to the idea, like the idea of learning to hear God through that obedience. Like I think that's definitely been the case for me. Like learning how God speaks is, is, um, [00:25:00] it's so important to develop the practices that underpin that. And also, um, yeah, just spend time being quiet, um, afterwards.

I love what you're saying there, you know, and as I hear you sharing, just kind of like that. That feeling of disobeying God and then feeling that that bit of separation from his presence. You know, it reminds me of the psalmist when he says, as the dear pants, for streams of water, so my soul pants for you.

Oh God, where can I go to meet with you? Oh Lord. And you know, I've you think about that, it's like a deer needs water to survive. He says as a deer pants for water. So my soul pants for you. Oh God. Hmm. Like that's the kind of dependence that I think Jesus invites us into. Mm. And the fact that you [00:26:00] feel thirsty when you step away, which I feel that too.

Mm. You know? Yeah. When I'm, when I don't spend time or if I don't prioritize, if I miss time with the Lord, I feel it. It's just like you're not drinking water. Yeah. Like if you tried to go run a race, a marathon and you didn't hydrate, you would feel it. You know what I mean? Definitely. And I think that that's the type of, that's the type of relationship Jesus wants us to have with him, where we need him.

Not like, not like we need a new car, or we need a new shirt, or we need a new a vacation where we need him, like we need water. Mm-hmm. Like that's the type of like communion. I think that, that God, and, and sadly I think. This isn't a judgmental statement because I've been in this place in my own walk. Hmm.

Is I think sadly, even in the church, we, we substitute that communion with the Lord for so many other things that just [00:27:00] are not, they're not, they're not, they're not good substitutes. Right. Whether it's doctrine, um, you know, even sometimes disciplines, even though they're good, but sometimes you can, you can replace communion with the Lord, with like things that you're doing for the Lord.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's like Jesus, when you look at his life, he was always, he was abiding in the Father, right? Mm-hmm. And, um, he was communing with the Lord and all of his ministry and his mission float out of his communion with God. Hmm. Yeah. What you're saying is really hitting me. 'cause I feel like the last few weeks, my prayer life has been the best that it.

It's, it's been the clearest that it's ever been. Like I feel like my communication with God, like my eyes open, I've been closing my eyes right before I close my eyes. I've been praying and right when I open my eyes, I've just been getting my mind on the Lord in a way that's not like [00:28:00] religious Performative.

Yeah. Religious or like, I need to do this. Yeah. It's more of this gentle posture where it's like, I just wanna be thinking about God right now. Yes. And that's like rippled through my days. Yes. And like I would, I would say like tangibly the last few weeks, I've just felt this shift in my prayer life into everything else.

Yes. Where it's just been, yeah. It's been just like this beautiful echo throughout my days where I was asking for little, little things, like been struggling with work to focus and just being like, Lord, I would love, I would love for my heart to be committed to excellence tomorrow. And just to be able to focus on what's the most important.

Mm-hmm. And like. I felt that like in, in my days. Wow. Yeah. Praise God. So it's, what you're saying is so true and, and honestly ties back, I think maybe to one of the most pivotal moments in, in my walk in, in something that you were a huge part of, which was sharing that the book, um, disciplines of a Godly Man.

Yes. I would love to unpack it a little bit. 'cause I [00:29:00] think it's, it's so, yeah. It's so impactful and I think it's like relevant to what we're talking about, where it is, it lays out a foundation that, mm-hmm. I think gives something, gives people something to get some traction on. Yes. When it comes to developing a relationship with the Lord.

Yes. Um, it start, starts off with like the purity chapter. Yes. The relationship chapters first, or mm-hmm. Section is, first talks about purity. Mm-hmm. Talks about, you know, relationships with friends, family, et cetera. And then it gets into prayer life and giving and all these other aspects. Church life and all that stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, why has that book been impactful for you in terms of discipling other guys? Yeah. So, um, the, the first time I read that book, I, I felt, I heard God speak to me very clearly. He said, I want you to get this book into as many hands of as many men in Austin as you possibly can. And, um, the reason why I like the book is because I do feel like it gives guys a good track to run on.[00:30:00]

And, um, you know, it's, it's, it gives very practical. Insight on how to, um, how to live out the Christian life, you know what I mean? And I think that, um, it's, it's really good. And, um, you know, I think that, um, he hits on a lot of the things that, that we've been talking about in this podcast already. You know, when it comes to the discipline of prayer and meditation and just being in the presence of the Lord and communing with the Lord.

I think if I had like one criticism, I would say, like, I would like to see that at the front of the book, of just the importance of that, that, that time with the Lord and communion with God and like that inner life with him. So that, so that we see to it that our disciplines flow out of our communion with the Lord.

Hmm. And not our disciplines create communion with the Lord because it's, it's a d there's definitely a difference. [00:31:00] Hmm. Yeah. I, I think, um, I've gone through that book three times now. Yeah. And each time I've gotten something different out of it. Yeah. The first time Uhhuh, it was like, just the, like the weight of kind of how he speaks too.

Yes. So I think is very black and white. Uhhuh Uhhuh. Um, yeah. And I do feel like guys resonate with the discipline, the challenge, the discipline aspect of it. Um, but what you're saying is there's, there's a life beyond the disciplines that is, is kind of, um, it's, it's not like fully addressed in like what, what he's talking about.

Yeah. I think, um, you know, for David Hughes, I think, um, his tradition and his background, um, maybe not so much the contemplative tradition. Yeah. You know, a little more of the like Bible mm-hmm. Sort of. Tradition. And so, um, you know, but I would love to see a weaving in of just sort of the, you know, some of the contemplative practice.

And it's there. It's not that it's not there, I'm not saying, but, [00:32:00] um, the disciplines flow out of an inner life with Jesus. Yep. You know what I mean? Ab Absolutely. And so that, that inner life must be established. And I think otherwise it becomes like this, this religious burden or yoke that we put on a, on our shoulders.

And, um, but, um, I, yeah, I think it's a really good book and I think like it's a good challenge and, um, I think it's a challenge that's needed for men in our culture and in our society today. Well, in, in my walk, I feel like that inner life with Jesus, I, I don't think I fully turned the corner in terms of understanding what that looks like until I.

We were talking about this before in the parking lot, truly understood the weight of this past week, or We're recording now. Good Friday was last Friday. Mm. And just understanding like what actually happened, what Jesus actually went through. Mm-hmm. His not only his teachings, but the [00:33:00] sacrifice that he made and what that actually means for us.

Oh geez. Yeah. Um, and yeah, I feel, I feel like it's just, it's very easy to gloss over these things and Oh, just culturally like, you know, I grew up Easter. There's, you know, the, the Easter Bunny, there's Christmas. Yeah, there's Santa, there's Right, there's these like mythical, uh, figures, Uhhuh that exist, Uhhuh Uhhuh in both those holidays that aren't Jesus.

Yeah. And it's a, to me it's a, it's a. It's a shame. It's like it totally distracts from the core of the message. Uh, it really does. Yeah. So, but there's something so profound and powerful I think, like, you know, that, that I can relate to because, you know, not growing up in the church and then like becoming a Christian, being on fire for the Lord, like similar to your experience.

