#411 Joel Runyon: How Endurance Prepared Him to Fight a Billion Dollar Company

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[00:00:00] Joel, welcome to the Pop Podcast, brother. Podcast. Podcast. Hey, let's do it. Um, dude pump to have you on. We've, uh, I think we met poolside here in Austin a while back. Yeah. And, uh, I think we made Delaney was cooking some burgers or something like that. Yeah, yeah. And uh, 'cause I had your, I had your name in my phone.

Uh, you shared your number with me in the Twitter dms, but, um, it was just like pumped to connect. I've heard your story before around impossible, um, your brand. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm excited to hear a little bit more about just the whole backstory of what's happened with Impossible Foods and your brand.

Impossible, but Pump to have you on, bro. Dude, thanks for having me. I feel like, uh, at this point, like most of my real life connections are initially Twitter connections, and then it's like we bump into each other somewhere around Austin and then. Everything becomes full circle, so, oh, dude. Especially Austin.

I feel like there's so many. You mentioned Nat. Yeah. And I'm like, dude, there's just like so many of us here in Austin where it's like, yeah, just saw you on my Twitter feed, you know? Yeah, yeah. [00:01:00] Spouting off about Oak Oakley. Yeah. And, uh, it's just cool. It's like, yeah, he recorded right over there. Yeah, I recorded over there.

And, uh, which podcast studio you at? You know, when did, when did you get down to Austin? Dude, I got down to Austin, end of 20. Is this, is this close to my, off to my face? Oh, yeah. You're good. Yeah. Uh, 20 18, 20 19. Somewhere in there. Okay. Um, I was doing like a nomadic thing for a while, uh, for a couple years, and then, um, kind of wanted to like, sit down in one spot and really focused on like, growing the business.

And I was like, I'm gonna be in Austin halftime and then keep traveling. Halftime. And then that was like right before COVID happened. That's like everyone's dream. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then it was like right before COVID and, uh, when COVID hit, I was like, oh, I'm just here all the time now. So it's been a, it's been a few years, but, um, Austen's great.

Except for, you know. Three months in the summer where it's 110. Yeah. It's just boiling hot. Yeah. So is that right around the time that you started Impossible? No, 2018. Two 19. So impossible. I started Impossible in 2010. Dang. Um, okay. So it started off as [00:02:00] a, um, I like graduated college and I couldn't get a job anywhere.

Mm. And, um, I spent a lot of time like feeling bad for myself. And blogs were really big back then. Um, people were reading blogs. Um, but I basically, you know, I was, I graduated as the middle of the great, like the big recession and nobody was hiring. Yeah. So like, terrible time to graduate. Yeah. Terrible time.

So nobody was getting jobs. People who had gotten offers had gotten deferrals. Um, and I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do, but started applying at all the, you know, all the business jobs I thought I should get. No, nobody was hiring, started applying at like, target. Target wouldn't hire me. Uh, I, I, I applied at Starbucks at one point.

Starbucks wouldn't respond back. And so I was like feeling bad about myself in my parents' basement. Um, you know, I got good grades. I did like sports, wanted another language, did all those things you're supposed to do in college. Mm-hmm. And, uh, had like nothing to show for it after getting out. And I kind of just felt bad for myself for a long time.

And [00:03:00] then, um, I did a, a short Christmas stint at UPS in the winter. Mm. And um, just up at like 3:00 AM calling boxes. Yeah. You're like slinging packages in Chicago and getting chased by dogs, slipping on ice, whatever. And, uh, they lay you off after Christmas 'cause it's like a real seasonal contract. And I'm like, you know, in a pretty bad place mentally.

And I'm just sitting in the basement. I went through like all 12 movies that were on Netflix at the time. Like it was not like a big library. And, uh, just, I had all these things I wanted to do. I wanna start a business, I wanted to travel, I want to do all these different things, but all felt impossible.

And so I felt really bad for myself for a long time. And then after I ran outta movies to watch on Netflix, I, uh, I just kinda came back to my list. And I had a whole bunch of things on this list that all, they all felt impossible, but one of 'em was, uh, run a triathlon. Hmm. And I had reasons why I couldn't do all these other things.

Nobody was hiring. I had no money, but it was like, I can get up and I [00:04:00] could run around my block and start training for this triathlon and get on a bike and start training for this thing. So, long story short, uh, I sign up for like an indoor triathlon at Lifetime Fitness. I sign up a month and a half or two months later I go do it.

And I have this realization, um, after I finish it, I'm like, you spent so much time telling yourself that this was impossible. How many other things could you go do if you just went out and like trained for it? Hmm. So, uh, that kind of started this blog where I basically had a list of impossible things I wanted to do.

And then, um, I just started going out, documenting them. And so. Uh, started off with triathlons, uh, went up to like a half. Ironman kind of tricked myself into becoming a runner at that point. Uh, you, you know, you're doing a half Ironman. You do a, you do a a half marathon at the end of all the, all the running, and you're like, oh, this is, I guess I'm a runner now.

Yeah. I'm a full-time runner. Yeah. I, and so then I got into, uh, running, got into marathons, then got into ultra marathons, and that's kind of where I, you know, started banging out a whole bunch of different [00:05:00] marathons. Um, I did an ultra marathon. I did one ultra marathon to raise money for, uh, a school in Guatemala.

Hmm. And then after that, we were like, that was really awesome. Super impactful. Let's do it again. And, uh, I did a bigger project where I ran an ultra marathon on every continent. Wow. And, uh, it was 7, 7, 7, 7 ultra marathon, seven continents. And we built seven schools. Dang. So we raised a bunch of money for that.

And, uh, so that's kind of like the impetus of impossible, where it started off as this like, personal way for me to like challenge myself. But then over time. Uh, instead of just talking about me all the time, um, you know, we built, uh, like information products, apps, tools, uh, uh, like supplements, uh, to help other people push their limits and do something impossible.

So that's, that's kind of the evolution of how it's gone over the years. And so is this all contained through a blog? Were you just distributing kind of these things that you were doing through a blog or was there, um, YouTube channel associated with it? Yeah, [00:06:00] so we did, uh, I mean it started off just as the blog and um, you know, I would do videos updates for a while, but it wasn't like a, it's funny, I was going back through, you know, we'll talk about the lawsuit or whatever, but I was going back through in discovery, like part of the process is you go back through 15 years of all the documents ever.

You just living every moment of your Yeah. With your rise up and, uh, early on, like, uh, I don't know when you got like into the online space, but like, I would say from like 2008 to 2000. 16, like blogs were like way more over indexed than I think other media was. Big time. Um, and so it was very blog driven.

Like some people were starting to mess around with video, but like, like upload speed, you know, like all that stuff. Yeah. So I, I definitely, we definitely had video content and there was lots, lot of stuff there, but most of the challenges were driven by, um, the blog and then the email list off of that. Mm.

And then, um, over time we've done a lot of different mini documentaries about, [00:07:00] um, you know, we covered my, my, you know, my challenges and my stories, but then we also featured, you know, other people pushing their limits and other, um, ultra marathoners or athletes out there kind of on the edge. So, um. It kind of, the goal is like a Red Bull media house.

I love it type thing. Yeah. Just gimme like a yes. Is it Yes. Theory. Yeah. Those guys are big. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what, so like, what type of people were you attracting to this? Was it just endurance athletes? Or like, all sorts of people who are just trying to push the envelope, whether it's like business or fitness?

Yeah, I think it's a, it's, it's more of a mentality type person than a specific demographic. Mm-hmm. Because we'll have a lot of people that are, I would say, you know, we're probably like heavily male, um, like 60 40 or 70 30 male. And I would say the skew, you know, it's like 20 to 40, you know? Mm-hmm.

Somewhere in there. Um, but we get people from all over the spectrum. Like, we had this, I saw a video of the list that [00:08:00] I, I created. I called My Impossible List, and then we created options for people to make their own versions of it, and. Tens of thousands of them made. And I got a notification when I was going through discovery before of like this old lady, she's like 65, and she's like, I'm gonna, she's like a, she's got a nice, cute British accent and she's like, I'm gonna start my own impossible list and this is how I'm gonna go do it.

