#416 Robby Sansom: How Force of Nature Is Redefining Poultry

meat mafia - robbie (chicken guy)
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[00:00:00] Robbie, welcome back to the Meme Mafia podcast brother. Thanks for having me back. Looking forward to round two baby. Whatever we get into getting our hands dirty. Oh yeah, it's ama. We were saying before, it's amazing how quickly time passes 'cause we're over 400 episodes and you were episode one 40, which was back in 2023.

Is that amazing? It's been a minute. Yeah. And we were saying that 'cause force of nature, you guys are tech, you've been around for six and a half years and when we had you on the podcast, it was about three years that you had been in business pioneering this regenerative meat company and building brand new supply chains at scale.

And so now, I mean it's three years since then, the company has just evolved so much so, and just politically, a lot of things have evolved too. So I feel like it'll be pretty cool timestamp for a conversation. Yeah. Within the business, within the industry. Mm-hmm. Within, you know, the retail and consumer environment.

Yeah. Cer certainly on a, you know, on a political, but you know, I would call it more like on the regulatory. Side of things and yeah, [00:01:00] we launched in, technically in January of 19 and we were on, we did the last podcast in January of 23. Yes. We, you know, we were really, that was like when the articles were filed, you know, so there wasn't a whole lot like of actual business going on until much later in the year 19, so, yeah.

Mm. Yeah. We were basically had three years under our belt and, and, and we had just, it's also funny to think about what we were just emerging from three years of absolute chaos in the world. Definitely. Yeah. Not that it hasn't been chaotic in the LA Oh yeah. In a few years since, but it's like still trending in that direction, ally.

Um, but man, you know, there's nothing like building a business forged in a crucible. Mm-hmm. Especially in the space where you guys are, where you guys are really the tip of the spear of innovating in, uh, you know, a space that I think a lot of people are looking at as this hopeful space for the future of the health of the us.

Um, you know, you guys just. Really pioneering the, the regenerative egg space at scale. Um, I'm, I'm so curious to just learn kinda like what the last [00:02:00] three years have felt like, just, you know, being in the regenerative space and then seeing all this momentum move through the health and wellness space the last few years.

Yeah, I think it, it's, it's so funny too 'cause you know, I think we are at the tip of the spear in many respects, but also, you know, again, we're, we're, we stand on the shoulders of giants, right? And, and, and there's so many good actors in the space. And I think to your point, I mean, I think if we're doing anything that's been truly tip of the spear and, and unique, it's, it's, as you said, you know, trying to figure out how to build a supply chain at scale that connects producers and consumers around a set of values that are, um.

Contributing to, you know, doing more good in the world. Mm-hmm. And there's been plenty of farmers and ranchers out there, you know, practicing these, practicing regenerative or very, you know, other high attribute forms of agriculture before we came around. But I think [00:03:00] as we, as we talked about in the, in the initial episode, you know, we're just trying to, we, we recognize that these supply chains existed, but they could scale faster than demand was.

And so we were, you know, our whole objective was how can we accelerate demand generation and create a pool, uh, from the consumer side that justifies more rapid scaling and expansion in the space. And I think it's, it's pretty crazy to see the number of entrants into the category and to see the poke folks who've been doing it longer than us have the opportunity to grow.

And, you know, I, I really do feel like we've contributed meaningfully to that very, that very effort. You know, helping to build, um. That awareness and then facilitate, um, you know, and, and create demand, and then facilitate connections between the supply chain and aggregating more and more and more producers who either are changing their practices or already were doing it.

But, you know, this is a, a, a, a stable form and security and, um, opportunity for them to, [00:04:00] to create a connection to, to those consumers. And, and, and so it's like, I, you know, it's, it's just a weird thing to feel like I, I don't want to take credit for what so many other people that aren't even directly related to us, but I feel, I do feel like we've had a mean, a, a, a serious role and, and, and so it's really exciting to see the change.

Um, I think this, the, the, the other, you know, that was a qualification, right? But your question was around like, what has EE evolved broadly from a messaging and climate and geopolitical and all the, all the rest of it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just your guys' experience kind, being in the regenerative space and just seeing.

Really like, it seems like it's this groundswell of bottom up momentum where it's like we need to make this change around health in general and regenerative being a small but potentially way bigger piece of that. Just, you know, have you guys experienced that same growth as like, you know, I think other health and wellness brands in the space and health and wellness companies have Yeah.

Abs absolutely. And [00:05:00] you know, I think it's, it was funny listening back to the last episode 'cause we talked about, you know, what concepts or theories and seeing so much of that come to fruition and play out in practice. But, you know, this is the information age and mm-hmm. You know, I, I feel like historically consumers have had the pool, the wool pulled over their eyes or have been willfully misled on some concepts.

And I think, um, you know, seeing the villainization of fats and the villainization villainization of meat at large and, you know, attempts that would've probably historically been. Accepted and run with like, Hey, you know, fruit loops are healthier than meat. Mm-hmm. Right? I mean, like yeah. That tells studies that gets, that, that gets published with, with the greatest of authority behind it and is widely mocked and um, and got zero traction.

Mm-hmm. And that probably wouldn't have happened historically. [00:06:00] So, so I, you know, I think consumers are educated and I think there's a, he a healthier level of skepticism. And it's not to say denialism as much as it is like trust, but verify. And also, you know, like I feel as a consumer feel empowered to exercise my own critical thinking and common sense when I'm told something that just, and, and, and you know, is very clearly, you know, gaslighting me and, and, and expecting some level of cognitive bias to, to gain any traction.

And so, you know, I think that there's been this evolution of consumers where. As there's more transparency and there's more access to information, it's harder to bullshit. Mm-hmm. You know, it's harder to take advantage of them. And, and, and I've said for years that, you know, and I think in meat, you look at the trends in the various, um, claims in premium meat, you know, whether it's antibiotic free or, or grass fed or pasture raised, or, you know, whatever it may be.

Depending on the, [00:07:00] on the arena, you can see the growth in those dramatically outs seeding the category. And it's like, okay, you know, it's very clear what consumers are signaling with their behavior. They want better. And the system, I think, historically has looked at that and said, okay, how do we take advantage of this momentum without, by, by minimum effort, you know, like, what's the least I can possibly do to satisfy the consumer, whether it be legitimate or sufficient.

Or, or not, you know? Um, and now I think that that's like the, the shortcut, and again, going back to, you know, just the, the deception that might be applied there, way more difficult to pull off. Mm-hmm. Um, and then again, like also, you know, way more alternatives. You know, there's a, there's a report issued by Rodale Institute and it's old, it needs to be updated.

It'd be fun to work with them to update it. It's from like 2017. So by the time a new issue would came [00:08:00] out, it'd be like, it'd be about 10 years. And it was like the state of grass fed. And I think one of the things it said in there is between like 99 and, and, and 2017 grass fed farming operations went from like 100 to like 3000 mm.

And I bet you we've probably seen just as much incremental growth in the last five year, you know, or last 10 years, excuse me. You know, I think that's certainly back, or, you know, back weighted more recent, more recent growth than, than, than, than not. And um, so I think, again, more people getting into the market, talking about.

These issues creating more momentum, more more awareness in consumers. So I think all of that has contributed to the, um, further education and enlightenment of a consumer base where Yeah, you know, authenticity, legitimacy, follow through, um, matters. And, and, and, and I think another way of saying that is like nuance is starting to matter more.

Mm-hmm. And I feel like this is a space, [00:09:00] commodities in general. And we talk, and again, you know, we, I'll stop referencing every, every, everything we talked about on the last podcast and folks should listen to it. 'cause we were all agree. There's link to I re to it and I was like, man, that was good. I can't believe that was three years ago.

But, um,

oh shoot. I forgot the point. I, I, I was trying to make on that, on that, on that one note. But, um. Again, I just think getting back to the main, the main question, I think it's more difficult to pull, to pull the ball over people's eyes. And, and I think, um, and I think that's, that's generally a good thing. Oh, I was, I was talking about claims in general and nuance and, and I feel like that's where this whole conversation needs to go into mm-hmm.

Into the nuance. You know, I think, um, you know, I've even had somewhat of an evolution in my understanding of regenerative and my positions on it. And, and, and I feel like that extends to claims at large. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think I'm recognizing as I, as I said, and this is probably where I was going, you know, I've, I've, I've [00:10:00] often called commodification the focus on price above all else at the expense of all else.

And the, and the result of that as a, as a single myopic point of focus is a cheapening. Of the food system and trading off value for price reduction. Mm. And I think we're seeing consumers come back and say like, Hey, wait a minute, this is conceptually we appreciate more affordable product, but you know, all else remaining equal.

Yeah. You know, all else doesn't remain equal and, you know, I don't wanna see my own health or in certain, you know, on certain issues, the health of the land or the health of animals or the health of communities of farmers and food producers suffer to the extent that they clearly are, um, in exchange for a few pennies.

banger quote
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Definitely. Um, or as we also talked about, like to see massive cost deferred to the future that are probably disproportionately greater than the cost I'm saving today. Mm-hmm. Um, so anyway, we can, we can get into some of like what claims and regenerative and so on, but, but yeah, I think there's [00:11:00] been, there's so many tailwinds and it's so exciting and, and there's so many good people out and folks like you guys and even more people helping to spread the word at the same time, like, we also have these other headwinds.

Man, it is. It's getting expensive out there. Yeah. You know, and costs are going up. And then there's other things that are, that are taking place, geo, macro, macroeconomically and geopolitically that are impacting that. And probably not to the degree people think, but certainly to a degree. And, um, and so it's exciting to see demand skyrocketing.

It's frustrating to see chi costs also skyrocketing and, you know, you want, we wanna drive more, not just awareness, but accessibility. And that makes some of that more challenging. And so, yeah. So it keeps us on our toes. Yeah. Lot of nuance for sure. Um, one of the things I was gonna ask you, Robbie. I was thinking about our last conversation and I feel like one of the sticking points of that conversation, Harry and I were talking about, um, like what force of nature had meant to us at that point in 2023.

And we were saying that you guys are really a point of [00:12:00] verification for us because there were so many grocery stores and there still are where, you know, you're trying to get good quality meat, whether it be beef, bison, chicken, whatever it is. And you might go to the butcher counter, the person that's working at the butcher counter and they really, they can't tell you, you know, the farm that it's coming from.

Maybe they could tell you the state, they definitely can't tell you if it's grass finished or regenerative. So like seeing that force of nature freezer section at the Whole Foods in East Austin is like, it's this great verification source for us where we say, Hey, if we want grass finish and regenerative, we can get that.