Mm-hmm. It's like there's something so profound when all of a sudden these holidays that you've been sort of celebrating your whole life. Yeah. All [00:34:00] of a sudden you see the real meaning behind them and you're like, wow. Like the Christmas carols hit a little bit different. Oh my gosh. You know, the ones that are actually about Jesus, not like Rudolph, but like, you know what I'm saying?

Like, oh, holy Night. Like I remember singing, oh, holy Night. The first year I was a Christian. I was like, holy, I'm wrecked. Dude. That wrecked me this year when you had dude the worship team sing all that night. Yes. Oh, that's my favorite worship Carol. I mean, it's just like so good, but it's like, dude, like these songs actually are about Jesus.

Yeah. Wow. And then, you know, you get to Easter and, and you know, you're, you're, you're talking about, you know, the resurrection of Jesus and you know, you're talking about his death on the cross and Yeah. I think you're absolutely right. I think sometimes like, you know, we forget the weight and the meaning of the crucifixion of Jesus.

Mm-hmm. It's like a lot of people call it, and we were talking about this earlier, but it's like the lullaby effect, right? Like, we hear this story over and over and over again. Oh yeah. Jesus died on the cross. Oh yeah. Oh, great. Yeah. [00:35:00] Good news. Okay. Awesome. Next high five. You know, it's like, oh yeah. Uh, Jesus died on the car.

Okay, cool. Um. But like, no, Jesus died on the cross, like the, the only sinless human being to ever walk this planet. Like gave, like, he emptied himself, as it says in Philippians. He emptied himself of like his, his powers as as God. And he came to earth and humbled himself, came coming to earth in the form of a, of a man.

And then he died for our sin. And he endured like the most cruel of punishments and humiliation and the pain of being betrayed by his closest friends and, and then hanging on that cross and bleeding and dying for us so that, you know, we can have reconciliation to our heavenly father. And you know, when I reflect on the power and the weight of that and, and the [00:36:00] ways that I still can, continually can just drop the ball and.

Totally dishonor God in my life. You know, whether it be through my lack of trust or the ways that I can be fearful in my own life, even though he's proven his faithfulness time and time again, you know, Jesus bled and died. Um, I think sometimes we lose the weight of that and the lullaby effect. We're just like, oh yeah, Jesus died with rose from the grave.

Hallelujah. Another holiday, another. You know? But it's like, no, like this is the biggest news ever. And it doesn't just like, it's not just something that we celebrate once, when we pray to receive him as our Lord and Savior. No. This is like a reality that should impact us every single day. Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. Like he not, and you know, so yeah. Reflecting on that and how, you know Jesus, he gave it all. Mm-hmm. There's something about the crucifixion. [00:37:00] It's easy to place to point our focus to a few different, like the resurrection is so important mm-hmm. In this whole story. Mm-hmm. But yeah, the buildup to that is the crucifixion.

Yeah. And it's this beautiful illustration, in my opinion of love and like the fullness of what love really looks like. Absolutely. Like can you imagine sending your son down to earth to live the perfect life, only to be spiritually betrayed by your closest friends who you've been pouring into for the last three years, and then physically mutilated and brought to the point of just pure destruction and, and pain.

And just that level of like, God's heart is at the center of that to redeem humanity. Mm-hmm. It's like. So he's, he's sending [00:38:00] this, this message down to us. That's, uh, it, it, it is, it's, it's worth just like stopping and being like, it is that awe inspiring to think about what the hu trying to humanize that moment, building up to the cross and what it really means.

Mm-hmm. I don't really, I don't really know if there's any disciplines that can replace feeling what Christ did on the cross. Like, it's, it's kind of like what we were talking about a little bit before. It's like once you have that internal life with Jesus dis disciplines are important, but they're just background noise to the relationship.

Exactly. Oh yeah. Absolutely. What, um, was, is there anything that, about just the story of the crucifixion, good Friday, that stands out to you, like, as amplifying or showing like God's love. I mean, there's so much. [00:39:00] Mm-hmm. You know, as I hear you talk, talking about the sacrificial love of God, you know, I'm reminded of, um, you know, in the Greek language, there's several different words in the New Testament for love.

Like we, we use the same word to say, I love pizza, that we would use to say, I love my wife. Right? It's like, where I love God, you know, it's like, yes, we have the same word, but they have different words. You know, there's, um, aeros, which is romantic love. There's philo, which is brotherly love, and then there's agape, which is like the self-sacrificing love.

And so when the Bible talks about like, for God so loved the world, it's agape. It's like, for God, so agape the world. And we're talking about like a, a love that pours out, a love that sacrifices itself. And it's a love that really cannot be truly understood, I don't think, without the cross. Hmm. Like it's the, it's, it's what, to me, differentiates in many ways like.

Christian Love from just like any other [00:40:00] religion or any other like type of love in the world, right? Like our love is to be modeled after this self-sacrificing type of love. And so like how Jesus came and he gave his life in that way. To me that is like the ultimate symbol of true, true love, agape love.

And you know, when the Bible talks about in relationships, we should love our wives as Christ loved the church. That's the type of love we're talking about. We're talking about the self-sacrificing, lay my life down type of love. That we are to show for one another. And, um, no, I think it's powerful, but there's so much, you know, another thing too that I was struck with this, this, this Good Friday, it was thinking about how, you know, the Bible says that on the cross, Jesus disarmed the powers of darkness and hell, he made a public spectacle of them through his victory, through his death on the cross.

Yeah. [00:41:00] And I, you know, so when Jesus died on the cross, he was defeating the powers of darkness in hell. Hell thought it was winning, but actually that was the death blow that Jesus dealt to Satan, right? Mm-hmm. And it's like, I was thinking about it, and it's like, not only was Jesus dying on the cross, but he was fighting.

Hmm. This was part of the fight. Hmm. This was part of the, like cosmic battle, right? Right. This was part of Jesus defeating the powers of hell. And so. You know, a lot of times when we talk about the atonement, um, you know, when we talk about what the, the finished work of Jesus on the cross and its implications for us, we often will talk about how he died as a substitute.

Like it, he took our place. Right. We often will talk about how he, you know, made propitiation for our sin. Like he, the guilt that we deserved, he removed it. Right. We talk about [00:42:00] how, you know, he, he died so that we can live a holy life. Right. He, um, you know, we talk about these aspects of the atonement and those are all great things.

We talk about how he paid the ransom that, you know, we had a debt we could not pay. He paid a debt he did not owe. Mm-hmm. And, and we we're thankful for that. Yes. But one of the pieces I think we miss about the atonement and that I think is so important is how. Jesus, when he died on the cross, he defeated the powers of darkness in hell.

Hmm. You know, and you know, we live in between the times where Jesus is gonna return and he's gonna finally like vanquish Satan to the, to, to the, to the fires of hell or whatever. Hmm. To the, to the lake of fire. But like, it was the cross that was the death blow. Mm. It was the cross that was like, that was like the knockout punch to the devil.

Mm. You know? Yes. And because Jesus came and he dealt that death blow to the devil, he has opened a door for [00:43:00] us to also be able to live victorious lives over the powers of darkness in hell. Mm-hmm. And the power of the Holy Spirit. So we get to experience victory because of his victory. Mm-hmm. I'd love to unpack a little bit of just like world religion, like Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Comparing Christianity to other world religions, right? Like, I feel like what you just said. Is so different Yeah. Than what some other world religions offer out there. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What would you say to somebody who's like, you know, hearing you talk and, and, um, just like, wants to know why Christianity?