And it's like a, she's doing a, I think it's a walk, uh, a walking challenge for charity or whatever. Hmm. Um, but yeah, like, I mean, a lot of our athletes, I think, I think it's kind of, uh, differentiated between two types of people. There's like some of the like elite performers that are kind of already there.

They're kind of like on the edge of their craft. Hmm. And then there's the people that are kind of aspirational and they're like, I wanna do that. And they're looking at like, Hey, where am I in my life right now? And how can I kind of. Elevate to that next thing. That's awesome. So, dude, I love that message, and I feel like at that time the internet was still early in terms of just [00:09:00] like, people being like, smartphone probably had just come out like, what, like three, four years prior?

Yeah. People still weren't, yeah, I didn't think it even used a start phone for the first four years of the site or something. Like, so like, this is like kinda like peak blogs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, I'm curious like what, you know, there's, there used to be a lot of friction in terms of like getting on the internet.

Yeah. Like, you know, ins, everyone kinda has an Instagram now. Yeah. Everyone has, you know, their, their stuff, Twitter, whatever it is. But there was a lot of, I I, I felt a lot of friction when I first started writing all Bonnie Lease, you know? Yeah. X you know, 20, 20 20. You know, it's like, all right, I gotta, you know, start putting myself out there.

Yeah. And I'm just curious like what that was like for you, just breaking that chasm. Well, I mean, in some ways it's a lot easier now if you're just doing like X or you're doing Instagram because Yeah, totally. You just spin up the account, you're could go totally. Um, if. Yeah, I still push people to make their own website and control their own online presence.

'cause you can lose an account, you can get hacked, you get banned, whatever, you know, I think that's getting a little bit better. But when I got first started, I [00:10:00] basically had to like teach myself low level, like internet skills. Like I didn't know how to make a website. I couldn't afford to have someone do it.

So I think I just had a blue host account and I messed around probably like a half dozen to a dozen times. Like installing WordPress on a site, accidentally overriding my site. Like having to nuke everything, start all over, um, so many times. And the right now, I think if you sign up for most hosting plans, you just say install WordPress and you're good to go.

Yeah. Um, or use like Squarespace or something like that. Back then, it was like you bought a hosting box and then you had a understand C panel, and you're like, it was like this whole thing. And so luckily I didn't have a job, so I had some free time. So I just like, you know, one window open with like, how to do this, and then the other window of like me trying to not screw things up.

Hmm. But, uh, I mean, you do it a bunch of times then I, I realized, like, [00:11:00] I kind of figured it out and so I, I started helping some other people do some WordPress sites. Um, but the cool thing about it to me is like, once you realize, you know, the me the memes going around of like, you can just do things. Yeah, yeah.

Like once you realize like, yeah, you don't know how to do it, but you could pretty easily figure it out and just become like a high agency person that's just like, I could just sit around and wait for the right person to come into my life to show me how to do it or do it for me. Or I could just, you know, take a deep breath, suck it up and just go figure it out.

You're like, oh, I could figure out a lot of things and. You know, like a really frustrating, long weekend. Yeah. You know, it's just with a lot of coffee. Yeah. Just like, listen, I'm just gonna caffeine my way through this. So, um, so what were some of the, this is your first entrepreneurial endeavor is impossible.

Like, yeah. I mean, it was, it was pretty crazy that you just, you you had success with it through, I'm sure it was a longer time period, but, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because it's one, I, I don't know if it was like, I did [00:12:00] a, I did like a wedding videography thing. Mm. Right. Outta school. That was a terrible idea.

Don't do that. Anyone Do not, do not. It's terrible. It's like, it, it especially 'cause I wasn't even charging that much, but it's like the, it's the most important day of their entire life. And to you, you're like, I've seen six of these the last six weeks. I can't. It's not a good fit for me personally. Yeah.

Um, you have to really love, love, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to come up with a new creative way. I mean, people do it, but that wasn't my thing. Um, so I, I had messed around with a bunch of stuff. I, in, in high school, I had a lawn mowing business. Mm. So I kind of got exposed to entrepreneurship and everybody else was doing like, uh, they were working at, uh, like the swimming pool or, um, I think there was like some painting people or like fast food.

And I was like, I'm just gonna go make a bunch of money on a Saturday. And it like ruined my Saturday, but like paid for pretty much everything. Yeah. And so, uh, that was my [00:13:00] first exposure. And then with Impossible, impossible. Started off, you know, for me, I was in a spot in my head space where I was like, I just need to go do something with my life.

Like, it needs to be, it needs to be a vehicle to do something interesting and. Then once, you know, it kind of built an audience. That's when I started kind of experimenting with like products and different things and launched a lot of different products. And some have done really, really well and some of 'em have not done very well, you know, so, um, so that was kind of fun.

But the goal, the, I think the lesson out of that was just if you just kind of keep going, you figure things out over time. Mm-hmm. And people get real tired tied to this. Like, I have to make this one post. I signed up for x, I wanna make this one post on X and it's gonna be either firo or I have to quit.

Right. Cost. Yeah. And uh, I think the real value is just the continual creation and moving forward and just, you know, I think that's the lesson that I've had the last 15 [00:14:00] years of just like ultra marathons and everything. It's like, there's so many times you're like, I'm, I should quit. I should go home, whatever.

And if you just keep moving and you just don't stop. Eventually those emotions go away. Something else opens up and you find a new path forward. So yeah, there's something beautiful about the parallel between endurance sports and, and business. Like I do feel like there's just so much overlap just in terms of the mindset that it takes to, to do both.

Like you're just basically progressive overload training in the business world and Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like you might only be able to run one mile the first time you go out and run, but in three months, if you give yourself three months, you'll probably be able to run 10. Yeah. Like if you really put yourself to it.

Yeah. And you, and then like from there, you know, the sky's the limit. Like in business, the same way I've been, I've been telling people that uh uh, lawsuits are just ultra marathons for entrepreneurs. It's like, listen, you just gotta like find your pace, settle in, and just stick it out. [00:15:00] Dude, I feel like that's one of those things that.

You know, if you're just starting to like, scratch the itch of like, wanting to be an entrepreneur and get your, like, get in the game, one of those things that can keep you on the sidelines. Like, ah, you know, like there's all these bad things that can happen to you. Lawsuit being one of 'em. It's like, you know, that that fear of, you know, something bad happening to you as a business partner person, like going bankrupt lawsuit.

Like Yeah. I mean, those things are, it's, it's kind of like the price of doing business in some sense. Like, those things are just gonna happen if you're in the game long enough. Yeah. I, I think the first time I got sued someone's like, well, you, you're now like a real business. Like, it's like you're not a real business until you've been sued.

And I was like, oh, I don't know if that's a good welcome to the party. Yeah. Type slogan. But, um, you know, it's, it's, it's one of those things I've, I've said this, I don't even know if it's a good saying, but it's, you know, uh, at least, at least life isn't boring. Yeah. You know, like sometimes you think like something bad happened to you is like the worst thing, but it's like.

When I was in [00:16:00] my parents' basement, I couldn't do anything. Like, it was a weird, like, paralytic feeling where it's like, I can't even, you know, I would almost, I, when I gave myself permission to like, have bad things happen or do something wrong, just it let me move. Mm-hmm. And it gimme the freedom of movement.

And so I think a lot of people get stuck in this idea that everything's gonna be perfect or nothing's gonna go wrong, like stuff's gonna go wrong. So it's like, if you're moving forward, you can have a little direction over it versus if you're just, you know, letting everything happen to you. It's, I think that's a way worse position to be.

Yeah, totally. I'd much rather play offense than defense. Yeah. Yeah. That's good or fine, you know? Um, well, dude, so like, when did, when did, impossible, that's a perfect segue. Yeah. When did, when did Impossible Foods come into the picture of your story with running your business? Yeah. You said four years ago?

Yeah. So, uh, in, let's say, uh. I'm gonna mess up the dates off the top of my head, but I think it's been going about four years. So, [00:17:00] um, what had basically happened was, again, I don't know if I'm gonna have the dates perfect, but, um, they were called this other company for a long time. They're called like me, Roxy Foods.