Um, and I would say that I've been starting to see more grass finished or regenerative brands emerging at the grocery store, which is incredible. And I'm curious for you, when you think about. The future of the growth, the butcher section at the grocery store in five years, do you think there will be many more regenerative options available?

regen future q
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Like do you think that will, that that demand will continue to drive more regenerative options at the grocery store? Uh, do you mean particularly in the meat [00:13:00] arena? Yes. I mean, because I think the answer is yes across through the whole grocery store. Mm-hmm. Um, I think that there will continue to be more a growth in the, in, in the number of producers out there, or ranchers, farmers, as people might think of 'em, um, moving in this direction, which should be good for everybody.

And as, and as we've said, you know, we wanna see regenerative scaling to be 10% of the, of the supply chain in the us which should or globally actually. Um, but, you know, that makes, that would make regenerative 10 times larger Yeah. Or more, yeah. Um, than it is today. So, yeah, I think there'll be, but like as far as selection in the grocery store.

I, I, I, I doubt retailers because of how they operate, will want to have a proliferation of options on the shelf. They consider, you know, shelf space is, is shelf space is extremely precious to them. And [00:14:00] so they're only gonna have so many options that are consistent. And so they, they might, there might be new names and new brands pop up, but I doubt that we go from one grass fed option to 20 grass fed options.

Mm-hmm. It's probably more like, let's try a different, what are, are they, you know, they're gonna have to have different value propositions. Yeah. Um, and so when, and it kind of goes back to my prior point on regenerative, you know, not all, not all practices are the same. Not all definitions and views and perspectives on regenerative are the same.

But you might see, you know, different brands at different price points. Mm-hmm. Or different fat to lean ratios and 93 7 and 80 20, uh. You might see an organic, a grass fed, you know, you might, they might, yeah, you might start, start to see grocers testing dairy, different value propositions, but I don't think that we're gonna have 20 of the same option.

Mm-hmm. Does that make sense? It does. It does. And then you can expand that to, um, you know, I think where we've launched and focused initially is in the, [00:15:00] you know, raw form, whether it be fresh or frozen. Frozen. But then there's cooked and there's prepared and there's sausages and breakfast, and there's all the different occasions and platforms and things.

And I think you'll start to see proliferation and into those, you know, if you look at, in the natural industry, if you look for dinner sausages, they're like all chicken. Yeah. Yeah. It's not the same case in conventional. Um, but, you know, we all know the challenge with mono gastrics and chicken in particular, well, not, well, not pork and chicken.

Um, and so there's an opportunity to clean that, clean those up quite a bit. Mm. Um, and, and so like, again, a lot, again, once again, we're, we're, we're down into some nuance, but. I do think we'll continue to see more options available to consumers in a variety of ways, but not necessarily as literally as you described it as.

Mm-hmm. You know, a proliferation of sameness, if that makes sense. Got it. How long have you guys been doing chicken for? Well, we just relaunched chicken in, um, a, a couple months ago, and that was the first time we've done chicken [00:16:00] in a couple of years. Um, and there's a lot of reasons for that, which we can, we can dig into and we should we do it, we, we actually launched our own podcast this same, this same week to explain to Katie and Taylor and I, an hour and a half to talk through the, the high level short version of the details.

But yeah, we can, I can get into an even more brief version here for sure. Yeah. 'cause we eat so much chicken in the United States, so this would be a cool topic to talk about. Yeah, I think I, I read somewhere that in by 2030, I think chicken's supposed to represent like 30% of all American protein intake.

chicken q
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That number might have shifted. I think it's maybe a few years old, but, um. It's curious to me. 'cause I, you know, I think it, it's, it's an animal that, you know, Brett and I were, we were talking about this before the show that, you know, we wrote an article around how chicken has changed through the years over the decades, and the Chicken of Tomorrow contest back in the fifties, I think it was.

Mm-hmm. You know, basically made it so that we were breeding these chickens just, you know, purely for one reason, one reason only. And it, it really commoditized the, [00:17:00] the, uh, genetics and the whole process of getting chicken from farms to tables and made it really industrial. So I'm just super curious, like how you kind of, how you guys even approach entering into this space, um, with the way that you guys think around regenerative the, you know, I think it goes back to our, you know, kind of first principles thinking like, why would we get into chicken?

And it's like, on the business side, it's like, Hey, you know, that's, you know. On a macro basis, 30% by 2030. That's interesting. I actually would've thought it was more candidly, you know, you, you think, you know, we eat 87% of the beef we did a generation ago eat 350% of the chicken, you know, so clearly. Um, and there's a whole lot of reasons for that.

chicken stat
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And, you know, we're eating, we're eating more chicken, so there's an opportunity there, but we haven't done it. We didn't launch on it because it's the dirty bird. Um, and, and really in some respect, in some ways part of that evolution is like [00:18:00] the, the original plant-based. It's like what, what plant-based modeled their launch strategy on, um, vi and i's vi and I beef position yourself as healthier and better for the environment, um, and better for the animal when none of which are true even remotely.

So chicken is definitely worse for the environment, definitely worse for the animal, and definitely worse for the consumer. But it doesn't matter because, Hmm. We'll just tell 'em it is and you know, we'll get the benefit of the doubt. 'cause that's how the system historically worked. Um, and, and so it's like there's this huge opportunity, but it, you know, there's just no entry point for us to get into this, um, protein category that would, would meet our standards.

So, okay. Logically, why, how do we, how do we find a way to get into it? Because, you know, like we also have this position in the space where we can lead change and, um, be the first to do things [00:19:00] or, or the first to lean into areas that others find really uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. So it's like, where can we do something that's important but nobody else is able or willing to do?

Um, and we're maybe uniquely capable. And, and I think in the chicken space, there's so many awesome folks out there doing the best they can and a, and a, and a part of the, the, the meat industry, that's really difficult. To succeed at. I mean, it is hard to make your ends meet in chicken because it has been so commodified, because it has gone from a symbol of, um, prosperity, you know, a chicken in every pot.

A as you know, being said in the 18, you know, 17, 18 hundreds. And being said by I think, um, you know, FDR, you know, coming out of the depression and we celebrate with Turkey poultry birds for like our most precious occasions. Yes. You know, like it's gone from that to the cheapest thing that there is for protein.

Yes. Mm-hmm. People are so price sensitive for chicken for a [00:20:00] variety. Yeah. For a variety of reasons. And so it's very difficult to make the necessary improvements, even if you wanna make 'em, because you, you're immediately priced outta the market. You know, you go to certain retailers and you can get a fully rotisserie cook bird at the point of purchase because it can be an impulse buy because it's so cheap at like five or six bucks.

And we're selling frozen chickens for over $30. Mm. Like that's a non, that's a non-starter for a lot of people. And if you literally are relying on this for your livelihood, you're just not gonna be able to make those commitments and adjustments and still be in existence. Mm-hmm. And so I think for us it was, it's a really long way of saying, okay, the only way that we're gonna do this is if we can actually go in and do something nobody else is doing and, and, and, and be proud of the change.

And I think, again, a lot of folks are doing really cool things on farm. Um, getting chickens outta barns, you know, having fewer chickens work with different feed types and rations, um, in terms of like corn free, soy free, organic. [00:21:00] Um, but still, like, these are really small footprints. Um, and, and there's really massive off-farm impact.

You know, it's, it's, it's, it's often reported that, you know, the impact off-farm is 40 times greater than on-farm and almost all of the focus is on farm with, with Monogastric. And so for us it was, that's from an, that's from an environmental standpoint, you're saying. Yes. Okay. Yeah. From a, from a land impact, um, you know, there's a, there's a lot of land impacted by chemical industrial agriculture, or just industrial agriculture to produce the feed that, that then gets milled and sorted and processed and shipped and logistics to get it to a farm, to feed those, those birds way bigger than what's going on on the farm.

So, as beautiful as the, the farm is, everything going off, off the farm can't be ignored. We can't just have willful, willful or ignorance. And again, there's a lot of good people that would prefer to have better options to support their own on farm system with better [00:22:00] off-farm options, but they're not in a position or have the capacity to address that.

And it's like, well no, if we're gonna do this, that's where we're gonna focus. Yeah. We're gonna get a, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna get a player on the field, we're gonna participate in the game so that we have, um, a stake that gives us the credibility to have a voice. Mm-hmm. You know, like our opinion doesn't matter if we're not in on the field.

Now we have an, now we have the right to an opinion, um, an informed one. Um, and then yeah, we have the, we have a foothold from which to build on, to go in and, and, and, and attack that. And so I'm being, I'm, I'm being way too long-winded on this. Um, I'm, I'm, I'll just get into the, the details. So we launched poultry a handful of years ago with a single supplier, um, that was really working on some of these same things.

Um, better living conditions for the bird, a better, a better breed of bird that would be conducive to thriving from a welfare and from a eating quality and nutrition perspective in those systems. Um, and better feed. To support them. [00:23:00] And, you know, that operation went outta business. We had all our eggs in that basket, and therefore we stopped offering the product and there wasn't an alternative that met our standards to work with.

So we spent the last couple years trying to literally sitting the team around and interviewing dozens of different poultry growers and contract, and simultaneously building our own protocol and then contracting them to say, Hey, you do really great stuff with your own programs, but we're gonna try to do something that raises the bar beyond what anybody's comfortable with, and we're gonna create our own protocol and then contract you to grow against that.

And then, you know, we've eventually selected four different growers, east, west, north, and south, um, to build our pro. You know, there's, there, we're a little bit diversified. We have some seasonality, we have different stuff, and we get to explore and experiment more. But it's all ultimately the same protocol where we're focusing on for, you know, from a, from a farmer and afr from a consumer perspective, how do we make sure we have the best impact on the farm?

How do we make sure we have the best welfare for the bird? [00:24:00] How do we make sure we deliver the best product for the consumer? And how do we begin to have the best impact off of the farm, and particularly in the feed supply. So we, our protocol, we, and, and again, what is a protocol? It is a, it's like a criteria.

It's like a set of standards that says like these are all of our non-negotiables. And it, and it goes through a variety of different, uh, criteria. So we say like, Hey, you can't ever use a corn Cornish cross bird, to your point about the chicken of the future and the industrialization, like that bird living, sentient animal respected to death.