Yeah. I mean, um, you know, for me, like if I were to boil it down into one, like, you know, memorable statement about like what, what differentiates Christianity or why Christianity or, or what, what, what makes it distinctive, you know, basically every major world religion, it's, it's about here are [00:44:00] the things that you need to do and here are the things that you need to avoid doing in order to somehow either earn favor with God.

Or to attain some sort of like moral enlightenment. Mm-hmm. Right. It's all about here's your list of things to do and your things to avoid. And it's all about really climbing a ladder, either up to self-actualization or nirvana or up to God or up to Allah. And if you get to the end of your life and your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds, then hopefully God will let you in.

It's all about climbing a ladder up to God. Christianity is really the opposite. Mm-hmm. It's about God coming down to us. You know, it's about him getting involved in our mess as the Bible says, the word became flesh and he made his dwelling among us. Like, and yes, you can look at like parts of Hinduism where like Vishnu came incarnate and he saved his village and all that stuff.

And there's some similar themes of like incarnation and stuff like that, but like Christianity is really the only religion where like, God. [00:45:00] Became human. He got involved in our mess. He didn't say, Hey, you guys, you need to work really hard to come up to me. No. He came down to us and then he created a way, you know, he went low and then he lifted.

He lifts us high through faith in Jesus. And so it's like every religion is about do, do, do to work my way up. But God has come down to us. He's given his life and through faith in him, he enables us to be risen with him. Right. Um, so that we can have eternal life, not just in the future, but right here and right now.

Hmm. The kingdom theology is something that I think is, is uh, it's what you're hitting on. It's, to me, it, like, it kind of broke down everything that I had, you know, ever thought about Christianity. Mm-hmm. Just the idea that having can exist on earth today. Yes. Um, yes. And that we can participate in it. Yes.

And that there's a heritage, um, of the Christian faith that. We can [00:46:00] play a part in Yes. And there's something, yes. There's something so powerful in that statement. Just that, you know, God designed us to be a certain way, we've fallen out of that order, but we can participate in bringing that back. Yes. Yes.

And that, that is the gospel, essentially. Yeah. You know, when you look at Jesus's first words, he said, repent for the kingdom of God is at hand. And a lot of times, a lot of theologians over the years, they've just said, oh, the kingdom of ha, the kingdom of God is heaven. It's like, you know, dying and then going to be in the kingdom of God.

That's it. That's it. But that's not what it is. The kingdom of God is the rule and reign of God. Anywhere where God is ruling and reigning, that's where the kingdom is. Hmm. So you say like, you know Jesus in Luke four 11, whenever he came into Nazareth and he entered into the synagogue and he opened the scroll of Isaiah, he said.

The spirit of the Lord has anointed me. He has anointed me to preach good news to the poor, to bring sight to [00:47:00] the blind, to give freedom to the prisoners. These are all signs of the kingdom of God breaking in. That's the rule and reign of God breaking into the present. So anywhere where the gospel is being preached, anywhere where the blind or receiving sight, whether it's spiritually blind people, their eyes being opened, or it's physically blind people, their eyes being opened anywhere, where prisoners are being set free, like from the chains of addictions and mental health disorders and all that sort of stuff.

Anywhere these things are happening, that's where the kingdom of God is. It's breaking in. And um, you know, the vision of Christianity is just being a, Hey, pray this prayer. Confess your sins to Jesus. Um, and then try not to sin until you go to he, uh, heaven. Like that's just like, just attend church, you know?

Occasionally, whenever it feels right, maybe drop a few dollars in the offering bucket. If you're really spiritual, join a small group. Uh, maybe you'll serve [00:48:00] at church every once in a while and then just basically like, try not to blow up your life until you get to heaven. Yeah. What a weak vision for Christianity.

I just, I just, I, I can't even, like, I, I can't, if I'm being honest with myself, it's like, if that's what it is Yeah. Who wants that? Who would want that? I mean, the fear of hell will, will get a few people in. Yeah. You know what I mean? You'll get, you'll get some people in just for the pure fear of hell, but like, what about a vision of, hey Jesus, the son of God came and he defeated the powers of darkness in hell through his death and resurrection on the cross, and he gave us his Holy Spirit so that we get to participate in his work of making all things new here on earth as it is in heaven.

Do you want to be a part of Jesus's army and taking back ground against the powers of darkness until he returns his second time and brings his kingdom back in its fullness? Mm-hmm. You want to be enlisted in that fight. You want to be, it's like, that's why we say it's not, it's, the church should not be a cruise ship.

It's a battle ship. This is a [00:49:00] war, you know, it's not a playground, it's a battleground. Mm. And that's the vision that compelled me to wanna become a Christian. You say, wait, actually I could, you know, I could play a part in somebody's chains being broken. Yeah, of course. It's Jesus that does it. But I can play a part.

Well, you mean I could actually preach the good news to people who are struggling? You mean I could actually like pray for someone and maybe God would heal them. To me, that's a much more compelling vision than like, Hey, here's your Bible. You need to memorize it. You need to make sure that all your doctrine is accurate.

Because if you get your doctrine wrong, then you're gonna go to hell. You need to, um, try to avoid sin, try to keep from blowing up your life and like. You know, try to just be a good Christian person for the rest of your life. Mm-hmm. I don't know. That's just not very compelling or exciting to me. Yeah.

Yeah. As you're talking, I I'm just thinking like the Holy Spirit wants to work through our submission. Yeah. And like, through our, through [00:50:00] us submitting to the Lord, the Holy Spirit will do all of the works for us, but it, it's through that submission to this greater story that we can participate in, that we can participate in on a daily basis.

Through the obedience part that you asked, that you talked about earlier, it's like that's kind of the, the weaving of this, of the story. It's like, you know, we can just, we can be a part of this. Mm. And um, yeah. It's, it's not anything of our doing. Mm-hmm. But we can certainly be the vessels of the good news.

Amen. It's, I'm, I'm a little, I'm quite a bit older than you. I don't know if this will resonate with your audience, but like, I'm old enough to wear, like, the Matrix was a really cool movie. Did you ever see The Matrix? One of my favorite movies. Okay, cool. I'm glad, I'm glad. I thought maybe some of the people, I, I thought maybe, and maybe this resonates with some of your audience, but like, dude, I've, I always loved The Matrix.

Like I loved the movie. I always loved this concept of like, there's something more mm-hmm. Than what we actually see, more than what meets the [00:51:00] eye. Mm-hmm. And I love that movie because like, what is the movie all about? It's about like helping people open their eyes to see the reality that's around them.

That there's actually a big war that's going on and you actually have power to fight back in this war. Mm. But you're, you need a, you, you need like, to be turned on, you need your eyes open to this reality. And, um, you know, back in my drug days, like I was always taking like LSD and I would take like mushrooms and I'd be like, wow.