Hmm. And, um, at some point they rebranded. They paid this big company, uh, to rebrand to, uh, a new name, and they picked Impossible Foods. And they were like a niche. They were like a niche restaurants or something like that, um, for a while. Hmm. And some, sometime 20 19, 20 20, they get like FDA clearance to start selling, um, direct to consumer.

Um, there was like a mo there's a, there's a molecule or something like that that they had patented and they hadn't had it cleared and it got cleared or whatever. And right around 2020 is when I think they started raising a ton, a ton of money, not just like a few million here, like. I think they've raised like $2 billion.

Yeah. And, uh, they started, like, I would [00:18:00] say it seems like they, they started moving into a lot of different areas that we'd been like existing in. So we, um, again, off the top of my head, uh, they started doing like recipes and like, some of the earliest stuff we had ever done were like fitness training pieces with, you know, meal plans and recipes.

Um, also if you look at our logo logos at that time, um, so we use both versions of this logo. It's, uh, impossible with a line through it. Um, there's an animated version of it as well. Um, uh, the idea is like, uh, you're crossing that off the list basically. Yeah. So it's, uh, it, there's a quote. I always say it's, uh, it's always impossible until it's done.

Yeah. And so you write your impossible things on your list, and when it's done, you cross it off. Mm-hmm. And so that's the idea. But behind that, so, um. They had like a, I think they had a similar logo, but they were, you know, they were like in a niche restaurant business. And then they, uh, they started aggressively, you know, [00:19:00] uh, I think they like sponsored some marathons and they're going after like, race athletes and they're doing, and we're like, so we sent them a note.

We're like, Hey guys, it seems like there's some confusion happening. Can we talk about this? Let's have a conversation. And they're like, no, we wanna, well, that actually scratch that. Uh, they, they just didn't respond. Hmm. They just didn't respond. Um, and so they were filing like these trademarks in these categories that we were like, I think, I think that's the line where you're starting to move into our territory.

And so, uh, if you have a trademark, you're legally required to oppose trademarks you think might infringe otherwise you lose those trademark rights. Mm-hmm. So I think we filed an extension to oppose while we sent them a note. They ignored, I believe, all of those things. And then, uh, when we filed the opposition, they had to kind of engage with us, and so [00:20:00] they continued to kind of ignore it.

So they, I think they asked for an extension or two as like a, a professional courtesy, and we're like, sure, it's fine. And you kind of go back and forth like, Hey, what do you guys want? We're not getting a lot out of them. They basically do this up to the deadline of like, when they're forced to respond and, uh, instead of responding, um, the night before this, like deadline hits, uh, they file a lawsuit against us and they filed a lawsuit to like kind of kick this whole trademark thing out the window.

Hmm. Um, like thinking that you would just kind of like, be like, whoa, yeah, I don't, I don't want any part of this. It's kind of like a. If you're like walking down the street and you brush shoulders with somebody and then the guy just turns around and takes out a gun and like starts shooting and you're like, okay.

It is kind of escalation buddy. Um, because it seems like up until this point you had kind of handled this as like, hey, you know, we could come to a mutual understanding and where I'm like, where you guys operate, where I operate and this is [00:21:00] my trademark. I think, I think that's probably a fair assessment.

It's mostly like we, I think we had gotten some notes of people like, Hey, are you doing this fake meat thing? And we're like, no, we actually don't do that at all. Huh. And so it's like, you know, our goal the whole time was just like, let's not be, we just don't want it. Let's just be not associate. Let's not be confusing, confused customers.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, you probably don't want confused customers. Yeah. We don't want confused customers. And so, uh, so that, that's when they did that. And the case, uh, you know, it was a trademark filing in DC and this can get a little. Boring. So if we need to edit this for simplicity, uh, uh, their lawyers were like in Washington, I wanna say state.

I'm gonna, I might mess this up. The note we had sent was to their lawyers, wherever their lawyer office was, and the trademark office is in DC So that's where we had directed that stuff. And they filed the Sue me in California, which I wasn't, I'm I'm in [00:22:00] Texas. You're in Austin at this point. Yeah. And so we had the case actually got thrown out because it didn't seem like they had jurisdiction Hmm.

To in Texas. And so, um, that happened initially they tried to appeal it, like it got thrown out and they could have just like walked away and they're like, actually that was kind of aggressive. Let's just figure this out. And, and instead of doing that, they doubled down and they filed to appeal it and reinstate the lawsuit went through appeals.

The court granted it. Um, they refi appeals later on. And, uh. Um, it was like three years. It took us three years to get to that point. So this is like early last year. Uh, they refiled this case against us. They've gone through like two or three different law firms at this point. Like dozens of lawyers, uh, a whole new CEO and C-suite had kind of cycled through.

So it's like everybody at the company is continually signing off on this thing. And, uh, uh, so they filed their claims against [00:23:00] us and then that's, it was three years before we could like basically enter any counterclaims and counter Sue. Um, so that was the number one question everybody asked me is like, can you sue them?

You're like, yeah, but the way the courts work, you have to like, wait, wait procedurally hmm. Um, in order to enter those. And so we actually filed counterclaims against them. And, uh, two weeks later, after we filed the counterclaims is when they, uh, I don't know if you've seen this, but they launched a new rebrand.

I. I didn't see it. Oh. So they, they launched a rebrand last year that was like red and they changed the logo styling. Huh. And they're like, we're trying to be a Meteor brand. We want to, you know, appeal to more meat eaters. No. Mention that they've been suing this other company for three, three and a half years.

So, uh, I'll, I'm almost done. I'm almost done. This is, so they're trying to be a meat eater brand? Is that what you just said? Or? Oh, great question. I have no idea. Um, I think, or you said media brand? No, no. Meat eater. Meat eater, yes. [00:24:00] Well, dude, I saw them at Expo West and I walked up to their booth and I'm like, I'm like looking at this beautiful exhibit and I see like a deli meat section.

I'm like, this is cool. What, what beef company is this? Yeah. And I'm looking around and it like, they are fully just trying to like, just mimic, I mean obviously it's a fake meat company. Yeah. But like, the way that they're marketing just seems so disingenuous to me where it's like. They're, they're just like, it's almost, yes.

It feels deceptive, right? Well, I, yeah, I can't, I can't talk too much about that of them, but the thing that I've noticed is that they started off and they wanted to be a, they're all a climate change company, so they wanted to replace animals in the ecosystem, is what the founders said. They wanted to get rid of cows.

Um, they think it's the biggest lever that you could do to fix the environment. Um, but I think they, they, they spent a lot of money on r and d, and I think the CEO is on record saying like, people don't, [00:25:00] you know, nobody eats food because of the climate impact. Yeah. Like it's a, it's a nice story to sell investors, but nobody, like if you have like two burgers and one is like delicious and the other one is helping the client, you're eating the, the one that tastes good.

Yeah. And so they were just in the Wall Street Journal recently, and they're trying to talk about, uh, you know, they started off as this like green. Climate brand, and now they're going after meat eaters, and I think it's public record that they, you know, reportedly spent like $20 million last summer doing this big push towards meat eaters.

And, uh, the CEO is, I think it's a quote, he says, nobody bought the stuff. Um, and so they've tried the climate thing, they've tried the meat eaters, and so now they're in the Wall Street Journal talking about going after Flexitarians. And those are people who like purportedly will eat normal meat and also plant-based meat.

But I don't, [00:26:00] that, to me that seems like, uh, like an BA exercise. It doesn't seem like it's a, a real cohort of people. Yeah. Like why are that cohort doesn't seem like they're like super passionate about anything. They're just like, kind of like the overlap of a Venn diagram. Yeah. It seems like it, it would be like, I'm a, I'm a busy person who needs food and it seems healthy.

Yeah. That I haven't done a ton of research. Yeah. Or it's like, you know, it's a vegan person who. Misses. They're all meat. Yeah. They're like gonna snack on some meat 'cause they miss it. But it's not a, that's, you know, they raised that like a, they raised $2 billion at a dude, $7 billion valuation. I, it doesn't seem like the revenues of that entire, if you look at beyond meat's revenue, it's public.