But it is not a bird that is biologically engineered to thrive. Mm-hmm. In any condition. Yeah. Certainly not in the conditions that we want, which is birds outside on pasture, having a symbiotic relationship with the land that they're on. That is also a bird that is engineered. To thrive on industrial corn and soy, and we wanna [00:25:00] find alternatives to that.

Um, it's also a bird that's, you know, engineered to be chronically ill and generate disproportionately large breasts and, and not have proper organ or bone development such that it can't live as long as the lifecycle as we want. So we say no corners, cross heritage breeds birds where their genetics were optimized for things like health flavor, nutrition, not cheapening a feed conversion.

Mm. Um, and so they better, you know, again, they, they check boxes for us. They better fit our system. Um, we don't sex chicks, you know, like, so we're not, you know, sexing of chicks is, um, at one day old animals on a conveyor belt. And, you know, I either want all females or all males 'cause I want per perfectly homogenous, perfect consistency, perfect predictability in my system to, again, drive costs down across the board.

So if they don't. If they're not the right species, they just roll off the end of the conveyor into a grinder and they get macerated or they go into a gas chamber and get gassed or you know, whatever, ineffective, inexpensive way, we can [00:26:00] kill 50% of all of the chickens that are hatching, um, for, you know, for convenience naturally.

Um, and you know, to us that just seems like bullshit. So we have males and females no sexing on the ground together. Also, don't you think that birds should live in Absolutely. You know, if we're trying to as best as, as best as possible, replicate nature, have both, both sexes represented for some obvious and maybe less obvious to all of us reasons.

Um, you know, again, reminding ourselves too, that chicken or jungle foul, they're descendants of Southeast Asian jungle foul and they're not, they're not cattle. So pasturing them as we would ruminant, grazing migratory animals is not the same as a bird that probably would prefer to be in a tree or in a, you know, so like we have to give them some place to.

To call home and get up off of the ground and be familiar. Um, and, and so, you know, we allow both fixed barns and mobile range coops, but we wanna approximate something that's more evolutionarily appropriate for chickens. And so if you're in a fixed barn where, you know, they go back inside of a building each day [00:27:00] to stay safe from predation and elements and all of those things, they want that, that is a welfare issue.

If they don't have the ability to do that, um, that's why in the wild, you might think of turkeys going and roosting in the same tree every night. Um, but you know, also, we don't wanna confine them to a barn where they're living in their own phil shoulder to shoulder. They don't get sunlight. They have this, you know, they're not roaming, scratching, doing the things chickens wanna do.

So we want 'em to go outside. But you know, if you just open the doors, they're likely not to go outside all their food and water and protection's inside. So we require, um. They have sufficient food and water outside for them to roam. That there'd be planting schedules and protocols to make sure there's vegetation and bushes and things that both can help with cycling nitrogen, but also, um, giving them something to eat and giving them shade and protection and safety.

There needs to be, um, structures out there for them to hide under for weather or for predation, et cetera. There they're asked to, you have to pull them outside. They gotta wanna be out there, you know, they're gonna, they want to, they want to thrive as well as we do, but you put 'em out on a, [00:28:00] on a patch of dirt and, you know, they're just, they're just fodder for birds and death from above.

Um, and so we dictate that, but also in the mobile range co. A lot of these mobile range cooping systems that, you know, technically meet a definition of pasture, they're also confined. We're like confinement free, you know, so like the doors have to open, it's fine if you want, have a coop that moves as long as it has these elements.

Also, the doors have to open, and also there has to be feed and water and things outside. Again, for the same reason we want them. Foraging. We want them ranging. Um, and, you know, I think the list goes on and on. I think a really interesting thing, the USDA says something like, you know, maybe as much as, or potentially more than 30% of the product in the market labeled as antibiotic free, as antibiotic as testing positive for antibiotic residue in the meat.

Really interesting. Um, you know, obviously the load or amount matters, but regardless, there is some of the properties of those antibiotics that [00:29:00] get imparted into the meat are imparted into the consumer of the meat as if taking, you know, a small, a small amount of antibiotics. And I think, look, we can talk about antibiotic free versus subtherapeutic and all of these other things, but you know, ultimately if consumers are being told something's antibiotic free, it should be antibiotic free.

And the way the system works is just signing an affidavit that says, we didn't, we didn't do it. Hmm. It turns out that there's dishonesty in the system such that a third of the, a third of animals labeled in the market as antibiotic free of antibiotics. So what do we do? We test every flock we take. Yeah, sure.

Trust but verify. Um, and we send samples of meat off to labs to confirm that there's been no, no foul play. Um, at, at cost. Um, our birds live longer, um, which allows them to develop more properly. There's a welfare component to that also. Um, it'll, it means that there's more nutrition imparted into the meat, better flavor.

Um, there's longer rest cycles between flocks so that the, the ground and the land can recover. Um, and there's a list that just keeps going on and on. All this nuance we'll never convey [00:30:00] on the front of the package. We'd limit chemical use, um, in the, in the raising. So it would technically meet the organic standard.

In fact, we'd exceed the organic standard on antibiotics. 'cause I think organic allows you to treat eggs with antibiotics, but not, but not after one day old and we don't have any antibiotics. Um, and again, the list goes on and on. And then we launched the program. And this is where things get really interesting.

We were like, okay, great. Yeah, we'll do all of this. Um, and, and by the way, the claim that we do to try to make everybody happy, because as we've talked about before, everybody in the poultry industry, you know, is very polarizing and there's a lot of infighting and a lot of crabs in the bucket. And while we have more in common than not, folks, you know, disagree on small things and it's like, you know, all out war.

So we, we chose a claim that is not pasture raised and not free range. 'cause I think both of those are inappropriate and misrepresent what's proper for chickens. We chose a claim that is free to range with unrestricted access to pasture. I think it's [00:31:00] more intuitive. I think it's more truthful. I think it cuts through.

Semantic legal, technical jargon, bullshit. And I think it's just like, hey, these birds can range. Yeah. Which a lot of mobile range coop systems can't. Yeah. But they're also not on land 24 7 'cause they have a barn in some, in some of our growers have the barn that they might go back to. So that is unrestricted access to pasture.

Meaning they're allowed to go out on pasture whenever they want. When, so long as it's safe, as in during the day. Mm-hmm. And during, you know, when it's not, um, you know, a blizzard or whatever. Um, so, so on that point, you guys are really in that sense, mimicking. 'cause the, the labeling stuff, I think can be so confusing for the consumer.

But what you guys have done with saying free to range and then also having access to go back into the barn, it's basically saying, Hey, this is like what a chicken would do in nature. If they had a tree accessible to them, they would hop up in the tree. We give them just the freedom to live like a bird.

But what a chicken would not do in nature is [00:32:00] roam across a a, um. Crop land or a pasture. Mm-hmm. And, and subjective live on and live on the ground in a new location every day. Mm-hmm. That is not what a chicken would do. And there's ecosystem services provided by that. And there's a certain, I think there's coolness to it too.

I'm not disparaging it. I'm just saying that's like, that's part of the challenge of the, of, of all of this nuance, like pasture at raised as a claim has value in the eyes of a consumer because of the perception of it being better in this context. It is applied to convey to the consumer this system is better, even if it's misapplied.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. But like, how, how, I mean, how am I gonna reeducate a consumer on this? Let's just, let's just call it pasture raised and get, and give ourselves a thumbs up for it. So again, I think there's benefit. I I, I, you know, I'm not gonna disparage that. I just like, Hey, I'm willing to work with mobile range coops as, as we do, but like, I wanna make sure that, you know, it's gonna be.

Appropriate for the chickens, and I wanna [00:33:00] make sure I wanna have a confinement free operation. Mm. And they're, you know, and, and, and, and I think that's, I often try to think back to like, I don't care about what I can technic what, what's technically correct or we can get array with, I'm like, what are consumers expecting?

What are consumers desiring and how do we better deliver on that? Even when it's difficult to get credit for it? Yeah. And we're not perfect on that regard, but I think thinking about things from that perspective, you know, keeps you honest. Yes. Um, and you know,

yeah. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll leave it at that. 'cause I don't want to, I don't wanna come across as belittling, you know, what other folks are doing, but yeah, I just think like people, I think you want animals that are out on, on land and not in, in a cage, however, whatever shape and however that cage might move.

Mm-hmm. Uh, anyway, all of that to say getting back to feed and the off-farm impact. And so like, these are all things that we're doing that are massive and incremental. I think, maybe not individually, but collectively. Mm-hmm. To what's consistent in the, in, in the industry. [00:34:00] And then off the farm, you know, we wanted to be as regenerative as possible.

And it turns out there's, um, been a lot of, uh, uh, as, as regeneratives have grown, as we talked about in the past. It's, there's a lot of different opinions on it, and there's a lot of certifications and there's a lot of greenwashing and there's a lot of things where like, regenerative is not, regenerative is not regenerative.

Mm-hmm. And our definition of regenerative is very much different than a lot of other people's. I, I would say in, in a, in, in, in the sense that we are supra drastically superior, and there's a lot of products on the shelf that label are labeled as regenerative that we would not consider regenerative. And our current chicken product would absolutely qualify to be labeled as regenerative, I think probably by any certifying body.

Mm-hmm. But we do not put regenerative on the label. We don't think that it's regenerative 'cause we haven't fixed the off farm net, net holistic end-to-end impact that it's having as far as the inputs of, [00:35:00] of, of the animal and the, and the, and the life cycle. Um, so, but the reason is like, you go to feed and it was like, okay, we want, you know, feed that's coming from a regenerative system.

It's like, what does that mean? Well, you know, what are the six principles of regenerative agriculture? Obviously we could cite those. I'm sure your consumers have some vaguely familiar and we don't have time to go through all of 'em, but you know, the first one is limit chemical and mechanical disturbance.

So try not to till the hell out of the ground and and destroy the environment and ecosystem and all the life on the land. And also don't engage in chemical warfare for the same reason. And, and, and spray herbicides to kill the plants and fungicides to kill the um, um, microrisal networks and insecticides to kill all of the.

All of the life that is in the invertebrate form and, and, and then fertilizers and all the rest of the things that go on and poison all of us and all of our waterways and lands and reservoirs and oceans and so on. Um, and oh my goodness, it doesn't exist. You know, you can find regenerative feed that [00:36:00] is chemical free.

Um, and, and to do that there is intensive tilling. And so, you know, I can give you examples of where that's good and bad in the, in the most extreme application. And as it turns out, the greater, with greater scale, the most extreme of the application. And, you know, I can, I've been to farms where you're an organic farm that are 40,000 acres in size and it's been, dozens of tractors have spent over a week tilling it.