Like. My eyes are open to this whole new world, and I feel so enlightened, and I feel like it's a new dimension. A new dimension. And I thought that that's like what was like, okay, this is opening my eyes to like reality. Right? Right. But then when I became a Christian and I got filled with the Holy Spirit, he opened my eyes in such a powerful way that I realized that the drugs were just a fake substitute.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And he opened my eyes to this reality that's all around me that I hadn't seen, [00:52:00] but had always been there, you know? And then empowers us through his Holy Spirit to actually like fight back and to take back ground and to help people get set free. Mm-hmm. And so I always was like, man, this is like, kind of like the matrix.

It's like I've been, yeah, I've been unplugged and now, you know, I get to operate in this, this power from the Holy Spirit to help other people open their eyes and get set free, and then for them to start fighting back in the war as well. Right. You know? Yeah. You use the word war and I, I can't help but like hook this into a really relevant cultural conversation around masculinity where I feel like a lot of guys are looking for and feel this deep sense of not having a deeper purpose.

And I a hundred percent lived in that reality not too long ago where there were so many other things that I thought were filling up my cup, but it was just, it was more hollowing and. [00:53:00] I think when a lot of people think about, we were doing our Tuesday morning group, um, here in Austin and somebody said, when I think about Christianity and Christianity in like the masculine way, like I always thought it was like a Ned Flanders type of Christian.

Right. Which I thought I, you know, it's like relatable. I think that a lot of people can, can fall into that. But I think like what, what we can, some of it is let's be real. Totally. A lot of Christianity is that. Totally. Yeah. But, but then there is like when, and I'm just like tying it back to previous parts of this conversation, when you do see Christ on the cross and what defeating darkness looks like, a lot of that is like painful, um, rejections of the flesh in order to overcome kind of just like what you would otherwise do in a moment.

Maybe, um, you know, I can think of a million things, but it's just like, I think the Christian walk like forces you to deny. So many of those immediate [00:54:00] reactionary type of impulses that we have mm-hmm. That we've been conditioned to do. Yeah. Um, I just think that there's, there's, we, we've been seeking, a lot of guys have been seeking deeper purpose mm-hmm.

Whether it's like fighting in a war or like being an entrepreneur or mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, whatever it is. Mm-hmm. And I think at the center of that, there's a, a deeper form of masculinity that people can tap into that's not showy, that's not externally focused. And it's this like true form of masculinity that's centered around selflessness and sacrifice, like the sacrificial love that Jesus carries into this world.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, like, you know, reflecting on the book of Acts. Mm. You know, when you look at the book of Acts and you look at like the apostles and what they did and how they kind of went from place to place sharing the gospel and they were at war I. But they weren't, they weren't like inflicting violence on people, but they were at war.

They [00:55:00] were going from place to place. I mean, they were, they were inflicting violence on the kingdom of the kingdom of hell. You know, they were casting out demons. They were, um, you know, preaching the gospel in places where it wasn't welcomed. And, you know, they were living their life on mission and they were putting their lives at risk.

Um, it's a different kind of kingdom. The war looks different, you know, than the war of the world. Right, right. Um, our weapons are different in this war. You know, as Paul writes, he says, they're not of this world there, uh, spiritual in nature. And so, but it is a war nonetheless. Um, it just looks a little bit different.

Mm-hmm. You know? Um, but I think that there is definitely a call that I think sometimes gets lost again, because I think, like, um, in the church we've kind of lost the, the Christus victor view of the atonement where we, we reflect on the fact that like. There is a war taking place. Jesus has won, but he has also commissioned [00:56:00] us into the fight.

Hmm. Do you, um, I guess just like looking at that fight, like what do, what would you say to young guys who are earlier in their faith and maybe hearing that and there's like some level of, I get it, but I, I don't, I don't know. How do I actually get involved? Like, how do I actually start owning this identity of I'm a Christian, I'm, I'm actually here to, you know, push back the forces of, or play a part in pushing back the forces of darkness?

That's a great question, man. Um, I think that, I think that it begins with getting rooted Hmm. Somewhere, you know, um, I think you have to be rooted in an environment, number one, that is going to also recognize that there's a war. Hmm. And in, in an environment that can equip you with the tools that you need to fight back in the war.

But I, I think [00:57:00] that like being rooted, I think in a community where there's other like-minded believers who believe the same thing, who are encouraging one another on in that journey, I think is really, really important. I think it's hard to do it on your own. I think, um, I think you might be able to for a little while, but eventually you have to find like some place where you can get rooted and grow and learn what it means to really, like, do that in the context of a community where, you know, you've got other people around you who maybe have been doing it a little bit longer, who can guide you.

Hmm. What is, um, I feel like the idea of rudeness is so countercultural. Countercultural. Oh gosh. Like, yeah. How, um, yeah, I don't know. Like how, how do you, how do you view like. Rootedness in, in the sense where it's not like kind of just fake showing up. Mm-hmm. But you're actually like getting involved. Yeah.

I mean, you're right on. It is a very [00:58:00] counter-cultural thing, you know, like, uh, I, uh, I think, um, I. Yeah. I've been reflecting a lot on this lately because we do live in a world where, um, the idea of being rooted in a place or rooted in a, you know, within friendships is just like, it's rare, you know? I mean, people, we all kind of move and there's more drifting and there's more of a transient culture.

Um, and so this idea of rootedness is so counter-cultural, but you cannot escape it in the Bible. When you read through the Bible, the idea of rootedness is all throughout the scripture. I mean, it says that, um, uh, the man who is planted in the house of the Lord shall flourish. Mm-hmm. You know, um, you, you look at like Jesus in John 15, abide in the vine.

Like we're talking about being rooted, you're talking about, um, abiding in Jesus. And so we live in a world today where, um, people crave connection, but they're afraid of commitment. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Right. Um. [00:59:00] And I think that like also we live in an age where information is so readily available just at, at our fingertips.

Mm-hmm. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I think that's a good thing. But I do also think that sometimes we, we exchange a deep rooted life for something that's a little more shallow. Hmm. Um, be, you know, because, um, maybe we have all this information at our fingertips and it's sort of like a substitute for deep rootedness and deep connection where we think we're rooted, we think we're connected because maybe we're receiving information or maybe we have these, like, these shallow connections and all these areas.

But like, we have to resist that urge. And we do, you know, we need to be planted number one in, in the soil of Christ and the cross. Um, and our roots need to go deep into that. But I also believe that like you don't find, I. A vision of Christianity in the New Testament that does not include [01:00:00] deep roots in a local church community.

Mm-hmm. You don't see it. Yeah. Unless, unless you're on mission temporarily. Right. Or you're under persecution. Right. So if you live in China, you know, and you're not allowed to worship in public, you know, and so you have to start, start a house church with like, you know, maybe just your family and one or two people.

Like, okay, like that's, that's, but you know, or if you're on mission and God has called you to go preach the gospel or to start a church or to do something that's, but like most of us live in America, there's a lot of good churches around gospel communities, um, places where you could put down roots. And my encouragement would be don't just bop around, don't just sample soil.

Put your roots down deep and see if you don't bear fruit. Mm. You know, you're making me think about something that has [01:01:00] been on my heart recently a lot. And, um, it co I think Covid really revealed this to me, where it was like a lot of people can intellectualize their beliefs and identify with them and then act in the, in contrast with those, like, people were against certain things, but unwilling to like, act against them.