It's not, it's not doing great. So, I mean, every time I walk through Whole Foods I'm like, no, no one's buying this stuff. Yeah. There's no, well, whole Foods I don't even think carries all their line. They carry. 'cause I, again, I, I can't speak to too much of it, but I think Whole Foods has ingredients, requirements on a whole bunch of the foods that they carry.

[00:27:00] Mm. Um, but yeah, it's, you know, in the pandemic there are a bunch of memes of like, all the meat aisles are completely empty and then the plant-based meat section's full and you're like, that's not, that's not great. So that's kinda the rundown of, of the lawsuit. But it's, uh. It's finally coming up. Like the trial is set in November.

So, and that's you counter suing them? That's the whole, or that's the, all the claims. This is everything. Yeah. So they've got a bunch of claims in the case against me. Um, oh no. So the, the one benefit is, uh, there was a court ordered mediation date in June. That's where you're supposed to like, take the heat off both sides.

Everybody comes in the middle. What do you want, what do we want? And I can't talk about what happened in mediation. It as like the one rule of mediation. Um, it's still going on, so you can kind of guess how it went. But, uh, I mean, it's all public, so, uh, but, uh, the night before mediation, so they had this one claim where they basically wanna throw out this, uh, [00:28:00] this opposition that we had the night before mediation.

Um, they file a whole bunch of different claims in the case. I'm not gonna get 'em all right off the top of my head, but they, they. Literally, like I go out to San Jose, I'm in my hotel, and I like get a notification that they're filing more stuff against me the day before. We're supposed to like negotiate in good faith and they, they like filed this add me personally to the case.

So they're suing me personally. Um, and, and then, um, they're claiming trademark rights across all edible goods and services. So we have trademarks in like supplements and like health and fitness stuff. And they're saying that the trademark that they have that's related to plant-based meat is applicable to all categories of edible goods, which is like not how trademarks work.

And on the U-S-T-P-O registrar that's like four to five or six categories. So if that's successful then it's like that changes trademarks for tons and tons of [00:29:00] brands. Wow. Wow. In the us So, so they did that the night before. They, they do a lot of these things like the night before. Yeah. Like, it's, it's real slick.

They're using timing, like Yeah, they're like to their advantage. It's, it's very cute. Um, it's like, come on guys. But, uh, the, the trial's in November, it's pretty much they're gonna have a bunch of claims. We're gonna have a bunch of claims. Um, yeah, we're just having it out. What, um, so for you, I mean, it's interesting that they've gone through so many CEOs and they've kept at this case, so clearly there's some ground to be gained for, for them in this case, or like just a defensive measure, like they've spent thousands of dollars defending this and this.

I, I, I, I don't have access to their financials. I would, I would expect with the level of law firms that they're dealing with, they're spending millions and millions of dollars on this. So does it feel like a David versus Goliath for you? Yeah. Well, I mean, when they added me personally, I was like, okay, like.[00:30:00]

Like, what do you want me to do? Okay, so we're, I guess we're doing this then. Um, so yeah, I, I would say it's very, very much, you know, I don't know if they're doing, you know, you draw trajectories however you want, but it doesn't seem like they're doing that great. Um, I, I can't really speak to the decision making 'cause they're not making decisions that make financial like it, you know, if they're, it doesn't seem like they're making decisions that make financials a sense.

Yeah. So it seems like, um, they've, they've done stuff like this before. They had a, uh, patent lawsuit with a company called Motif. Hmm. And it was about some of these bio-engineered, um, molecules or whatever they're making and they went back and forth and they basically just like scorched earth. I think one of the reports I read was like, scorched Earth put these guys in the ground and then like bought the IP from them.

Yeah. And that was like, I remember that company. Yeah. Motif. Yeah. Yeah. It [00:31:00] was like a spin out of some other company, and like that was, you know, it's, it's kind of weird when you get lawyers involved and stuff because it, it often businesses don't win, lawyers win. Um, and with this one it's like, it just doesn't really make that much sense because I mean, it, they've been super aggressive from the get go and Right.

What's been funny about it is that, sorry, it's not, I mean, it's, it's kind of serious, but it is a little funny. Yeah. It's like their biggest advocate's, like, uh, rich Roll is like a big, uh, uh, vegan podcaster, you know, he is got one of the largest vegan podcasts out there, and he, I think he interviewed the founder at one point, but they covered the case like three years ago.

Hmm. And on the case, one of the guys was like, it comes across as like. Okay. You know, their entire actions are like an elitist asshole move. And it's funny, it's like you, you're doing all these things. You, you're purporting to be good for the environment, good for people. Yeah. Right. All these things, uh, we're such a nice [00:32:00] company.

Yeah. And then you go do all these things that are like not nice people things. So, um, I don't know. I think, I think when you go through adversity and you go through conflicts, like they're very revealing Yeah. About what you stand for. Mm. And one of the things for me, it's like I shouldn't be that surprised.

Yeah. Like, I name my company Impossible. Yeah. That was dumb. Like, you think it was gonna be easy. Yeah. You know, like, I can't, like Here you go. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, tee that one up for yourself. Yeah. So my joke is my next company's gonna be called uh uh. Very easy. Lots of money. Mostly vacation. It's a very long name, but Well, maybe if the lawsuit goes well.

Yeah. But, uh, yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's, it's really interesting because it is, is a chance to kind of implement a lot of the things [00:33:00] that, you know, when you're in a ultra marathon and you have to go through a whole bunch of stuff. Yeah. Over and over and over again. Um, I mean, I remember I did, uh, I did a hundred K in Antarctica and I remember like 60, 65 k in, like my back is starting to lock up.

I've been going Was it like summer in Antarctica or? Yeah, it's, I mean, it's summer in Antarctica. It's still like negative. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, this is Balming. This is, it's a vacation here. Yeah. Um, it was like light all night though. So they put you out there. That's wild. We were supposed to run in the morning and we landed and they're like, actually.

And then at like 4:00 PM and they're like, you're gonna start running at like, I think it was like 9:00 PM at night. And we're like, okay, we start running at nine and you run for 12 hours straight. You know? It was more than that. I think. Um, you run from 9:00 PM to 9:00 AM and the, the sky doesn't change.

Dude, that was, it's so trippy. That's, that's super trippy. 10, [00:34:00] 10 hours into a run. You're just like, you're just like, nothing has changed. Yeah. You're already like, you're already tripping a little bit. You're like, what? What's going on, dude, that is, that's like landing on the moon or something like that, you know?

Yeah. It's like, like you feel like you're in another world. I remember I went to Copenhagen, one of these cities up, up north and I'm just like, and it was during the summer. Yeah. It was like 11 o'clock at night and the sun is still up. I'm like in this hotel room being like, am I dreaming? Like, where am I?

Can I get blackout? Curtis so crazy. What's happening? Yeah. This is so crazy. That's funny. So for you, just like going through this whole case, is there things that you've learned just kind of about the resiliency of being in business? 'cause I, I mean, from my standpoint, you know, I've really only cut my teeth in the business world for the last two years.

Yeah. Like, you know, have aspirations of being, you know, doing this, you know, work for yourself thing for the rest of my life. But I imagine there's gonna be seasons of like, you know, where you're literally have to just like, put your foot in the ground and fight for every last inch of what you're building.

So, yeah. I'm curious like what, what you've [00:35:00] learned through that whole process. Um, that's a good question. Um, one is just like, if you give yourself off ramps, you'll find them. Hmm. So a lot of people are like, I'll do this, and if it doesn't work out, maybe I'll, and one of the things I learned from racing, again, a lot of these things are just things that I learned from racing that I, like.

I remember at like mile 55, I did this, and then I does it apply here. But at every start line I just. You know, I, I'm not the fastest runner. I'm not like winning a bunch of races. Um, but I remember at each start line, I'd be like, I'm finishing this race. Mm. And unless I'm like, unless I break a leg or like literally gotta get carted off, like, I'm I'll, I'll walk it in if I have to.

Like, I'm, I'm gonna finish it. Um, so I think part of it's that, I think part of it's like, uh, uh, success can be kind of like the, the, the biggest failure is [00:36:00] just like quitting, right? So, um, I know you guys are doing a couple different things. I don't know how the, all the businesses are going, but, um, you know, the first info product I ever launched when I first started my blog was like, uh, like a triathlon training product.