And the only thing left alive is. I don't know, nothing over like 50 something square miles. Wow. And all, you know, that top soil's gonna erode away and you know, there's gonna be challenges with it, but there's not chemicals being used. I'm not saying that sarcastically. I'm saying, you know, there's not chemicals being used.

And then the inverse is also true. There's examples of folks out there that are out there doing [00:37:00] incredible work on no-till. Um, but in order to do no-till, they're using massive amounts of chemicals. Um, and there's sort of this like, you know, zero sum. It's either or, you know, pick your poison. And I'm like, there is a middle ground.

It's just hard. Mm-hmm. So that's where we're gonna go, but we can't let perfection be the enemy of progress. And to get this program off the ground, we have to start somewhere. And in an ideal world, and we have a lot of work and we may not be able to achieve it. And, and we gotta think about like who we're building this program with.

We can't pull the rug out from under them. We have, we have to, we are committed to supporting farmers and ranchers and supporting consumers and walking a fine line. 'cause sometimes and, and championing and representing both, there's, there's difficult nuance to navigate. Um, so we gotta build these systems and, and, and, and be thoughtful of the implications to everybody that, uh, is, is, is impacted meaningfully.

Um, but in getting it started, it was [00:38:00] like, well shoot, if we can't have our ideal, which is probably like corn and soy free, regenerative no till cover crops, multi-species, um, obviously no chemical use, yada yada yada, which isn't, which wasn't available that we could find at the scale. And by the way, when we have, we have suppliers across the country getting, you know, where you gotta grow this in multiple places.

That's part of the big challenge of feed is. Not only you have to, you have to grow it in, in near proximity, but you gotta mill it somewhere and you gotta be able to supply it. And, and, and again, like just very, very, very complicated. What would be our minimum standard or our minimum bar. And it's like, I guess if I have to choose, I'm gonna go back to that decision point.

What is, what's the consumer thinking? And like, at a minimum, the consumer thinks that we're not poisoning them. So we chose organic feed to start. Um, because I wanna make sure that when we put something on the plate for a consumer that I can say, um, I, I we're, we're not supporting a system that uses pervasive chemicals in order to put food on your plate.[00:39:00]

Also across our entire, by the way, there's a lot of ways that chemicals can get into the field. We all have chemicals in us. Yeah. The three of us in this room are probably insane by, by common standards. Totally. What we go and do to try to avoid. But like, it's in our brain matter. It's in our blood, it's in our urine, it's in our, you know, the breast milk of the women.

We love our. And, and, and, and it's in the water systems. It's in the air, it's in, you know, so there's only so many ways that you can limit exposure, but you know, at least we're just not gonna, we're not gonna put it on the food of our food. Yes. And so that's another claim that we've launched with was, is organic fed.

Um, which has really, which has been a whole, a different can of worms. You know, like we're going back and forth with the USDA and on whether or not we can even say that on the front of package. You know, they approved it, but then it's, there's a bunch of different bodies in the bureaucracy and it's going through channels.

And some, some even of our large natural customers are like, you can't say that. And it's like, what would you rather us not be organic fed? What, how, what, what incentives do we want? Do we want to offer something that's [00:40:00] superior to the consumer and get credit for it? Or, or not? And like, let's talk about, you know, so I think we're innovating and disrupting.

Yeah. I think we're gonna have, we are making great progress there. And I think the, um, the, the relevant parties involved are gonna, are gonna find a path there, which could be really cool and open the door for other people to do the same thing. But also like our whole pro the problem is 'cause the whole program isn't organic and they're like.

Well not just make the whole program organic. And, and the reason for that is nothing would change about the program. The ability to scale the program would be hamstrung considerably because you have to then do certifications and audits on farm and in processing facilities that would pass those certifications, but would have to do them at significant cost.

And the product therefore would be in lower supply at a significantly higher cost on the shelf to consumers. Hmm. So it's like it would make marketing easier, but it would make the product less accessible, both from a supply and a cost perspective. [00:41:00] It would make it less, make this protocol less available to support farmers and ranchers and nothing whatsoever would change.

There would be no value in outcomes or practices. So like. It's gonna be harder to not do this, but this is the right thing to do. So we just went with organic fed out the gate. Yeah. Which is, that's kind of where the crux of the challenge with that, that where there's back and forth and people are like, Hey, wait a minute, how you can't do that?

Wait, but that makes sense. But we haven't thought about it, but nobody's done it, you know? And so like that's where we're, where we're working through it. But again, that's a starting point to then be like, okay, so now can we work with the regenerative? How do we go from more, you know, chemical free to also limiting chemical or limiting mechanical disturbance and then incorporating more cover cropping and then incorporating different feed mixes so we can do testing.

'cause you know, just taking corn and soy outta the diet is, can be a welfare issue for the birds too. Yeah. You know, and we gotta find alternatives. And it has to be seasonal and it has to be regional and it has to be, I mean it's, it's, it's hard and it's complicated. So, so it's not corn and soy free and it's not [00:42:00] regenerative.

Um, but that's the starting point. And we're, we have, like, we're literally building out and working with those certifiers to build out multi-year plans for what transition might look, look like. Understanding that it isn't. Linear or predictable, and it'll be iterative and it'll be learning along learnings along the way.

Mm-hmm. But like, the only reason we're doing poultry to begin with is to do that. So that's happening. Yeah. Man. This might be one of the most nuanced topics we've ever covered on the show, but I, I like what you said too about like, essentially like, take perfection off the table. That's impossible. And we're gonna continue to make iterations and make the best possible product that we can do for you as the consumer.

But replace, but, but, but to be, it's, it's, it's a, that's such a, that, that can be such a cop out. Don't let perfection be the enemy of progress. So we're gonna compromise Yeah. And dig our heels in. Mm-hmm. Let's be clear. Progress is the point of emphasis here. So there has to be a reasonable starting point.

There has to be non-negotiables and a minimum bar, which with what? Like that we will not go below. Yeah. So it took us two years to build the system that [00:43:00] established a minimum bar that we would not go below, which happens to bera dramatically beyond where the industry is at today. Yeah. But we don't start even here if we don't acknowledge that progress is required.

Yes. And therefore we can, we can make certain compromises with the understanding that we are endeavoring towards progress on those, not simply justifying, let's get comfortable and never change. That's a great point. That's where most people go wrong. Yeah. It is so easy to use that as a cop out. So I appreciate you clarifying that.

I guess my question for you is, 'cause you said you had the one farm that went outta business, which was the single point of failure for you guys. Was there any part of you from a business standpoint where you, Taylor and Katie just said, Hey, we're, we're a red meat company. People know us for our game as well.

Like, do we really want to even continue chicken because it's so difficult? Or were you guys just like, no, we have to bulldoze and figure this thing out because consumers need this product.

That is exactly how our conversations have gone for years. Like there was just, there was no option besides you [00:44:00] guys getting back into the chicken game. No, no, there was options of not getting into the chicken game. Okay. It's just like, this is so screwed up so hard. Yeah. It's so bad and so difficult. And the gap in expectations, particularly around price, is so grand that it's insurmountable and we need to focus and we need to, and there's so much other opportunity elsewhere and you know, like we pro you know, maybe we shouldn't do it.

Um, or we have to compromise on our values to find a starting point. Maybe we shouldn't do it. And you know, the other side of it is again, and the reason we went for it ultimately is I think, I think that we need to earn the right to have a voice in the space. And that, I think there's, I think it's very important that we educate, educate, educate consumers about poultry.

And I think that we really do have an opportunity, maybe even more so than in ruminants to help enlighten consumers and raise awareness and, and, and raise standards and practices. And the only way we do that is by participating and then meaningfully. [00:45:00] Provide alternatives and, and crack doors open that others can follow through.

And, um, and we can bear the brunt of the risk. Um, and, and we just have that role in that position, like I said, do something difficult that nobody else, um, you know, can do that, that needs, that's important and needs to be done. And I think this is a space where like we check those, those boxes and so, you know, I think this is like, maybe, maybe not dissimilar from starting force of nature at all.

I don't really wanna do it, but we gotta do it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, not that I don't want to do it, but like, it's hard starting businesses is risky. Most fail. We talked all these things we talked about, but like, this is just like, it's just, it's so important that, that, that it's worth all of the, the challenge to, to, to pursue it.

Um, and then we could go into all of the reasons why that there's what we went into that decision, but yeah. Well it's so, it's so cool hearing you talk about disruption 'cause the problems that you guys are addressing. Are decades and decades and decades old of [00:46:00] just issues that have built on top of each other within this space.

And so for you guys to take 'em head on and just say, Hey, we're gonna disrupt here, and come at it from like a practical standpoint of like knowing that the consumer has gotten used to this legacy industry that is, you know, you know, used to kind of, you talked about, you know, feed and all the standards that have just lowered quite frankly, and you guys are coming in and saying, Hey, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna take our time on this and, and really make this a problem that we actually end up making an impact on solving, I think is to your guys' credit, just incredibly admirable.

Um, I'm curious like what timescale do you guys think about solving this problem on since years, many years ago? Years. And like, that's probably the big one of the biggest challenges is we haven't even scratched the surface on the nuance in this, in this conversation. And, and yet everything we've talked about, it's extremely difficult to get credit for.

It's like we're, we're in a closet doing the right thing, doing hundreds of [00:47:00] right things that will never show up on a label to a consumer for the benefit of that consumer, because I know it's what most or many of them are, are wanting, expecting, or hoping for. Mm-hmm. And so how the heck do you position yourself where, you know, I, I always give this as an example.

You guys have been to Rome Ranch, and we're talking about poultry here. So we'll just use Turkey as an example. You've been to Rome Ranch, you've seen their turkeys. Have you been to Turkey Harvest? I have not been to Bison Harvest. Not, I'm going s Anyway, tangent. We're not. We're gonna, we're try to pull, it'll be the one tangent I'd try to pull us back from instead of like diving into.

Um, but you know, they have such an incredible poultry operation doing really, really, really cool stuff. Exceeding the industry standard on every measure, not at scale. Um, but they have turkeys running with bison, eating incredible feed, living incredible lives out on the land. Uh. We could go on and on and on about how cool it is up to, up to, and including the point where literally wild Rio grande turkeys in Texas have volunteered to into their flock [00:48:00] and live with their turkeys.