Mm-hmm. And like, there was something about that period where I kind of started to develop a deeper understanding of like what belief actually meant. It's more of a core, it's an embodiment of the, the, the values that you are thinking and mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, rationalizing and trying to put logic behind.

It's an actual embodiment of that. And I, I just, you were talking about commitment. I just, I feel like that's such a core, um. You know, issue with so many people today is just that commitment, literally lack of commitment. Yeah. An unwillingness un, an inability to just fully commit [01:02:00] and follow through. It's absolutely, I, I think it's like a core issue for people developing friendships that are centered around Christ, that are even like in the context of like wor any context.

I mean, I just feel like commitment is just kind of, um, yeah, it's just like a modern plague, just the lack of it. It really is. And I think like sociologically, I mean, I think you can even measure this trend. Yeah. I mean, when you look at like, uh, marriage rates going down and you look at like the age of marriage going way up, and I'm not trying to slam anybody that's like single and later in years, and I, I don't think you're weird if you're not married and you're over a certain age.

That's not what I'm saying at all. All I'm saying is that there is a general trend in culture. To forego commitment in some cases altogether. Right. Or to, you know, be very hesitant. Mm-hmm. Um, and so, yeah, I think, [01:03:00] um, I think it's a, it's a countercultural thing, right? Yeah. To say, Hey, you're gonna commit to be in relationship with other people, because that's what it means to be rooted in relationship.

It means that I am committed to you. You know what I mean? I'm committed to serving you. I'm committed to, you know, praying for you. I'm committed to, it's a commitment, right? Yeah. And I think people in our culture today are just hesitant. Mm. You know? Yeah. I, one of the things that I, I, because it costs us something Yeah.

Commitment costs. Oh, yeah. But I also believe in the short term, that character and maturity are born in the soil of commitment, not in the soil of comfort. Mm-hmm. Like it's more comfortable to not be committed. Yes. 'cause then I'm free to choose and I don't have to, like, I get to do whatever I want to do.

And if I wanna be there, I'm there. And if I don't, I'm not, if we're gonna apply this to church context, we can say, I can just show up and just like participate. But you know, it, I don't have to invest [01:04:00] anything. You know, I don't feel an obligation to serve. I don't feel like I need to do this or do that. I can just kinda show up and take what I need and then I can like, you know, be okay with that because I'm not really committed.

But when you're committed, it's gonna cost you something. Yeah. Right. You're responsible then because you're committed, that means like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna help and I'm gonna, I'm gonna get involved and when I see a need, I'm not gonna just complain. I'm gonna fill it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like Totally.

It's, it costs you something. Totally. But that's where character is born. Totally. And we live in a world today where like when it gets hard, you uproot and move. Mm-hmm. If it's uncomfortable, if it costs you something, you uproot and you go mm-hmm. But that's not where depth is built. Yeah. Yeah. Depth comes from death.

Yeah. Death to ourselves. Mm-hmm. And I, I think this ties back to something I wanted to touch on a bit, which is just like the core teachings of Jesus. And it's like, love others as you love yourself. And if you put that at the center [01:05:00] of service and you know, being a part of committing to a community or, you know, committing to a church.

Like, there's just aspects of that where you're gonna be doing things for other people that go above and beyond what anyone would ever expect. A normal, you know, a normal person to do for somebody. But I, I do, I I believe like what you, exactly what you're saying, which is that your character's formed in those moments, and then the depth and strength of that character is able to continue to do things like that and beyond.

Mm-hmm. Because you've, you've learned this almost reaction to like our flesh, which is like, no, I'm, I'm actually gonna do the works that Jesus. Did like the way that he showed up for people was like extraordinary. You know, love beyond measure, like comprehension. Absolutely. And he did things that he probably didn't want to do.

Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I think that that's another piece, that's another place where growth comes in. [01:06:00] Because I mean, I know for me personally, I have learned way more from like sacrifice and pain and going through difficult seasons and going through hard things. And you know, I've learned way more from that stuff mm-hmm.

Than I've learned from like, the victories and the celebrations and the mountaintops and the highs. Mm-hmm. The victories are great. The mountaintops are great, they're awesome. They should be celebrated when they come. But for me, like I have learned way more in the, in the difficult seasons and like, you know, we talk about how we are created for community.

I think you were hitting on this earlier, like, you know, we serve a, a, a, a relational God, Trinity, father, son Holy Spirit, right? A relational God in his nature. He is relationship, right? Mm-hmm. And he created us in his image. We are created to have relationship with God and relationship with one another.

And I believe that you cannot grow apart from relationship with other believers. You cannot, let me say it this way. You [01:07:00] cannot thrive, you cannot flourish in your relationship with God, apart from relationship with other people. And so part of being rooted is being connected in a gospel community where there's other people who are not like you, who will challenge you.

To grow. Hmm. Because you, you're challenged to serve them. Mm. Or to love them when they say stupid things to you. Right. You know what I mean? Or to, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's, it's, it's about like, you know, I've got to surround myself with people who may not necessarily be like me because they are gonna challenge me to become more like Christ.

Mm-hmm. How do you, I guess like looking at the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount, like how do you kind of unpack, 'cause that, that's kinda like the philosophy behind Jesus, the manifesto. Yeah. Jesus's manifesto. The Kingdom Manifesto. Yeah. The Sermon on the Mount. But it's like, you know, he lived that out, um, and it was disarming.

Mm-hmm. Like [01:08:00] all of his enemies, I feel like all of his enemies reached a point where they had to look themselves in the mirror. I think feel like Pontius Pilate might be like the best example of this, where he's like. Sending this guy off to to die. And he, I think there's like a knowing that like, something's off.

Yeah. Something's wrong. Yeah. With the decision that he's making. Yeah. And I feel like that's kind of like the beauty and the nature of his, his teachings, that it flips the script and it, it forces kinda these fleshly our nature, um, of sin to, to like just be revealed. And like, it's like, oh man. Like absolutely, that person was nice to me when I was mean to them.

Like, yeah. You know? Yeah. That, that like really kind of flips the script. It does. It does. Absolutely. And I would add that, you know, the Sermon on the Mount is like, you wanna see the kingdom of God in action. Like, how do you know the kingdom, the rule and reign of God is present? Like the, the Sermon on the Mount is being [01:09:00] lived out, right?

Like the principles of the Sermon on the Mount are being, um, not just talked about, but applied in relationships and in day-to-day life. But, um. Absolutely, man. I mean, I, I agree with what you're saying. I think that that way that Jesus lived and the way that he calls us to live, there is a very disarming approach to it.

It's very upside down from the rest of the world. Like many people have said, you know, Jesus's kingdom is an upside down kingdom, and, um, to us it is To him, it's right side up. Right. It's actually the way the kingdom is supposed to be. Right. But it's very upside down in the ways of the world. I mean, you look at the beatitudes, blessed are the meek, blessed are the poor in spirit.

Yeah. Like what? Yeah. You know, every, I mean, that's countercultural now. That was countercultural. Then it's like, wait, I thought you were blessed when you are on top of the world. I thought you were blessed. He says, blessed are you when people hurl insult insults at you and persecute you and do all sorts of bad things towards you.