Mm. And we sold some, but it wasn't like, like, did not do the market research on how many people are interested in of my audience. How many people are interested in like, I. Learning about triathlons or whatever. Yeah. Right. And so it's like, if I was like, oh, well that means I can just never do entrepreneurship again.

I should quit. Like that would've been a pretty short career. But the continual iteration of just being like, okay, well what's next? What's next? What's next? Um, and then the other piece is, uh, like it to be hard, um, because if you expect it to happen, then when it actually is hard, you're like, I'm not surprised.

This is what I signed up for. Yeah. Yeah. Like the surprise is almost worse. Yeah. If you think it's gonna be easy and then you get punched in the face, you're like, whoa, I didn't see this coming. Right. But if you're like, [00:37:00] yeah, that's part of the deal. Then when it happens, you're like, I get it. Mm. Um, I used to tell myself stuff during races of like, listen, I'm finishing this race no matter what.

Like it can rain, it can hail. Like, uh, I could fall off my bike, I could do whatever. Um, and then I. I remember this 100 mile bike race I did. Uh, I, I was saying that out loud, like miles 20, 30, later on in the race, it started raining, it started hailing like 25 mile per hour. Again, there's like a tornado, like I had to pull off at one point for like a tornado warning or watch whatever it was.

And, uh, I was just like, okay, so all the things that you said, yeah, you'd be willing to like, you know, go through for this, you kind of have to go through. So like, I think that's actually a really helpful exercise is like sit down and write, you know, everybody writes what they want out of, you know, their new goal or challenge, but it's like, write down what you're willing to give up [00:38:00] dude, and what you're willing to like suffer through because you're gonna have to probably go through something and if you write it down, then instead of it being a, uh, surprise and you have spending all these mental cycles being like, woe was me.

Why is this happening to me? It's almost like a checklist. You're like, oh. Yep. Okay. So we're there, there? Yes. We're there. Wait where I expected to be? Yeah. Okay. We're right on track. This is good, dude. It's funny 'cause I moved down from, uh, to Austin from Boston and was kind of just like down here on a mission, just trying to, you know, launch, launch a business in the health and wellness space.

And I wrote just a one page letter to myself about all the different changes and things that I was expecting to face in that year or two years, three years. And dude, I found this little white, or sorry, a yellow, you know those yellow notepads? Notepads. I find this, I find this yellow notepad. I'm flipping through it and I see that, and it was like a year and a half later and I'm like, literally all these things happened.

And it was, that's crazy. It was great. It was great because I, it just reminded me, I'm like, okay. So you [00:39:00] knew at the starting line that you were willing to go through all this to get to this point where, you know, you're not sure where this is all going, but like at the end of the day, you were willing to give up.

This to like, go through this experience, learn what you were gonna learn, and, you know, put yourself in a position to make some money, um, make an impact, do things that are important in the world. So I think it was like a great exercise for me knowing like, all right, like these are the trade-offs and just be real with yourself.

Yeah. I think it's super, it, it's really fun to write stuff down and forget about it and just do what you did where you're like, I completely forgot about, well, you put it in your self con, like subconscious and then your brain kind of starts figuring out solutions for it, even if you're not thinking about it.

Yeah. And uh, that's a little more woowoo than I typically get, but like, it's happened enough times. You're just like, write down the thing. Write down like what you're willing to give up and then get to work, you know? Yeah. So how has, uh, how has all this affected your [00:40:00] business? Like, are you guys still operating the same way or has it slowed you down in terms of.

What you're producing and putting out. Well, yeah. I mean, we have to allocate a ton of stuff towards, uh, legal expenses, which is annoying. Yeah. Um, you know, you don't get into business just to be like, fight legal battles. Yeah. But it is like, you know, you have a billion dollar company coming after you and they're like suing you personally.

Like, all right, let's, you know, that's the battle at hand. So, yeah. Uh, the business is good. Uh, the brand is good. People still, like, I think if anything people resonate more than ever and it's one of those ones you're like, I can't really run a company called Impossible, and then just give up when it got hard.

Right. So. Right. Really unfortunate. Yeah. Um, I mean, uh, that would be a really, you know, poorly named company. So I, uh, I think what's been fun has been being able to talk about it a little bit more recently. Um, and I think people also [00:41:00] resonate with that just because, uh, you know. I think there's a couple things.

One, when I first started out, I was sharing all the stuff that I was going through all the time. And as you get, there's a weird thing that happens as you get some sort of success and you kind of, for me, I think even sometimes you, like, you may want to pull back sharing stuff mm-hmm. Because you're like, oh no, I have something to lose.

Yeah, yeah. When you don't have anything to lose, you're like, oh, I'll just tell him whatever. And, uh, what's been fun about this is I get back to the, the sharing of like, here's, here's how I'm thinking about the case. Here's my mentality, here's how I'm kind of going about it. And in some ways it's really similar to how I, I started off in my parents' basement and there's been in some ways, you know, you know, people are paying attention because of the lawsuit or, you know, I plant-based meat, you know, you can, whether you eat it or not, I don't really care.

Um, it did seem like it had like a moment for a second. Yeah. A couple [00:42:00] years ago. And it does seem like that momentum is. Washing away. And if anything, it's going in the opposite direction. And so that was the, that was like the kindest way you could have said that. I'm trying to be, I'm trying to be nice.

I'm trying to be nice. Um, it's a dumpster fire. There's words on my Yeah, yeah, yeah. For legal, legal clarity. That was me. The, uh, I just think the zeitgeist is like, it's, it's very clearly moving towards like real whole foods. Um, I think a lot of vegans and vegetarians even feel like that. Um, yeah. They're like, why do, why was I so charged up about this?

Where it's like, there's so much nuance in the space. So it's like, I think not all cows are bad. It's the way, well, I think, uh, I think a lot of people, I think a lot of investors got caught up in the hype. Yeah, for sure. Um, and I think there was a lot of money in it. And then people were like, they like to try new stuff, right?

Like, trying new stuff is pretty cool. Uh, but then. I trying a second time [00:43:00] is maybe less excite, like it doesn't have the excitement value. And then you're like, what am I actually optimizing for? What am I actually wanting to get out of this? And so, um, and I think there's just a lot of clarity around like, you know, even if you're not factory farming, there's other ways to get, you know, it's Austin, it feels like it's everywhere where people are just like, I'm gonna get a half cow here.

I'm gonna do, you know, I know, you know, I know my farms, whatever. I know the person who raised this cow. Yeah. So I think there's just a lot more options. And maybe that's, you know, post COVID, it is just, it's opening up and then people are just kind of, I think people want to know where their stuff comes from.

And in some ways the, the plant-based meat space is kind of going to the, like the ultra processed food route or it's like a factory. It's not factory farming, but it's like factory food, right? Yeah. Yeah. And um. You know, if, again, I'm pretty like hands off on this stuff. Like if people want to have whatever they want, I don't really care.

Yeah. But [00:44:00] it doesn't seem like it's gonna replace animals in the ecosystem. Like from my read of things as they stand right now. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I feel like COVID really shifted the zeitgeist towards like, getting closer to your food and understanding where it came from. Yeah. So a lot of these people who are sitting there being like, oh, I'm just gonna like, I think a vegan diet's like Yeah.

If you're like sourcing from, you know, a person who has like a community garden up the street, like that's incredible. Yeah. But then, you know, you can kind of trick yourself into thinking like, this fake meat company that's, I don't even, I don't even know what's in there. It's like coal, oil and some other like, random things for, it's like we, we could pull it up.

Yeah. Try right here. Yeah. Try to do a pronunciation test, but, uh. You know, it's vegans are, you know, I don't, the vegan diet is kind of a, an an interesting diet. 'cause you can, it's not necessarily based on nutrient density, it's based [00:45:00] on what you're not doing. Right. It's, it's based on like a, a real vegan diet is like you're avoiding cruelty to animals.

Yeah. However that's defined. Right? Yeah. So like, you could have like a vegan diet of like lay's potato chips. Oh yeah. Right. It's not, not necessarily healthy. You can be abusing yourself in, in the process of doing a vegan diet. But, but, and a vegan would stand behind that. So, yeah. There's a, a weird angle here where it's like, I guess this is my, just not understanding the space of the marketing angle.