'cause they're like, this is legit. This is like we're what a happy place? Have five star hotels and then they're breeding their own turkeys and building this thing and it's all heritage and all of this stuff. And they, and they do it 'cause they have small community harvest at the end of the year. Um, and if we were to take that, if we were to take their turkeys and, and, and put it in a ground brick format, a one pound of ground Turkey and, and, and put no labels on it, and then take the, take an um, you know, go to a leading natural food grocer and take a pound in a brick form of their organic Turkey and put it in an unlabeled package and offer those two, those two choices to a consumer and say, Hey, this one on the left is organic and it's like 6 99 and this one on the right is not organic and it is $15.

What do they choose? An non-organic one every time? Yeah. They, they choose the organic one every time. Oh, they choose the organic one is the price? There's no, [00:49:00] there's no, it's just a, it's empty packages. Mm. They just, all they see is $15 with no, yeah. With a non-organic claim. Or they choose organic for 6, 9, 9.

Yeah. Yeah. Now, now this is where you were going. This is why, this is why we were not on the same page of ourselves. Now we pull the curtain back. Mm-hmm. And we say, this organic Turkey came from this factory farm, or this Turkey never saw outside. Everything was curated. It was this awful environment. All these breed issues.

The, the antithesis of everything. I just let off the call or this conversation talking about with chickens very much, I would just not, not just say not ideal, I would say kind of horrifying to the average consumer. Mm-hmm. But it's organic. And then here's, here's Rome Ranch and Katie and Taylor and the dogs running around with the birds.

Now which one do you choose? They choose the $15 one every time. Yeah. 'cause they're like, that is appalling. The organic is appalling. But like, that can't convey the way our system works. That doesn't, that'll never get conveyed on the shelf. The, that is the story of nuance. And nuance doesn't have space in a world where claims are commodified.

'cause [00:50:00] organic is a hundred percent a commodified claim. All these claims are commodified, grass fed, natural, on, on, on down the list. Past year, raise, free range, cage free. Um, and so like we're, we're having somewhat, we're, we're driving consumer focus onto the wrong things, having the wrong conversations.

We're trading off the values that are represented by nuance. And so like that's the place where we're operating and we're trying to figure out how on earth do we ever get credit for all of this work when we are the brand out there. Fortunately, we've established force of nature and we have a loyal customer base and a following.

And we're able to do more than offer a blank package that conveys there's something premium. But ultimately, like we, we definitely have chicken on the shelf where it's twice as expensive as something next to it and it looks inferior based off of claims. But on nuance, it's superior on a thousand different measures.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. What an interesting space to exist and what a diff, what an interesting place to be trying to think about how do we disrupt this commodity industry where consumers have been [00:51:00] indoctrinated into this system and trained to act in a way that is actually counter to their own desires and interests, and where very large, very scaled operators that are extremely industrialized can benefit at the expense of small regional farms and ranches that are doing really cool stuff that may not translate to a claim on a package.

Mm-hmm. Well, I think in 2025, I don't know if this is a great answer, but it's probably. Leveraging conversations like this in social media at scale, right? Where you have the best opportunity to reach hundreds of thousands, if not millions of potential listeners that could be customers that really care about you guys unveiling the curtain and showing the differences in regards to how you're doing things versus these conventional greenwash brands that they're probably purchasing from the grocery store, right?

So you have a conversation like this on Rogan's podcast or some of these other big guys. It would be really interesting to see the ripple effects of that potentially. But that's just my, that was my immediate thought process. No, it makes sense. And I mean, that's why [00:52:00] heck, we've doubled the size of our marketing team just this year alone.

Mm-hmm. You know, like, makes sense. That's, that's the most obvious, yeah. That's the most obvious, um, path to approach it. But, you know, even still that story is re is gonna reach less than 1% of the population. Yeah. And there's a cost to it. Mm-hmm. And, and so we gotta figure out how to reach more people with, on without talking over their head or, or lecturing them with the right message and the right.

In the right ways that they're consuming. And so, and that ultimately ends up driving traffic. At the end of the day, we still have to reach the traffic at the store that we're not driving into the store. Um, and we gotta, we gotta talk to them at the shelf and we gotta find some way to think different.

Like, again, going back to why does, why does it say free to range with unrestricted access to pasture on the package? Why does it say organic fed on the package? Why are we taking on those fights that are disproportionately difficult? And some people look at us like, why are you doing this? This is not, you know, it's, it's hard.

Don't do that. And it's like, well this is, this is part of a much bigger thing and [00:53:00] it's an entry point. And like, should we be talking about organic on our package and, and paying? I mean, there's an example where, you know, one of our, we, we had a, a part, I'm gonna try not to be specific 'cause some partners just don't like us talking about 'em.

Some love us to talk about I and say their names, but I, you know, I don't, I don't wanna give too much away. But, you know, we have a partner that, that is in the ruminant side of the business and they're like, Hey, we looked at being organic. We have a 30,000 acre ranch. Pretty big. The cost of certifying the ranch was gonna be $90,000 a year.

That, that ranch sends about 600 animals a year to slaughter. Maybe 900, somewhere between six and 900 animals a year to slaughter. Do the math, what's $90,000 on 600 to 900 animals? Huge, significant. When we're talking about dollars per pound translation to the consumer to have a certification that, again, wouldn't change their practices.

Mm. What does, what does organic. Organic is huge. It's important, $60 billion. Industry consumers trust it. They per, you [00:54:00] know, it, it tells them something important. This is better. They may not understand why, but they perceive it to be better and they're willing to support it, and that's important. I'd say most consumers think it means chemical free.

So do we have to go through that to say like, Hey, we built a protocol that says that our, that, that, that we're, you know, this is chemical free. Do we have to have a third party will for a certifier that may similarly drive. No change in practice, but dollars to the consumer to get a third party to certify it.

To say that it is no feedlots ever. So that ranching, that ranching partner Robbie, so they would pay 90 grand for that certification a year. And there's nothing else that they would have to, they, they would literally just come out, they would qualify. It's just, they needed, they just qual. So there's nothing that would have to change.

No, man, it's a good racket. It's so crazy. I would love to just be, I don't wanna call it a racket, you know, like I wouldn't, I I, I don't wanna mis misrepresent it. Right. I mean, there's, there's a role for that. These are milestones and importance. And I think there's a lot, like, I still go to the grocery store and buy organic [00:55:00] produce and buy, I do all is equal.

Like, I, 'cause you know, I, 'cause I don't want them using chemical Yeah. On my feed. And I think that there has to be like, how the heck, I mean it's, it's, it's, it's a measure of objectivity. You know, a certifying body says like, yeah, I'll take your, you know, I can take your word for it. And again, and we end up with 30% of an things saying antibiotic free.

Have antibiotics out. Yes. Because we're taking your word for it. It's an affidavit. I promise. Mm-hmm. You know, certification kind of addresses that. So like, it makes sense. It is logical, the intention is not wrong, but I think the, um, the execution and the ultimate outcome actually can, in some cases take us away.

Move us further away from the desired outcome. And I think there's alternatives and I think that it's worth spending our time exploring those and, and doing the more challenging work of like, Hey, how do we live in the nuance and find an alternative that can be objective and can be, you know, legitimate and, and, and, and doesn't [00:56:00] necessarily open the door for flagrant fraud, but also drives more positive outcomes in supply chains and better serves producers and consumers and doesn't, you know, make supply unavailable or price product outta the market where it's inaccessible for, you know, folks in different, um, socioeconomic classes.

Mm-hmm. It's so interesting. I would love to just be a fly on the wall at the Force of Nature boardroom office, just hearing you guys talk about like, you know, alright, we're putting a better quality product out there, we're taking some of these claims off this, this is a risk that we're taking. Um, and just you guys basically saying, well, we're gonna figure out a way to like still educate through this and improve the standards.

Were you guys, but it's also, sorry. No, no, go ahead to interrupt. But it's like also part of our thesis, like yeah, we built it from day one to be this, right? Yeah. To be a, to operate outside of the, the status quo and to [00:57:00] say, we're gonna be force of nature. We're gonna aggregate, we're gonna build these supply chains and we're gonna take on these issues and you can trust us because we're gonna give you transparency and, um, have these conversations and dig into the nuance.

And, and, and maybe. Maybe in doing that, we can avoid having to go play the, the claims game and, and, you know, commodify ourselves and put ourselves in a position where we can't be as, um, be the thought leader and, and make the changes that we wanna make and be as progressive because our hands are tied based off of, you know, pricing ourselves outta the, out, outta the category.

And then that, that can make sense in the context of force and nature, but how does that scale outside of force and nature? Again, there's just, again, there's, there's, there's a lot to think about, but that is like, what, why, why we exist. And I think right now part of what we're doing to address this is coming up with like our own standard and our own initiative around transparency, where we talk about, okay, well how does [00:58:00] on poultry, on beef, bison, et cetera, how does our, how does our programs stack up against animal welfare approved, mm-hmm.

Certified humane. Um, you know, other, other top leading welfare. What about how do we stack up against organic non GMO pasture? A how do we stack up against, um, you know, on, on down the list of each of these, all of these pillars, feed living environments, et cetera, et cetera, and compare on a matrix basis, like what does our standard deliver on versus is it third party certified to do that?

Mm. Um, and the answer is ideally it will never be third party certified. 'cause that limits growth, scalability, access, and adds cost. But we wanna be able to get credit and explain to consumers like, Hey, look, it's, it's fair to ask the question, why is it not organic? Let me explain what it is. Yeah. It's better, it's better than on all these measures.

And maybe it's not better than on every measure but's, you know, in many instances it is. [00:59:00] Um, and so I think like doing things like that can be an alternative, again, to being forced into a system, like I said, that doesn't necessarily serve the best interests of the consumer or the producer. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's interesting to think about just the whole nature of labeling.

'cause you guys are in effect turning the brand into the label. Like where it's like, Hey, we, we do, we're building this, we're earning this credibility by the choices we're making that are difficult, but over a long enough period of time, we feel we can build that trust. Yeah. And we can say, take our word for it to a certain extent, you know, but, but that's not reasonable to expect that to convince every consumer, nor should it.

Yes. We, we, consumers should be giving more scrutiny, giving a lot more scrutiny to the industry, and it doesn't scale beyond us. Yeah. So how do we figure out how to do this in a way that again, um, is authentic, is legitimate, um, does serve a, a more sc skeptical [01:00:00] consumer and also, um, can be leveraged elsewhere beyond our own shores.