In my name? Yeah. Like, wait a minute. I thought I was blessed when like [01:10:00] everybody was singing my praises. Yeah. Like, hold up. I'm blessed when I'm poor in spirit, and when I'm meek. When I'm like, all, you know, it's upside down. And so, you know, and that also stands in contrast to a lot of other major world religions that say like, you're blessed when you obey and you kind of reach these like levels, you know, or you know, you're blessed when you do what God tells you to do and you know, then you achieve this certain, yeah, whatever level of favor with God or maybe enlightenment or whatever.

But the Sermon on the Mount is like, no. It's like when you come to God in your weakness and your brokenness and your recognition that like you're nothing without him, that's when you're blessed. Hmm. Like that's blessedness. That's when you know, um, that's the key to blessedness. And uh, it's interesting because the same word ble for blessed in the Greek Rios is also, you could translate it as happy.

And so it's [01:11:00] kind of like I. You know, it's, it's, it's this, the, you, you wouldn't think being poor in spirit was a key to happiness or blessedness, but apparently it is. And what does that mean? It's just like, God, I recognize that without you, I have nothing and I need you. I'm, I'm so poor in spirit without you.

Mm-hmm. I need you. Mm-hmm. You know, and well, if anyone listened to our first episode, you gave your testimony. But like, rock bottom is a place that I feel like is, it's a good place to get to, I think as a man. Like, maybe not the way you did it, but I just, I think like the struggle in like getting to the point where you are broken.

I was talking about this with Brett a little bit this week, where it's like brokenness is the foundation to that realness of your faith, the authentic faith that's truly from knowing God. Um, it's [01:12:00] not. Just, Hey, I was taught this and this feels good. It's like, no, like this literally is the foundation of my life.

'cause I know what it's like to, to be in a place where I didn't have anything else. Um, do you, do you feel like authentic faith can be taught, like as a father? Do you feel like, I feel like this is, this is like a, a thing that I think about a bit when I start thinking about the future is like you almost, I, I almost think like, how much do I prescribe and how much do I just live it out and hope and pray that my children are, are observant and see the way of life, but are willing to like, go, you know, scrape their knees and like take some risks and get burned a little bit.

Man, that's a great question. You know, it's like, uh, it's like that statement that floats out around the internet. It's, um, what is it? Like tough men create weak, tough men, [01:13:00] or weak men Create tough times. Yeah. Tough, tough men Create good times, good times create weak men, and then weak men create tough times.

Yeah. You know? Um, and you know, I think for like generations when you have a guy who comes to faith in Jesus and you're, you're breaking a generational curse, right? You're changing flip. You're flipping the script on your family tree. You're, that, that root, that was like all weird and distorted, like now is rooted in Christ, right?

Mm-hmm. And you're, you're the one who is the chain breaker for your generation, like your, your family tree. Mm-hmm. Um, so then it's like, well, how do I, how do I, um. How do I pass down that same fervency of faith to the next generation, even though they didn't have to overcome the same obstacles that I had to overcome?

Hmm. And that's a question that, um, I've had to meditate on a lot and think about and talk to Sarah about as we raise our kids and as we determine like what, what we allow them to do and what we don't allow them to [01:14:00] do. Because on the one hand, I look back on my life and I'm like, it was my struggles that formed me.

Mm-hmm. That was the crucible that made me like, you know, it was, it was the darkness that showed me how bright the light is, you know? Um, it was my pain, the, the tests that became my testimony. Like I, man, I lean on that like that, but at the same time it's like, I think there's a way to follow Jesus faithfully and to not have to blow up your entire life and still live a faithful life and make a big kingdom impact.

And, you know, and in fact, um, I think it's an even greater miracle. Oh my God. Honestly, when a kid grows up, never has to fall into porn addiction, never has to follow into a drug addiction, never has to like, you know, rack up like a huge body count of women that they've slept with or whatever. Like if a kid grows up, they love Jesus, they love their family, they love the church, they serve, they're involved, they're [01:15:00] rooted in their community.

And then like, to me, that's a miracle. That's a greater miracle than a kid getting off meth. Like that is a huge, that, that's just absolutely huge. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, if I can, if I can like, raise my children and disciple them to love Jesus, to love people, um, to, um, have their own personal relationships with God.

Mm, then man, that is a huge, huge answer to prayer. So I, you know, I don't think you, but I do think, like at the, at the core. Every single person at some point or another has to come to grips with the reality that deep down inside, even if you grew up and you recited the Apostles Creed when you were like two years old and you were baptized on the ninth day of your life and you grew up in the church and you went to church every time the doors were open and you led all your friends to Christ in high school, and you were the leader of FCA and you, you know, were [01:16:00] preaching sermons when you were 13 in your dad's church or whatever, you know, it's like, you know, and then you grew up and started your own like, like you have to come to grips with the fundamental reality that you are a flawed human being, deep down in your core, that you are sinful from birth and that you are in need of a savior, and that Jesus came and he died on the cross for you just as much as he died on the cross for like the, the meth head.

You know what I mean? It's like. So you can grow up in the church, but like for my kids, what I encourage them is like they need to have a personal relationship with God. And it's just like we want to teach our kids not just how to recite the creeds, not just how to recite the proper doctrine and to know how to read their Bible and to know the stories of the Bible, but we want to teach our kids how to hear from God.

We want our kids to have their own [01:17:00] personal relationship with Jesus, where they hear from him, where they commune with him, and where they can articulate to other people what they sense God is saying to them. Because when kids grow up and they walk away from the faith, it's usually because they were just sort of like forced to believe something that their parents believed, right.

And they never really saw the importance or relevance of it in their life. And they go to college and they hear a biology professor basically challenge everything that they've ever believed their entire life. And it makes sense. And they say, okay, maybe that wasn't true. Right? Um, but if you, I'm, I'm banking on this, this is where I'm putting, like my money is, if we can just do our very best with God's help to train our kids, to hear from the Lord and to have personal relationships with Jesus, where they hear from him and they, they learn not only the disciplines of Bible study and those sorts of things, but to actually hear from God on their own, that, that [01:18:00] they'll be able to carry that into their adulthood and then into, you know, raising their own families.

Mm. That's what we're putting our money on. Is there anything practically that you're doing with them that has, has been helpful in kind of putting that into practice? And I feel like, you know, for kids, maybe it can be confusing to. Like, even think about, just like the idea of hearing from God. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Um, in just from like a worldly perspective, there's just so much mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Distractions and other things. Yeah. That I think like pull your attention away. Yeah. Um, so I'm wondering is like, is there anything that you've, you guys have done practically? Yeah. I would say, um, based on the stage of life for, for, for the child, like for each of our and their personalities, you know, the approach has been unique.

Yeah. But from an early age, we've always tried to reinforce this idea that like, God, he, he's, he wants to speak to you, he wants to have a relationship with you. Um, we've always [01:19:00] tried to give them good teaching on different ways that God speaks, you know, whether it's through his word or it could be through another person or a sermon.

It could be, or it could be like in, in silence and solitude. We've tried to raise our children with that from day one. And then, um, you know, Sarah, my wife Sarah, she really takes most of the responsibility for like one-on-one discipleship. Hmm. With our girls. Hmm. And I, and I disciple my son, you know, and it's just like, you know, we have all the real, we have every real conversation that you could have at every stage of life.