It's like you're selling meat, you're trying to sell, you don't like meat, so you're trying to replace meat with something that's similar to meat, to people who don't like meat. Yeah. But want to eat something that's, i, it, it just doesn't, yeah. Theres multiple of billions of dollars would be so much better spent just like.

Starting a hundred thousand gardens all across the us. I mean, that would be, that'd be, that'd be great. Yeah. It'd be super interesting. But the, you know, the ROI, you can't sell a Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're gonna monopolize the food supply and then Yeah. [00:46:00] You know, sell that Bill Gates isn't interested in gardens.

It's really funny, the, the VC model for these, these food companies. Like, I don't know, like to me the idea of like just raising a bunch of money to go after, you know, creating this future of food. Like I remember South by Southwest was in Austin. I mean, it's in Austin every year, but I was paying attention to it two years ago, and there was this future of food panel that all of it was just like.

F fake food companies. Like they, they were, they weren't farms. Yeah. They, they were just, Hey la like lab grown meat, or, you know, these things are like, yeah. Did milks, they had cheeses, they did ice creams, they did all sorts of stuff. Yeah, totally. And I'm like, wait, where are they actual, like farmers? Like, are we just cutting these guys out as the future of food?

Yeah. No one wants to think about like, regenerative farming. Yeah. Or as a poss possibility here. Well, it's, it's just, it's just interesting to me that like, you take VC models, I think, I think the actual problem is that you take a VC model and it doesn't map to the CCP G space at all. Like, totally. Because [00:47:00] it's not even just, it's not even just the plant-based space, but it's like all these other companies, uh, I'm gonna get myself in trouble here, but it's like Allbirds, you know, it was like a shoe company.

Oh yeah. They raised all this money and then the VCs are expecting like software style valuations and exits, and CPG doesn't really do that. And so if you're, if you do something in the CCP G space, a lot of people are raising much smaller rounds, maintaining a lot more control and nailing the product.

Yeah. And when they do that, they're able to scale. Like what you end up needing a lot more is like working capital mm-hmm. And scaling capital, but you don't need like billions of dollars to scale some of these brands. Totally. Um, you got, is that Chris's brand? Yeah. So, you know, it's like Chris, I'm pretty sure he's, we got a little shout out to Chris here.

Yeah. Chris shout Chris. Like they're self-funding that, right? Yeah. Um, element, element raised just like a small amount of money and they're scaling and they're huge. Totally. Um, and I think that's kind of the model going [00:48:00] forward for CPG where you, you raise enough to give you the traction that you need to scale up, but then you don't just get.

You stay disciplined. Yeah. And you don't just get like, Hey, we're gonna raise all this money. 'cause if you get these crazy valuations and you're kind of stuck and you're in these spots where it's like, you know, I don't, I don't know Impossible Foods numbers, but Beyond Meat, I think at IPO they popped like $14 billion, 14 billion, and they're trading at like a 200 million ish plus now.

Which is like, you just look at the chart again. I don't know when we're recording this one's going out. But like those are, you know, the trend line of it. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, it's not going back to 14 billion. Yeah. By the time this is released or something, something ha has to happen, you know? Yeah. You know.

Totally. Um, yeah, by the time it released, that'd be the greatest turnaround of all time. Um, but yeah, it's, it's one of those ones it's like, but you look at a lot of stuff. If you raise money in 20 20, [00:49:00] 20 21 and where those companies are now, a lot of 'em are in trouble 'cause they've raised too much money.

Uh. To just shut the business down. And they have huge expectations and the story that they sold doesn't really exist. Yeah. The, the most honest thing they could do is go back to investors and be like, Hey, look, we raised money when money was incredibly cheap. We had a vision. The vision has, or, or the market has moved away from us.

Yeah. We need to go in another direction. Yeah. You know, impossible would be better off like just cutting the line and starting literally on any, like, they'd be be better off cutting the line. Buying your business probably. Well, I think that's what they're, they're trying to, they're trying to take it, you know, like they want, they wanna, they wanna like hostile takeover.

Yeah. They want to say that their trademarks overlap our trade and we're like, we do different things, but Yeah. Um. Yeah. But it's so interesting, you know, the CPG Yeah. But I'm, I'm, I'm more bullish on my business than Yeah, yeah. I'm [00:50:00] like much more excited about it. Especially once you get this, you know, the lawsuit behind you.

Yeah. These guys stop knocking on your door. Yes. Just leave me alone. But the CCP G space is so interesting because, you know, I think in the last, like from 2010 to 2020, the technology that has come on the scene in that time period to launch a CPG brand in, in the e-comm space mm-hmm. Is incredible. Yeah. I mean, you think about during COD, the ability to access people who are just spending a, a disproportionate amount of their time online because they're locked up at home.

The amount of brands that launched during COVID who have just ripped and crushed Yeah. Because people were just looking at their phone way more than they usually were. And Yeah. Just I think like our, our spending habits are now being steered online and. Capital was very cheap during that time period.

Yeah. 2010. 2020. And all these new technologies made like, you know, [00:51:00] Shopify and all the plugins and all this, like, it's gotten way easier to spin up a CPG brand where it's like, you, you, the expectation should be like, you need distribution and you need to be disciplined Yeah. In order to like build those brands up.

Yeah. Just throwing money at it is not gonna work. Yeah. And it's like you have to have, like, you need to nail the product. Yeah. Um, you really need to nail the product and be differentiated enough of that and the brand to make people, you know, 'cause it's, it's not just the first buy, it's the second buy.

It's the third buy. Right. Um, and that's been really interesting just to see kind of people differentiate themselves. 'cause you know, there's a, uh, like Element was one of the first people out there with like the electrolyte patterns and then the electrolyte market is a lot of new players coming into the space.

But. There's a bunch of 'em. I don't know, a lot of like second or third place guys in the space, you know? Um, [00:52:00] so there's enough, so crowded. Yes, but there's enough for other people to make money. But it's like, it's, it's hard to see where they've differentiated themselves in, in a way that like element was kind of first to market on the salty side of things.

Totally. So, um, but yeah, it's just, it's really interesting to see, you know, I was thinking about, I first started selling like t-shirts in like 2010, 2011. There was like a, I think I just had to take like old PayPal orders or, and then like, I had to forward it to the, the apparel maker. You know, it just like the whole tech stack is like, it's so much easier, even since COVID, right?

Like Shopify's gotten so much better. Um, it's, it's, it's easier to start than ever. You just have to, it. It's not the starting that differentiates people anymore. It's like. The discipline, like you said, it's the, it's the product and it's the ability to keep going when you get knocked around. Yeah. What, um, for you do you feel like this whole [00:53:00] season of your life, like, can, can you kind of like project like into the future when you're in the weeds defending yourself so much?

Like, what do you mean? What do you mean about, there's a just kinda just like, you know, launching the brand impossible. Like yeah, you have a vision for what you're building, but as you like, are get kind of like under attack through this lawsuit. Yeah. Have, have you been able to like, maintain that visionary mindset for what you're building?

Yeah. I mean, in some ways like part of me wants to be like, oh, this shouldn't happen. This is like crazy. This is cra like, it's, it's funny when people are like, gimme a zero to 10, how like, crazy this, I mean, it's kind of 10, it's kind of 10 outta 10, I don't know. I, I mean, it's one thing if, you know you have a company that raises like a bill, I gotta be careful here, but it's one thing if you, a company raises like $2 billion.

Yeah. And they hire a branding company and they [00:54:00] use a logo that if you overlay the two logos, their original logo is like very close. Yeah. Um, and then they start promoting something that, you know, I don't think I would normally promote whatever they're promoting, which is okay. Then you try to talk to them and they sue you, and then you try to talk to 'em again and they see you personally.

And we think we're gonna, like, I, I mean, I think we have a great case. So I, there's part of me that could just be like, oh, this is totally unfair. This is insane. It's crazy. And when people hear about the case, they always like, oh, that doesn't sound real. Da da, da. I'm like, I. Yeah, I would love to tell you that it's, I made it up.