Yeah. Such that it's not only about us. Yeah. That's kind of the, the key. Robbie, what are the, a lot of your relationships like with your ranching partners that you guys source from? The reason why I ask that is, you know, Harry and I have interviewed so many ranchers and it seems like so many of them are literally dying just for, for distribution.

And so I'm just curious, like with the work that you guys are doing and to really support them and get their products out there at scale, you know? Yeah. What are, what are a lot of those relationships like? And I'm sure they're all different too, but

it's a, it's a weird question. I mean, there's, 'cause it is so, there's such a di, such a big spectrum. I mean, generally you have to understand that like our process for working with a rancher, you know, a lot, there's a lot of companies out there. And again, not to disparage anybody, the most well-meaning companies who don't appreciate all of the nuance, um, you know, that will.

[01:01:00] Say like, okay, it needs to be regenerative and grass fed and pasture eggs maybe. Mm-hmm. If you guys were gonna launch a meat bar, I don't know, whatever you guys are gonna do, jerky, that'd be where you would probably start. Yeah. You'd be like, what do we do? Okay, well get somebody that has these certifications or we'll sign these affidavits and go on.

And, and what I think what we figured out is that like paperwork is pretty cheap. Um, and, and, and certainly imperfect. And so we go, we require a lot more paperwork. And again, our protocols and expectations and standards are a starting point that is very robust. And then we go meet, we go, we go do audits ourselves.

We go meet people, explore, learn their why, understand, make sure we're like-minded. Make sure they're in it for the right reasons. Is this a transactional relationship? Is it, do they wanna raise the bar every year? Um. Are they excited and passionate or not? So like, you know, generally when we're at the, when we're at the point where we're working with somebody, there's been a thorough mutual vetting.

Um, we send team team members out. We do monthly calls, we do annual calls. I mean, we're managing the relationship, the expectations. Mm-hmm. It's a rollercoaster and we're in it together. And, [01:02:00] um, communication and, um, values alignment and, and long-term thinking is really important to that. You know, I think some cons, some, some of our suppliers are like, Hey, we're already doing all this stuff.

We're happy to sell to you. And, and that's great. And, um, you're a reliable customer for us. And, um, and we can scale with you that stability. Um, some folks are like, Hey, I'D and, and, and there's a lot of people that are. They have their own brand. They do d they do e-comm, D two C. They do retail. They do, you know, there's folks like that that we work with.

We're buying your boxes. There's other folks that we work with where they're selling us whole animals and they're like, yeah, I actually don't even want to get on a video call. I just, I have a flip phone. And anything that takes me out of the pasture with my animals and requires me to interact with human beings is undesirable for me.

So Wow, so, so quiet. Take wide spectrum. Yeah. And some folks were actually, they're going into them, like I described in the chicken program. We're asking 'em to change their [01:03:00] practices. And there's some folks where they're at scale and they're like, Hey, look, I know you qualify as grass fed, but this, uh, this feed cake ration that you're using in the winter months has a binder in it that is actually grain based.

And so we're gonna need you to change that. And nobody else would ask you to do that, but you know, you know, so like, it, it's varying degrees. There's people that exist. That we're a cornerstone for, and there's people that exist completely health, fine, fine without us. And, and, but I think generally most folks are, again, values aligned and they recognize the role that we're playing.

We're not putting on a cape and saving every single person that we work with. And, um, at the same time, I think we are an important part of a large body of good actors who are, who are helping do what we talked about before, raising awareness and accelerating demand and, and improving access both for suppliers to consumers and for consumers to suppliers, um, in a way that creates demand signals and rewards, both ends, um, of the supply chain and [01:04:00] both sets of front, front lines.

Um, and so I think that, you know, Mo, you know, we have had suppliers that we've worked with for years that have no longer been suppliers for us. And we've had, we were bringing on new suppliers every year and um, you know, I think by and large we've had. Extremely longstanding positive relationships, um, with, with our supplier network.

So I'd say that's a good sign. Yeah. Um, and, and, and for those that we're not working with, it's probably 'cause they're so healthy, that situation has turned like emerged that they can evolve and it's like, Hey, this is awesome. We're still best friends. And some instances it's, it hasn't been that because there's been differences of opinions.

Um, but, you know, I think our, I think I would shortly describe that as like, all our relationships are positive and we're playing an important role for most of our suppliers. And we're not even talking about processors. And almost all of the same things can be said for processors of which I think that we have, you know, 10 or so different slaughter [01:05:00] facilities or further processing facilities spread across the country where the same sets of issues exist.

You know, they need, they need, they need an, they need meat or animals or pounds to work with. They need to, they need to continue exist to serve their community. Um, and I think that we've grown in. Help them improve and bend a cornerstone and, and have positive relationships with them most. We still work with some, we don't, we add more every year.

Mm-hmm. Um, so I dunno, it's an interesting question to think about. Yeah. Like when I get on the phone call with our suppliers, we're all smiling and laughing and having a good time. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. That's, do you see a, any disparity between us suppliers and, uh, foreign suppliers that you guys use?

Like, just in terms of quality and expectations around standards? Oh, super interesting. Um, so just for clarification, um, venison and elk and our supply chain comes from New Zealand and, um, so that would be an example of an international supplier. Um, the, just, they have a, they have a very mature industry there and the standards and practices [01:06:00] dramatically exceed anything that we could find domestically.

There's just not really a domestic supply chain of innocent and elk that's, um, that would, that would, that would meet our standards. And there's a bunch of reasons we even got into cent and elk, but, um, you know, that's where those, that's where those are coming from. That's, and that network is really interesting.

Probably 70% of those of our cent and elk supply is farmed. And, um, 30% is actually wild harvested in these really cool programs to kind of remove invasive species from the land. And then on, on, on bison. Bison is unique to North America, and you know, the majority of our bison supply is us, but we have some Canadian suppliers and, you know, the bison industry is so tight knit, like it's just the bison industry Yeah.

Know, so it's like, it's can, it's Canada and an international supplier I guess, but like, yeah. And, and, and, and anybody that does bison into us, like not really, but technically, um, there's, there are some animals that are crossing the border there, very minority of that supply. And then on beef, um, we are, [01:07:00] the majority of our supply comes from the us um, but we have, um, a good amount of supply that comes from Australia and, and, and a very, very, very, very small amount in New Zealand.

Um, and it's so, and it's so interesting, the differences in nuance. I'm so glad that we have that supply structure set up. Um, it's fascinating that, um, how misunderstood these industries are by consumers. 'cause it's like, you know, on one hand, like I'm an American. I have a grandfather that was shot down over France and another grandfather that was shot in the battle of Guam, like, I bleed red, white, and blue.

I think this, all the stuff that's going on from a nationalism perspective is rooted in the right set of values. I'm so proud to be an American, and if I could have everything American sourced, I would also, I want to be, I, I'm, I'm sickened to buy the stat that we, 87% of the red meat that we do a generation ago.

And the reality [01:08:00] is we don't produce the amount of meat that we need to satisfy demand. And we live in a, in a global, um, economy with global supply chains that are necessary. In fact, again, we're about to get into a bunch of nuanced boys. Um, in fact, um, the, the herd of beef in the us, the amount of animal, you know, we call 'em animals on the hoof in the US is, is, is as, as low as it has been in 70 years.

So we're at like a generational low in terms of living animals. Um. Meanwhile we have demand growing. Um, and so, and the reasons are, there's been a drought, um, for a few years that sets things back on animals that can live two to three years. You can imagine the ripple effects that take, you know, five or more years to work their way through a system.

You have interest rates at all time highs, well, not all time highs at extreme highs at the exact wrong time. All these guys are running on credit. They're having to [01:09:00] buy animals at prices they've never seen before. Huge risks. And that may be causing them to exceed their credit lines or whatever.

Meanwhile, prices are at an all time high. You know, people think prices going up 10% or so a year for the last three years is crazy. Like the look at the USDA data, the price of a calf calf doubled in the last four years. Yeah, geez. So, you know, imagine your raw material cost doubling. What does that mean to the end, the end price?

What does that mean to your borrowing base of animal, you know? Um, and with prices at an all time high, you have folks kind. Reducing herd numbers are like, well, I'm gonna sell while I'm high, instead of holding animals back to maintain the herd. Mm-hmm. So, thank God we have alternatives to supply. Also, what's interesting as well, the herd is at a 70 year low and does definitively need to grow for all the reasons I just me mentioned domestically the size of an animal slaughtered and the US has grown 1% a year for each of the last 70 years.

Wow. So what does that mean? We have like these insanely [01:10:00] large animals that are also holding an insane amount of fat, and turns out the US has an insatiable de desire for ground meat and particularly hamburgers. That's not, that doesn't actually exist elsewhere in in, in the world. They call it mint. And they think it's weird that we eat so much of it.

Um, we call it like the foundation of our diet. Oh yeah. Certainly in this room. Um, and in order to get reasonable ground meat at a fat to lean ratio, uh, say 80 20, 85, 15 90 10, we have to import lean meat 'cause they don't have that same reality that that exists. Also in the case of both New Zealand and, and, and, and, uh, Australia in our context and a lot, a lot of meat comes from South America too.

And, and the ruminant side of things. Um, interesting facts on that. But, um, those economies are like 80% agriculture and like 80% of agriculture is export. I mean, the entire country of Australia has the [01:11:00] population the size of Texas. I didn't realize that. So they have a huge amount of supply of beef 'cause they have all of this land and they're their own, their own context.

So like, it's funny, I was like, I was visiting suppliers in Australia. Again, part of our whole initiative, authentic own relationship, legitimacy validation. And they were, you know, we were talking about this concept of like rising nationalism in the US and perceptions of international and how we try to think about finding that balance and towing the line.

And they're like, yeah, it's interesting, you know, everybody, like, they love Americans, they love the American market and the consumer, they're proud to be serving Americans. And they're like, you know, honestly I want American farmers to succeed. I think that we play a role in a healthy system, but like, I feel like I have way more in common, this is an Australian rancher.

I feel like I have way more in common with an American rancher than I do with an an, an Aussie living in the city. Wow. And I feel like we have the same struggles and I wanna see them succeed and, and all of them have been to the US and done and worked on US ranches and, and you know, it's, you know, so it's like really, really a cool and interesting perspective and [01:12:00] community.