Hmm. It's just like, I would talk to him, I mean, obviously he's a teenager, but I mean, I talked to him like, like I talked to anyone else that I'm trying to disciple and raise up in the ways of the Lord, you know? Yeah. And it's like, what are you hearing from the Lord recently? Like, how are you, what, what is Jesus showing you?

What is Jesus teaching you? Like what are you, what are you learning? What are you reading? What are you studying? Like, how are you [01:20:00] growing? And then not only like, not only the like practical, like the intellectual piece of learning the Bible and learning theology and learning scripture, I. But practically, like we give our kids opportunities to serve and to get involved, and we show them that like faith is about not just like having information, it's about living on mission.

Mm-hmm. And so we've always tried to like raise our kids feeling like they are also in the fight in their own way. That they too are on mission, that it's not mom and dad's church, that they're, they're part of it. Like they're, they're leaders in their own way. Yeah, definitely. Like they have the kids, you know, that they're around and they, they influence them and like they have a purpose.

And when they're at school, they have, they're, they, they have a, a mission while they're there. And, um, that's always been our approach, um, with our kids. And [01:21:00] I don't know, I mean, I have a 16-year-old, a 13-year-old, and a 10-year-old. And so I. They're not grown yet, so, yeah. But, uh, so far has been pretty good.

Mm. So one of the things that I've admired about how you, you and Sarah have gone about just like building relationships in general is like, your son has come out to our run groups on Tuesday mornings and participated in you putting them around other men of faith and what that I, what that does. 'cause it's not just, you know, dad, mom telling me mm-hmm.

To do this, do that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's, Hey, here are other examples of people who are pursuing the Lord. Um, again, that gets back to the rootedness. Yeah. You know, because when you're rooted in a church community, there are other people in the church who play mentor roles in the lives of your children. Mm.

And I, I, I saw a study on this like several years back, but they were talking about how it takes multiple touches. Number one, [01:22:00] for a person to come to faith in Jesus, like a lot of times. It takes like eight people planting seeds mm-hmm. Before a person like makes a decision to like commit. Right. And when it comes to children, they're, they're finding more and more that the more positive Christian role models they have besides their parents, the greater likelihood that they're gonna grow up and they're gonna be disciples of Jesus as adults.

Hmm. And so we like to, we like to get our kids around other godly men and women who are maybe a little younger than us, a little closer to their age, um, who can speak into their lives and be a good godly example. And, um, I think that's absolutely essential. And, um, you know, parents should never leave it up to the church or the youth pastor or the children's pastor to disciple their children.

It is the parents, it's their responsibility first. Mm-hmm. [01:23:00] But then you do need to get your kids around other Christian men and, you know, um, men and women who are mature in their faith, who are a little further down the road than they are who can also reinforce like what you've been teaching them their entire lives.

But the, the, so the main responsibility lies with the parents. Yeah. They cannot absolve themselves of the responsibility of discipling their children. Mm. You know? Um, yeah. And that's another soap box that I could go off on, but I'm not going to, just in terms of, uh, just kind of like defining discipleship.

Mm-hmm. You're such, you're such an incredible disciple or disciple maker. I feel like you, you do a great job just, um, getting in the dirt with guys who are earlier on in their faith or in that brokenness or, um, just. Even further along in their faith. And I'm curious how you think about discipleship as a pastor [01:24:00] and like what, what, uh, what does that actually mean?

Discipleship? That's a great question. You know, I think, um, a lot of times when we hear the word discipleship, I don't know if you've been around church for a while, you think of like a class or you think of like a course. Mm-hmm. Or you think of like a curriculum or you think of like a, you know, a nine week study or you think of like, you know, it's like here's the fundamentals or here's the, we, you know, discipleship in a lot of circles over the last, I don't know, 20, 30, may longer years has just been boiled down into like a catechism or a, a class, right?

And it's a very western intellectual way of thinking about discipleship. But when you look at the Bible and you think about sort of the more Eastern perspective when it comes to, um, you know, you look at the rabbi student. Sort of relationship dynamic that was present in the ancient Near East. And you see that all throughout the pages of the Old Testament.

And that was certainly the environment that Jesus [01:25:00] came up in. Um, it was more of a like, Hey, I want to, it was like a show and tell, it was like, not only am I going to tell you, not only am I going to teach you, not only are you gonna learn some things, some fundamental truths, but like I'm going to show you, um, through the way that I, I live my life.

And, um, so when it comes to discipleship, like I would say, um, you ask like, what is discipleship? Yeah. Just, or just, yeah. How, how do you kind of articulate that? Articulate, like, the most important aspect of like being a disciple maker is like, you have to be doing the thing yourself if you are not having a daily relationship with the Lord.

If you are not engaging in like these, these practices, um, if you are not living your life on mission, if you're not actively, like in relationship with other men or if you're a woman, women, [01:26:00] that you are imparting what God has given you. If you're not, if you're not doing the thing, then you have no business like trying to disciple other people.

Yeah. You need to start doing the, you need to start actually being a follower of Jesus and like having these things in your life, and then you can think about making disciples. You know what I mean? Yeah. But like, um, you ha like, to me, discipleship is like, I have a personal relationship with God and I hear from him and then, and I, and I learn and I live on mission, and then I try to bring other people along with me.

Mm. You know what I mean? Yeah, totally. So it's like I'm not just trying to like teach people the truths of the Bible. I'm trying to also, like, I. I'm trying to live a Christlike, it's like Paul said, follow me as I follow Christ. Mm-hmm. That's what Paul said. Mm-hmm. He said, I want you to follow me as I follow Christ.

Mm. So like we are all following the Great Shepherd, and then we invite people to come along with us mm-hmm. Who are all at different stages in the journey. Mm-hmm. And we're not trying to point people towards [01:27:00] us, we're trying to point people towards him. Hmm. So I'm trying to teach you how to hear from God.

I'm trying to teach you how to live on mission. I'm trying to teach you like, it's not just about like I want, I want you to develop this personal relationship with God, and I want you to be living on mission with God. And then I want you to be bringing other people alongside you as you do that as well.

So for me, it's like I ha I, I, I live out this life on mission. And in communion with Jesus. And then I invite other people to come alongside me. Mm. And to participate in the work as well. Mm. And as a pastor, I'm kind of in a unique position where I have this, where I'm involved in this community where I can give people opportunities to kind of like, do stuff.

Yeah. You know, it's like, Hey, you wanna, um, learn how to lead people to, um, pray here? Here's an opportunity, you know, you wanna facilitate a small group. Here's here, you can do that. Learn how [01:28:00] to do that. Um, you want to, uh, learn how to, you know, uh, teach, you wanna learn how to, um, you know, um, serve, you wanna learn how to coordinate an outreach.

You wanna learn how to mobilize people in their faith or whatever. Like, so I give those opportunities away. Mm-hmm. I mean, when you look at Jesus, what did Jesus do? He had communion with his father. Then he had relationship with those who were closest to him, and then he was constantly giving away authority to them.

Like, Jesus, you know, the way of the world is like, get authority and hold onto it. Like that's what our government is all about, right? It's like, okay, now I'm in charge and I'm gonna keep the power. Right. And I understand it's like that's the way the world systems work. But Jesus, who had all the power in the world, he came and he didn't hold onto it for himself.