Um, but has it been hard, like, has it been hard for you just from a, a emotional stand? Like, do you feel like people relate to like, like at all to like what you're going through on like a human level? [00:55:00] Um, I don't, I don't know if you haven't been through a lawsuit before, I don't know if you can know what it's like.

Uh, just the level of stress. You're kind of just carrying on a day-to-day basis or, yeah. And it's also like, you know, when they escalate it and they sued me personally, it's not like, you know, if you're suing a company, it's one thing, it's a, they're like, they're trying to make it personal. Um, yeah. 'cause when I hear you say that, I'm like, that would, I mean, if I got a lawsuit from.

Some company. Yeah. Yeah. It, my stress would go through my eyeballs. Yeah. When I first read that and saw it, you know, well, I think I'm, I'm pretty good at stress tolerance one thing, so I, I had a, you know, I had a, I had a lawsuit before one time, and it was kind of this weird thing. I was a little unsophisticated with like, dealing with lawyers at that point.

And, um, I was very much of the mindset like, oh, we are just in the right so we don't have to do that much. And so I, I just like, we, we, we messed up a few things in that lawsuit. And then [00:56:00] eventually I got on the phone with the, the owner of the other company and I think we hashed out a deal in like an hour.

Really? Yeah. Um, just kind of, hey, well it was like, let's figure this out. Um, it was, uh, I can talk, I can, I think I can talk about that. It was, uh, Jonathan Coon. I dunno if you know who Jonathan Coon is. Mm. Uh, Jonathan was, uh. Uh, he did 1-800-CONTACTS. Uh, he funded Napoleon Dynamite. No way. Like, yeah. Yeah. And then, uh, he's running a whole bunch of stuff now at, uh, um, over on like Austin, like a bunch of really high end, um, hotel residence stuff.

And we had a, some conflict around, my company used to be named, uh, the LLC name was Impossible Ventures. And um, but he was always used to being the underdog against someone else. Like when he was running 100 contacts, he was going up against like Walmart or the federal government or something like that.

So he was like, oh, I just send lawsuits to people. And that's how he resolved things. Yeah. And then I was like, well, you didn't, [00:57:00] you could've just talked to me. And so we got on phone call. I was like, actually pretty cool with Jonathan. I think. He's like, yeah, he's super smart. He's very successful and we hashed out a deal, like pretty quickly.

Hmm. Um, but, uh. I don't remember where I was going with that, but I, if, if you haven't been through a lawsuit or you haven't had like, some semblances of it, I think most entrepreneurs at some point, um, you know, you get something. Yeah. And, um, there's just different levels of stress and so there's a lot of like bogus lawsuits that people get hit with, or like, there's like a five to 15 K settlement type thing.

Mm. They're annoying, but they're not like existential. Yeah. Right. Then there's like partnership disputes. Um, those are really tough. I know a lot of people that have had those, and then there's like these, you know, these big ones where you're like, is this even, this seems like a bad joke, you know? Yeah.

This is this real, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, um, well, maybe they'll make like a documentary out of it and you'll you'll end up out on top. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe we'll use clips of [00:58:00] this Yeah. Interview. But, you know, it's one of those ones, it's like you, if you, if you zoom out from everything and you're like, okay, in a year, you know, this thing's over and, uh.

Let's say you fast forward and you win, what do you want to have done next year? Right. Um, but also fast forward and if you lose, like how do you wanna like play the game in order that like you can be around next year and still be like, you know, it's a jury trial, jury trials are always a little bit unpredictable.

Um, um, so there's not like, there's no guarantee in anything. Right? Um, I think we have a great case. I'm not super concerned, but do you get to like, get into like dietary preferences of the jury? Like, I don't know. I mean, I actually don't, I've never, so this is funny 'cause it's like I've been through, at this point, I've been through, uh, I've been through a whole like a couple different lawsuits at this point to different extents and we're getting to the point where I've been [00:59:00] about as far as I've been before in a lawsuit.

So, um, I haven't done jury selection ever before. So. I don't know how that works. Right. Um, but up to like summary judgment, I have like a pretty good understanding of how everything goes. All right. So that's an interesting question. It's in San Francisco, so, you know, we'll see how it goes. But, um, yeah, I think the story I story tells itself, I think the facts, you know, are pretty obvious.

Uh, but it is one of those ones you're just like, regardless of what happens, right? Regardless of what happens, like what do you need to do to feel good about yourself? And, uh, you know, the way I felt about impossible is like, listen man, I'm just gonna, like, I'm not gonna pull any punches. Like if, like, if you go through this thing and you go to trial and all this other stuff happens, and at trial a whole jury decides that yes, a billion dollar company that was founded six years after you can sue you.

And [01:00:00] if that's how this thing settles out, and that's how like the end of Impossible happens. Okay. You know, like, okay. Um, but I'm, it's not gonna, it's not gonna, I'm not gonna end impossible because I'm just like, oh, that was hard. I quit. Yeah. You know, like, I'm gonna give it everything I got. So I love it.

Um, we're gonna keep pushing. What, um, what have you been doing to kind of manage through some of the just personal, is there anything that you've kind of done just on a day-to-day basis? Just to be like, all right, like, this is a crazy situation, but I'm gonna continue to just like, invest it in myself and make sure that I'm like still taking care of myself.

Just like stress wise. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just kinda like going through a crazy season of life. Like what, what's kind of anchored you? Yeah. Obviously you have that vision of like what the, whatever the outcome is. Like you're, you're not gonna, you're, you're willing to like pull back and just be like, whatever happens here happens, but Well, you, you gotta be, I'm fight you.

You gotta live with yourself. Right? Yeah. Like, [01:01:00] that's the imagine like, living with yourself and not like respecting yourself. That, that would be. Way worse than dude, you know, whatever outcome, dude. Um, yeah. Tons of respect for you, for yeah. For like, putting up to like a fight up until this point. Yeah. Um, I would say, uh, I'm, I mean I'm at the gym all the time.

Um, I have to be, this is like, if your body's not like under, I'm very much like I need to put my body under stress and if I can put it under stress, then I don't, I'm not carrying that throughout the day. Yeah. Um, finding something every day to like move forward, even if it's small. And then also just not getting stuck on the computer all the time because it's really easy to be like, oh, I should be here because there's stuff to do.

Hmm. But's not always stuff to do. Something you just like, you're just refreshing Gmail waiting for an answer and you're like, I could go outside. I could go in the water. I go see friends and uh, you know, that's the other, just like getting around friends and be like, I don't have to like, I. [01:02:00] There's sometimes an urge to be like overly productive on stuff.

Yeah. And it's like sometimes just be like being not productive is actually really productive on like, rejuvenating your brain and letting yourself like, like get back to normal so you can start creating again. Dude, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Creating from a place of rest is a totally different experience than like just creating to from that like frenetic energy of like, oh, I just gotta do stuff, you know?

Yeah. I'm, I'm Some of your best ideas probably come from extended periods of like, nothing. I'm really good about brute forcing stuff. Mm. Like I will just, I can brute force like a lot of things. Yeah. But the creativity angle, especially with like, you know, I've been making a lot more content lately. I've been producing a bunch more stuff, getting kind of back to my roots and, um, it's been really interesting that one, I can, I'm getting faster at it so I can produce more content faster, but then I'm also getting better about just.[01:03:00]

I'm producing more, but I'm consuming less, and so I'm having more time off. And then that generates more ideas. Right. So that's been, I think that's been, that's been a great move. How has, uh, how has comedy kinda helped you, helped you through some of this comedy's interesting. Um, because, because you do, for listeners, you do standup comedy here in Austin.

Yeah, yeah. This, this renaissance of comedy coming to Austin and Texas, which is so funny that like this middle of nowhere place in Texas Yeah. Is like the center of comedy now in the us Well, I started just before COVID. I, I basically did, uh, a couple keynotes. I was doing some keynotes for Impossible, a bunch of like, um, annual sales meetings and stuff like that.

Motivational speeches around like racing and impossible and endurance stuff. And I did a, I did a, like a B level joke to one of these audiences and they'd been like, looking at spreadsheets all day and listening to like, you know. The CFO talk and I did like a B level joke [01:04:00] and it crushed. And I was like, oh, I'm amazing.