Um, but I think that we, as, I think that, that we've done a disservice in some, in some respects with some consumers and kind of villainizing supply that comes from outside the us. And I think in some cases those, those critiques are valid, like on country of origin labeling. If somebody puts product of USA on a package that didn't, that did not come from the U-S-A-I-I all, I liken that to stolen valor.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a criminal exercise to me. I don't care if it's technically legal. I also don't think, um, that working with, uh, international supplies in the way that we are should, should merit a scarlet letter either. You know, I think that like they're doing incredible things. We have transitioned and, and brought in certifications and built supply in Australia on hundreds and hundreds of thousands of acres and, and taken huge swaths and major players in an industry and transitioned them to beginning to adjust their practices to serve a market and demand at a global scale that has meaningful impact.

Going back to the point on these third party [01:13:00] certifications, right? Mm-hmm. Like, why do something if it doesn't actually change anything on the land? Yeah. Well, we're changing things on the land and creating hope and opportunity for farmers. Meanwhile, at a time when costs of US beef or skyrocketing, um, you know.

US beef was really inexpensive in the late teens, and Australia was in a drought and their beef got really expensive. That tends to operate in offsetting cycles so we can balance our costs where we can justify bringing on more domestic US producers. We are growing with our US producer base, um, and our US sourcing dramatically because we can offset costs by continuing to, to work with our foreign partners, even though again, we're more, we're majority US source.

So it's, I, you know, I think that we're able to serve our producer partners by growing and our demand and continuing to allow them opportunities to scale and bringing more folks into a system that gives them access to consumers and stability. Meanwhile, we're also serving consumers by keeping, you know, costs and, and, and control as [01:14:00] these two cycles oscillate and the value of the dollar in foreign currency, translation plays a role and.

So it's really, really, really interesting. But, you know, I think like for us to serve our mission, we always, like, even going back to our original mission, it's like create a global regenerative supply network. Yeah. Um, and I, and I think that we're doing that really well while also finding balance in some of these polarizing issues.

And I think doing it in a thought, in a thoughtful and, and, and a thoughtful way that I think serves our producers and serves our consumers, and that ultimately we're really proud of to be transparent on this call. And I mean, I see you nodding your heads, and I think that when we talk about it, it's like, yeah, that's obvious.

That makes a ton of sense. Mm-hmm. That's how, that's how it should be done. And that's, that's, you know, if I go back to again, my, my put on my consumer hat and I'm like, what do I, what do I want and expect? It's like, yeah, I wanna see, I wanna see people winning in our, in our backyard. And it's like, as, um, as demand for grass fed has grown, as, you know, whether [01:15:00] it's Brazilian or Uruguay, we don't work with, but they.

Our big grass fed players in Australia and New Zealand as supply and demand and, and, and importing those has grown. Again. Like I said, we've gone from a, a few hundred to many thousand grass fed producers in the us So it's like, if you're looking at it from a macro perspective, we're building scale, we're grading supply, we're building awareness, building a consumer base, and ultimately there's a, there's a supply, there's a, there's a pie chart that represents a beef consumption and, and how it's getting supplied.

And like my, my objective is to see the pie grow, but more importantly than that, see the portion of the pie that goes to these good actors grow. Mm-hmm. And that's actively happening. So it tells me that the approach is working. Yeah. You just talked about supporting good actors. I would love to, does that answer your question about what it's like?

Yeah. Absolute. Sorry. Absolutely. I mean, I know I meant like Totally, yeah, no, I'm just thinking about what you said about the cool act too. I mean, it was repealed, what, eight years ago? Was it? 2016 that it was repealed. I don't remember the exact date. That sounds about right. But [01:16:00] yeah, it was based, I think actually, I think it was the country of Brazil that sued the U Somebody sued the US Yes.

And said, Hey, this is creating an un unfair competition. And it was really around the labeling part. I mean, I, I, I think there's the commonly understood part of that act, and there's the misunderstood part of that act, which we can get into the nuance if you want. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You just, you're just making me think about you.

You're saying that there's so many decisions where you're asking yourself, you know, what do, what do I think the customer wants? And I'm like, well, I think the customer wants transparency. I mean, I would guess. 99% of Americans don't even know what the cool act is, or the fact that it was actually repealed.

And imagine we're talking, a lot of this conversation has been around spreading the right education and unveiling the curtain. How would they react knowing that the meat that they think was harvested in the US and, you know, these, these cows were raised in the US were really raised some offshore country overseas, and, um, they're essentially being deceived by, by the companies that they're buying their meat from.

Well, I think I, again, I think like if that is your value proposition and there's companies out there that, that [01:17:00] is like their, that's one of their core premises, then number one, be legitimate. But mar you know, they're, they're marketing it and they're positioning their product base on it. They're like, we're USA sourced only USA processed USA raised proud American farmers.

You know, like, that's amazing. Like great do that, that's important to you. And so for that consumer that that's a priority, they have that available. That's, that's the, that's available to them. And they know, they know who and where they can go to do that Now. If you're trying to do that and it's illegitimate or in the case fraudulent.

That's what I'm referring to. Yeah. Yes. Then, you know, to me that should be, that should be prohibited, and I think that's where the overwhelming majority of people would align and agree. Um, I don't think however, that every single package of meat sold should have the sourcing be required to be disclosed on the front of the package.

Not because I don't think that would be interesting, but I think that it would be [01:18:00] functionally, logistically, practically, uh, punitive. I don't think it's, I don't think it's appropriate. I don't think it's, I don't think it's necessary. I don't think it actually benefits the consumer. And I think what it ends up happening is you have segregation of supply chain, um, pack.

I mean, it's like I could create a package of bison that's like this product could have come from Canada or could have come from the USA, like, okay. But like, I don't think it worked that way. I think you had to say where it came from, like, this came from Canada, or this came from the USA, so now I gotta go through and segregate and build out systems.

Like, okay, where does it, does it, it doesn't even matter, but I need people and plants and warehousing and, and SKUs and barcodes and segregation and systems and cost. And I might not be able to fill the orders because I might have only, you know, not enough of each one. I mean, it just gets, like, it, it, it's so much more complicated than people realize to, to be able to say specifically where it came down to.

And ultimately it might require ear tagging and RFIDs. Mm-hmm. [01:19:00] Um, which farmers don't really want in America, which are ubiquitous elsewhere for, for, for really interesting sets of reasons. And so it's like, I, I, I like, I just don't think it's, yeah. I just don't think it's necessary. And I don't think consumers expect everything to come from the us.

Like we know most of our fruit and produce has grown. Yeah. Abroad, and we know our technology stuff is being manufactured abroad and on, and it's like, when it's not being manufactured abroad again, it's like, Hey, this is an Amer, like Tesla are American made. Everybody knows that that's what's cool about 'em.

Mm-hmm. Um, that becomes a value proposition that they can anchor into and celebrate, and that's great. But to disrupt supply chains in a way that would, again, not really be meaningful to the majority of consumers, but everything I just described would again, limit supply and increase cost. Mm-hmm. Why? I don't think that part of it is, is what, what the common consumer would expect.

I think it's, again, just don't, don't lie to me and take That's, yeah. When I want to, when I wanna support American farmers and you're telling me you're supporting American farmers, don't lie to me. [01:20:00] Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's, that's, that's where I, I think that the majority, and that's the common sense place where this should be, we should be focused.

Mm-hmm. But again, every, there's a lot of other things implied by how that was originally. Constructed that I think that, you know, most folks don't understand. Mm, mm-hmm. What does, uh, what's does success look like for you guys in five years? Where do you guys wanna get to?

You know, I think obviously grow. I mean, look, we have to continue to grow the business in order to drive impact and in order to substantiate an economic and financial business model that is worthy of replication. You know, you know, we can't be like a, a not-for-profit and have, and make the case that this is where the industry needs to go.

It's like the, the, you know, again, from a, from a people, planet and profit perspective, we need to exceed on all on, on, on all measures and order to get the attention of the majority of the industry and the incumbency to say, Hey, there's, there's incentive here. Worth replicating what we're doing. [01:21:00] And we can serve consumers and do it in a, in a way that, um, is financially and economically justified.

I think, you know, more specifically. Um, you know, obviously we have, we're getting more and more involved in, in traditional proteins like beef and poultry. So I think having a much bigger, um, role in, in, in participation and driving change in those industries where kind of like you've, you guys have said there's more regenerative players.

Mm-hmm. We were talking about regenerative when nobody was talking about regenerative. Yes. And now there's more. So great. Like, I'd like to see more people talking about some of the stuff we talked about on this call. Mm-hmm. And as it relates to poultry or beef or, or, or otherwise. And so hopefully we're having more of an, we have more of a position in those industries which has generated more of a ripple effect where other people have more position in those industries that I would call good actors and allies.

And where consumers are more aware of issues and doing a better job of advocating for themselves and sending demand signals that justify. Um, for folks on the other end of the supply chain to make [01:22:00] changes that, um, that they can all, everybody, um, can be proud of. Um, you know, I think even, even more specifically, it probably means us going from, you know, where we were a few years ago, predominantly incremental stuff like ancestral and exotics and natural channel to again, more traditional stuff and more conventional channels.

Having engaged with and built loyalty and following and, and, and, um, support from the early adopters and the mavens and, and found ways to, you know, to your point on like, how do you, you know, just through messaging and content you have to reach people. Mm-hmm. So having, you know, finding ways to reach more of the conventional shopper with messages that are appropriate for them, and having our product distributed in ways that are more accessible for them, that.

So that, you know, again, that we can, we can continue to, to serve consumers and then continue to [01:23:00] drive scale and expand and, and, and serve the mission. And again, if we achieve that with those consumers in those channels, then others, once again, can follow in the size of the pie for all of the good actors grows.

Um, I hope that at some point we, we, you know, like, again, where our, where our specialization is and like our sweet spot is, I, I think the storytelling and engaging and messaging and marketing and aggregation and focus on the consumer. I, I hope in five years from now we will have built some ability to influence and built relationships and the opportunity to influence some regulation and get, get to stuff on the, um, the, the USDA, the farm bill, the politics, that kind of stuff.

I think there's opportunity for change there. It hasn't been the focus. 'cause that's, I, I don't know. I am, I have no experience with it. Yeah. You know, and so, you know. I'm focusing on driving. I'm, I'm focusing on demand creation. Mm-hmm. And building a, a system to supply some of the demand I hope that we're creating, and I think in the [01:24:00] future we can, you know, hopefully influence the policy that can continue to, um, help give more reward and credit and justification, um, for the change that we wanna see from a mission perspective as well.