He gave it away. Hmm. I mean, what happens in Luke chapter nine, he calls together the 12, and he gives them power and authority. Then in Luke chapter 11, I believe it is, he calls together the 72. And what does he do? He gives them power and authority. Mm-hmm. And [01:29:00] then, you know, he, um, uh, in Matthew 28, he says, all authority in heaven and earth has been given to me.

But now you go, yeah. Make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, right? Mm-hmm. He's giving away authority constantly. Mm-hmm. And then on the day of Pentecost, like after saying that. The spirit of God would be poured out and they would be their witness, his witnesses from Jerusalem, Judea, to Samaria, even till the ends of the earth.

That promise was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost and all believers were given the Holy Spirit and the authority of the power and authority of Jesus to do the works of the kingdom of God. So Jesus was constantly sending authority out. So I feel like part of being a disciple maker is that the authority God has given to you at, at the right and appropriate times you give it to others.

It is. It's, it's, it's, it's giving the God given resources that God has given to you to others. Hmm. It's [01:30:00] spreading those out. It's transferring the resources God has given to you into the lives of other people. Hmm. It's so good. I feel like you, you're making me think of, you know, uh, Jesus turning water into wine like he invites.

His followers to go get the water. Yeah. Fill up the water, catch it up for, you know, fetch it for me. Yeah. And like, be a part of it. Yeah. Um, and I feel like you do such an amazing job of that. Like, I remember Natasha's small group a few years back and, you know, you get people to pray at the end. And like, even that small gesture, I think had such a foundational, uh, form formative aspects, um, to my faith where it's like, dude, I've literally never prayed in front of people before in my life, and now I remember that night.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and now it's such a beautiful thing because like, we'll go out and do the homeless outreach and then you're the first guy out of the boat. Mm-hmm. You know, you're the first guy looking for somebody to pray for. Mm-hmm. And it's, it's incredible. It's a beautiful thing to see. And, you know, I'm not, I'm not trying to pat myself on the back at all, but one of the practices is like, you know, [01:31:00] there are certain things that I, I need to do and I'm called to do.

And then there are other things that I don't, I don't have to do. And I, I don't, and somebody else could do it. You know what I mean? Right. And so it's like. Let's say I, I mean, I'm actually even remembering a real life example. We were doing a homeless outreach with first appointment. Mm. There was a, a, a, a guy who was given ready to give his heart to the Lord.

Mm. And there's no greater privilege than like leading somebody through the sinner sinner's prayer and leading them to faith in Jesus. And I had the opportunity to do it right there on the spot. But, you know, instead of doing that, which would've made me feel really good, I think I passed the baton over to you actually.

Yeah. And you led the person to Christ. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And look, I'm not trying to toot my horn. Like I've dropped the ball on this sort of thing way more than I've like done it. Right? But like, it doesn't have to be me who prays or leads the person to Christ, or who does [01:32:00] this or who does that.

Like, I can give this stuff away. And so like, you know. I try to do that whenever I can. Yeah. If we're out praying and, you know, somebody needs a demon cast out of 'em, like maybe it doesn't have to be me who prays. Yeah. Maybe somebody else could pray that prayer or whatever, you know? Mm-hmm. Well, you grow a lot, you learn a lot when you're in those situations.

Absolutely. And you're faced with discomfort of, you know, I might start with just praying a simple prayer, but, um, I, I think there's a lot of moments in your walk where you need other people to, to give you that nudge. Mm-hmm. And I think that's like, it's biblical in a lot of ways. Like Mary giving Jesus the nudge to Yeah.

Turn water into wine. Hey, it's your time. You know, it's your time, Jesus. Come on. And, and I think that, um, the encouragement that we get in our faith is, is honestly, it's, um, it's one of the most beautiful aspects of Christianity is just to be encouraged to do good things with. With the people that you call your community.

Absolutely. We [01:33:00] need that. Yeah, totally. You know, have you ever seen that show The chosen just real quick. Yeah, yeah. You watch the whole thing, or not The whole thing. Okay. Yeah. First season. Well, the, the part that actually that, that depicts Jesus, giving authority to the disciples to go out and to minister, and to preach the gospel, and to heal the sick, and to do all that, they really depict it so well because, you know, the, the disciples are like, really like us?

What? You know, but Jesus, he pushes 'em out. Yeah. I mean, Jesus was there. He could've gone out and done all that stuff, and obviously he would've done it even better than they did. Right. But he understood that it wasn't about, it was, it was about, it was about empowering these men to go out and to be ambassadors of the kingdom of God.

And so he, he, he nudged them out of their comfort zones. And I think, I know I can reflect on my own life and like every single. Big growth season of my life always began with like a nudge outta my comfort zone. Mm. [01:34:00] You know? Yeah. I mean, I had a fear of public speaking dude, when I, that is when I became a Christian.

That's crazy. I mean, I was so scared to death of getting in front of a crowd and I like got so nervous and it was just like, I could not, I hated it. Yeah. I mean, I was, I'm, I was the same way. Yeah. I feel like, I feel like, um, yeah, over the past few years have definitely overcome that and let go of that fear of just like being in front of a crowd, but it, it is nerve wracking.

You're just like, you know, yeah. I'm much better at one-on-one and would rather connect with people one-on-one, where I know, you know, we're actually having a good back and forth where it's like in a crowd, like, are they, are they enjoying what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. Or are they connecting with it? Mm-hmm. So, yeah.

Um, well, Scott, this has been awesome and I just want to thank you for your role in my life and just how, um, how much of an impact you're having here in Austin through Thrive and. Just what God has called you to do here in this city. I, I totally, um, see it. Love it. I'm excited to be a part of it. [01:35:00] And, um, yeah, just, it's, it's a truly a pleasure to just be able to serve alongside you.

So thanks for coming on, dude. The, the feeling is mutual and, uh, it is such an incredible blessing for me to get to play just a really small part in what God is doing in your life. And, um, it has been one of the greatest joys of the last couple of years. Um, seeing you just come alive and set fire and, uh, the impact that you're having on so many people.

And I just wanna say like, um, you, Harry are impacting many, many people. And the Lord is using you in powerful ways and don't, um, don't ever like diminish the work that the Lord has done already in and through you. And he's continuing to work through you. You are having a very powerful impact, even beyond what you can see.

And, um, you know, the, the Lord is just getting started. And, uh, you know, I love, I love about you that [01:36:00] you just have such a, a kind, gentle heart and that attracts just so many people to, and that's Christ in you. Mm. And that, that, that just draws people to him and you're making a huge impact. Mm-hmm. So it's an honor to be just a little part of your journey with God.

Mm. So feelings mutual. You, you took the words outta my, outta my mouth. We're just getting started. And, um, yeah, dude. Yeah. Praise God. Like all glory to him. It's been one heck of a ride so far, but we're just getting started. It has man. It has been, yeah. Well, Scott, it's been great and, uh, I can't wait for people to listen to this and just get a little taste of what's going on at Thrive here in Austin.

So if anyone's listening to this and looking to get a little bit more, uh, from this conversation and didn't listen to the first conversation, go check out episode 1 46 where Scott gives his testimony. You might get a little bit more context around this conversation. So, Scott, appreciate you. Thank you.

Love you, brother. Thank you. Love you too, man.