But I was also pissed 'cause I was like, that wasn't, that was cheating. Like yeah, you didn't deserve all that laughter. So I, I got started right before COVID. I was like, you have to go up and do standup 'cause you've been talking about it, did it a couple times and then COVID happened, whatever. And then after COVID you basically have this whole new wave in Austin.

It's like a completely different scene. And uh, it's been interesting because it's, uh, like I haven't done a lot of comedy about the, the lawsuit yet. It's a weird thing to bring up your material's about, to take a Yes. Yeah. Strong right turn litigation. Am I right? It's not, it's not a super relatable piece of material where you're just like, so, uh, getting sued by a billion dollar company and people are like.

You're drunk at 1:00 AM at 1:00 AM on a Wednesday, and you're like, I can't relate. Yeah. I can't relate. You're, you are an animal. Yeah. Um, but it is, it is fun. Just [01:05:00] like the fun thing about comedy is that like, just walking around, like I do find like the absurdities and more stuff, and I think in a past life, like I would just get like mad about stuff.

Hmm. And now I just think it's funny. Yeah. So it is fun to be like, in some ways kind of a stress release valve where you're like, in a world where everything is really stressful and everything can be really stressful. You don't have to like, you don't have to be super stressed about this. You can just relax a little bit.

Right. Um, and it can be ridiculous. And you can be mad for like two seconds, but then you can just like, okay, well this is a bit now, now I, now this is work. Yeah. So, um, thanks for the material. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. So I, uh. I've had a really good time with it. It's, it is like a pacing thing where I think I was doing a lot more, uh, comedy before the lawsuit, and so, you know, the lawsuit takes up so much time, whatever.

Um, [01:06:00] but it is a good, you know, it's a, it's a nice life thing to have in there that kind of keeps you sane. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. I know a lot of people have gone down that rabbit hole of just like, just even trying standup and getting up there and the fact that I feel like maybe credit to Joe Rogan for popularizing, like, certain aspects of standup comedy or, or at least like the willingness to like, want to go like, try it.

Yeah. Um, but I do feel like it's like one of those things that like. I can't imagine how much that develops you as a person just getting up there for the first time on stage and having to be like, all right, I have to accept the fact that this is probably gonna go terribly and just go up there and work on this material.

Well, Rogan's got that bit of, it's not a bad, he's just a phrase about like, juujitsu, it's like high level problem solving with like dire consequences. He says something like that. Yeah. I think standup, standup is just public speaking on hard mode, uh, because it's, you know, podcasting is fun, but podcasting, you have some distance.

If someone hates [01:07:00] you, they're in a YouTube comment. Dude, this is beginner mode for public speaking. Yeah. Six states away. So this is intimidating, but you're like, haters aren't gonna like, bust in. Yeah. You know, they're not sitting over there with a, you know, a drink thrown at you. Yeah. Um, yeah. Standup is like public speaking a hard moment where you're like, I, I have to convince you.

I. You, you might not even know a comedy show's happening. Yeah. If you're at an open mic, like you could just be like, I'm at a bar and this guy's talking to me, dude. Yeah. You have to convince them to listen to you, convince them that like your frame of the world is correct. And then that it's funny and it's in like less than stellar environment, like 11 or one in the morning.

If you could do that, like when you get, you do that and you get laughs, it's awesome. And when it doesn't go well, you're like, okay, do you have a, a performance in mind that was like better than expected? Like you just hit it outta the park and you're like, uh, for whatever reason things just work that night.

Um, I run a, I run a quarterly show at a boot [01:08:00] shop in town. Um, and those shows are always really fun because it's like, um, well I produce a show and the room is like a 40 person room or it's like 35 person room and we put 40 people in it. So it's packed out and. And then all the comics do 15 and it just, everybody kills.

And does fifteen's, like, is that just like a good time block for people or is that Yeah. If you're like a good comic, you probably fifteen's, uh, like a good, good range. It's a nice showcase range. If you're doing like more of a, like a, like a liner, they're probably doing like 45 to an hour. Yeah. Um, but when I do those shows, I do 'em as showcases.

So you have four to six comics on a lineup. And what's nice about that is that, uh, audiences have different preferences on just styles of comedy. Mm. So all the comics i I book I think are hilarious, but some are really high energy, some are low energy, some are a little more [01:09:00] self-deprecating. Mm-hmm. Some are more like, you know, bizarre, whatever it is.

But if you do, usually I'll do like four comics at 15, one comic at 10, and maybe one comic at seven or something like that. Mm-hmm. You get a whole bunch of types of comedy through. Hmm. And everybody has like a different comic that they'll like, and they're like, oh, I like this guy, I like that guy. I like this guy.

So, but those are my favorite shows to produce because they're like, kind of like secret show, old Austin style. That's cool. Where it's like you have to know someone to get an invite. We don't sell, we lose money on those shows. Uh, but the comics have a great time. Uh, the audiences have a great time and people are always like, when's the next one?

Yeah, when's the next one? Please do more. And that's, that's hard in Austin right now because comedy's gotten so big that a ton of like, you know, mothership sold out all the time, but there's tons of other shows around town. Some are free, some are 20, you know, there's a bunch of $20 shows and it's hard to know sometimes which $20 shows are really good [01:10:00] and which ones are not.

Um, sometimes, you know, there's a bunch of mics and so people will be like, oh, I saw comedy, but they saw like an open mic. They didn't see like a, a show. So it's an interesting dynamic to like. Make a show that people are asking you, when's the next one that I can come back to? Like, that's really fun challenge to make.

That's cool. Yeah. My buddy over here on the east side, he, he's done something similar with, um, music. Okay. Music venues. It's just like one of these like popup music events. Yeah. Just in his backyard and like more than a hundred people came to the one that I went to. I'm like, dude, your place is packed.

People love this, but it's not really, like, it's not something you're, you're necessarily able to replicate on a regular basis. So it's for him, you know, it's just like, just a great thing and he's not making any money off it, but. It's like an amazing time. So you're like, this is awesome. That's, you know.

When did you move to Austin? Uh, 2021. Yeah. So Austin used to have a little bit more of this. So when we, we, we talk about like, old Austin, Austin used to have like these like random popup things where it [01:11:00] actually doesn't make any financial sense and it doesn't like, you know, like we used to kind of do some of this stuff.

Like we would just host parties and be like, we're gonna take the el on cooking a bunch of meat. Yeah. But, you know, have fun. Great. Yeah. Yeah. That, that stuff is like, that's where I think Austin really shines is like Yeah. It's, it's a big enough city. There's a lot of people, but it's small enough that you know a lot of people.

Yeah. And when you create these like community events that if you do it, you know, if we did this show, we could maybe do the show that I was talking about every month, but if we did it like every week, it wouldn't be special. Yeah. It's kinda like overkill. Um, but quarterly people are like, you know, they get enough distance from it and then they're like, shit goes, seems some comedy.

Yeah. Like, when's that happening? So, um. That's a super, that's, yeah, that's, that's the best one that I've done. And, uh, you know, there's a lot of other good clubs in town too, but that's really fun. I love it. Um, dude, I appreciate you coming on and sharing your story. Where, uh, where can people come, uh, find you, learn more about what you got going [01:12:00] on at a Possible Yeah.

So you can find all my stuff, uh, uh, at Joel Runyon on X or Twitter, whatever we're calling it these days. Yeah. Um, websites are impossible. hq.com is kind of like the hub for everything. Um, you can find all of our stuff at the store@impossible.co. And then, um, we have a bunch of nonprofit stuff that we do.

I mentioned them shortly with, uh, uh, some entrepreneurs around the world, and then also education schools, and that's all@impossible.org. So, um, if you guys wanna check that out. Um, I'm gonna be posting, I'm posting every day right now. Nice. Um, about the, on X, on X on, on pretty much every platform. Sweet. Uh, about the lawsuit.

So, uh, there's a lot of really interesting like. You know, background stories, uh, I share a lot of my perspectives, but then also like some of the mechanics of the lawsuit too. So, um, I'm sharing that every single day. So there's a lot of stuff coming out on X right now, so check that out. Sweet. Love it dude.

Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. Thanks for having. Appreciate it.