Hmm. Yeah, it's probably pretty amazing to think about. Just, um, how much the movement has progressed since 2019. Do you ever think about just the faith that you guys had, just like you guys really hugged the cactus to start this company, to like build a regenerative supply chain from scratch, especially in 2019, like no one was talk, like barely anyone was talking about seed oils and vegetable oil consumption in the big four Packers.

At least from my perspective, I was barely even in the weeds on it back then. I was just starting to go carnivore and experiment with my macronutrients, but I didn't know any of this stuff back then and I feel like I was like a one percenter. So I just, I don't know, I just, maybe more of a comment just around like the courage that you guys had and like the, the right bet to make thinking about where things are in 2025 now.

Sorry, I I uh, it's one quick [01:25:00] fun tangent 'cause I know you guys amongst will appreciate this more than anybody. I was touring a, a slaughter facility, uh, recently and there's this, like, there's, there's a section of the point where they have all of this. Industrial machine equipment. Mm-hmm. And at the base of this area of the facility, they had all of these like pony keg size canisters.

And I went and looked at 'em and it was all canola oil and it was the lubricant for all of the machines there. You's awesome. You're seeing an, this is a big, this was a, this was a big plant too. This was not like these people being scrappy and thinking outside the box is just like, it's just what we know.

It is machine. It is, it is industrial machine lubricant. It just labeled as canola oil. It was just funny 'cause it looked like it could have just been at a, at a, at a Walmart mar at like a bulk supplied retailer or something. Like huge tubs of, of probably in every, probably in every kitchen in America or most of 'em, seriously.

Commercial kitchen. Um, dude, it's crazy. Like I think we, I think we are now something like working with 400 [01:26:00] different, over 400 different unique farms and ranches who are employing over 2000 individual people. And impacting over 3 million acres of land across the proteins, across the supply network. Obvi, you know, the overwhelming majority of that being, you know, in, in the USA, which we wouldn't be working with international suppliers if it wasn't providing the opportunity to do that very thing.

Mm-hmm. And grow in the USA. Um, and, um, and again, just to think, like, to take a step out from our business and it's, and it's direct impact and look at the, you know, some of the indirect impact or things that are going on, like I said, you know, back in 2011 or 2012 when we started talking about regenerative and nobody knew what it was to seeing it being talked about by political candidates and on mainstream news outlets and, um, you know, some of the issues that are, that we feel like we've been screaming, you know, getting on, on a soapbox and screaming, uh, on deaf ears now being mainstream concepts about how to improve health and wellness and how our food systems.[01:27:00]

Are a major component of improving health and wellness and how that then supports the very underlying things that we're trying to do as a driving factor and how consumers are rallying around that. And you're seeing continued positive trends and, and, and support and advocacy suggesting that yes, these things are delivering on their desires and are resonating with them.

So like you're hitting it at all, at all levels and all angles. And it's like, man, we're, the environment just seems to get continually more, more challenging to operate in, but also, uh, you know, all of the, the, the key ingredients you want there to suggest that things are going well and it's in the right direction.

And, and, and hope is, um, you know, in confidence should be growing and increasing are also represented by, you know, the change that we've seen, not just since force of nature in 2019 or since our last conversation three years ago, but since we started on this journey. Mm-hmm. Now close to 15 years ago when like nobody knew what we were talking about.

Yeah. Are you, um. Just looking at like from, just [01:28:00] from a policy standpoint, like there's so much money that goes into farming and ag, but it feels like regenerative captures such a small portion of that. Um, I'd be curious to just get your take on like, do you think that people empower people who are being elected into government are, are thinking about, you know, how can we get dollars into the hands of suppliers and people who are actually doing the work, um, here in the us It's such a, the industry is just so interesting, even from like, just like looking at like the schools out there.

Like a lot of the schooling is around, you know, how to use chemicals, not how to work the, like work the land. So I'm like, will more dollars be poured into whether it's subsidies or, you know, programs? Yeah, I mean I think like the land grant universities and who's providing, who's subsidizing the dollars and therefore who's, who has influence over the curriculum and.

Um, the farm bill itself [01:29:00] and the incentives that it creates. And, um, who has the most, um, aligned base to support the lobbyists and the most dollars to support the influence that drives policy in Washington and all of those things? You know, I, I think, I think that, again, this is not my arena, um, and, but I, but I definitely see momentum mounting where I think that, you know, while, while nothing will be perfect, I think that a, a playing field can be leveled.

I think it may not necessarily in every, maybe, maybe more dollars available to getting farmers on the land so that we can, you know, return and increase the amount of farming and ranching we do domestically. Mm-hmm. Which I, I do think that, that we need to do, and I think particularly ensuring that as farms turn over, they, it lands in the hands of.

People not, not hedge funds and that the people that really wanna be on the land and working and that they have [01:30:00] access. 'cause the cost of land and interest rates and all these things make that, make that really difficult. And I think the subsidies that make doing it really big and at scale and that, that that unfairly cheapen food and some cases offer less than the cost of production, I think that can be affected where the playing field is a little more leveled for the folks that aren't getting the benefit of those subsidies.

Mm. So even maybe in some cases it's the presence of rewards and in some cases it's the absence of rewarding the Yeah. The, you know, for lack of a better term, evil alternative. Yeah. Um, and, and then again, I just think like the fact that folks are talking about it therefore drives some ownership and accountability and, you know, even just what's going on with food dies, you know what I mean?

Like Yeah. I think, I think some of us. Might take the perspective that it's not enough, but I think the recognition of like, man, this has been going on for decades and it's important, and it's a starting point. It creates momentum. And momentum is a very powerful force at that, at that sort of scale. And it's the, and it's, it's the first in a series of dominoes, [01:31:00] but that somehow you always gotta figure out how to get that first one over.

Yes. And so I think making sure that we don't, again, villainize all of the imperfections of everybody and fail to celebrate when progress, when it's made. Um, you know, I think like recognizing the, the value and, and, and stopping to smell the roses of progress and then putting our heads back down and going back to work to continue to raise the bar, but not undercutting our very, our own very efforts whenever all of our preferences aren't realized simultaneously.

Yeah. Um, I think that'll go a long way to, you know, continuing to give consumers a voice and giving and, and ensuring that that voice is met, um, or heard. By people with the influence to, to, to drive change at a policy and regulatory level. Um, you know, again, these, the challenge with these big complex systems like the US government is the checks and balances and the segregation of departments and agencies and, you know, the health sectors not [01:32:00] related to the agriculture sector.

And so, like, there has to be some level of collaboration, and that's good and bad in, in a variety of ways. But I think with patients where we can see where things are headed and that's, and if we can take a political lens and stop worrying about ours versus Ds versus whatever gang or affiliation you have and focus on like, Hey, what's in the best interest of people in my neighbor, regardless of where we agree and disagree.

I wanna see life expectancy and, and health span increasing. And I wanna see kids doing well and I wanna see more people enjoying and thriving. Um, and, and, and, and you, I, you know, I hope we can find some way to align regardless of affiliation on. On those as key criteria and not making it so polarizing and, and whatever.

And, and you know, again, I, I think that I have a lot of hope and I, and I see a lot of progress and momentum being built there, and that gets me pretty, pretty darn excited. Mm, that's awesome, man. What, what's the best way, Robbie, for people just to connect with you and just all the work that you guys are doing, of course, of nature?

Um, [01:33:00] well, you know, I, I'd say, you know, we do have that, that podcast we talked about where hope grows. Mm-hmm. We don't release a lot of episodes, but I think that we have a few really interesting episodes to point back to on, on, on this one. So I'd go check out, you know, a few years ago we started, we launched a podcast called The Truth About Chicken, and this week we launched another one.

It's kind of like our follow up, um, to what's going on with chicken. And we go in great detail about that. Um, but you know, we have a blog and I think we're doing some really interesting stuff on, um, testing. We're spending a lot of money testing. Everything that we do over a period of time for micronutrients, macronutrients, phytochemical compounds, fatty acid composition, amino acid composition, bioactive compounds like coq 10 and creatine and toine and all the, all of these really cool things that are being talked about and just trying to understand how do we crack the code and sort of open source the conversation for farmers and ranchers to talk about not just meat as superior, but pat, you know, these versions of meat as superior.

Our initial data samples are [01:34:00] insane, like our supply chain is exceeding the, the standard for, for meat on. Um, really critical essential nutrients and minerals and fatty acid profiles. Wow. It's pretty exciting stuff. Wow. It's too early to really like, pronounce definitively, but, but, but, but certainly really important results.

And also within all of that testing, we're testing for agriculture chemical residues. Dang. Um, all right. This is gonna be our topic for podcast number three. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So it's like, and, and by the way, like all of our tests are, are, are, are, you know, are not, are not showing levels of agriculture, chemical residues that that would, that would be of any level of concern.

And so it's like, again, like no credit given for that. Yeah. But like, it's the right thing to do to make sure that are, are we getting the right outcomes outta what we're doing? So really exciting stuff there. But we are gonna be writing blogs about this and so long way to get to that point, our website we're building out and slowly adding to this like what is the force of nature standard?

And then the transparency initiative that sort of translates our protocols and our standard to maybe familiar proof points [01:35:00] like I described. How do we stack up against certain welfare certifications or organic or what. Um, so you can find that kind of stuff on our website, post a lot of content on Instagram.

We're starting to do more and more, uh, videos on, um, on, on YouTube and, and, and some of the, the common social channels. Mm-hmm. So, um, yeah, for, uh, at Force of Nature meets on Instagram, force of nature.com is our website and where we do blog. I, I think our email is, is pretty great. Um, I think a lot of emails out there are just selling at you a hundred percent.

You guys, your email's very different and I hope that we're not selling at you. I hope we're unapologetically letting you know we have things you can buy, but I, I hope that we're actually raising awareness and, and connecting you to issues that are important to you and, and hoping you better advocate for yourself and make sure that the system you're supporting is the one that really does align with your values, regardless of how the package might be designed to deceive you.

Mm-hmm. Um. So yeah, maybe, maybe start there. Yeah. Love it. Do, do you guys have a retail tracker for people that wanna buy the too? [01:36:00] Oh yeah. Sorry. Can they find a retail store on the website? Yeah, we, yeah. So we have, on our website, we, we, we actually sell direct to consumer. Um, and, and, and so you can order the stuff that we make and then yeah, at the bottom of the webpage you can go down to a retail tracker and it'll tell you exactly what products we have in retail.

And I think we have, I don't even know, 40,000 something distribution points. Yes. So we have a lot of stuff available in every state and a lot of different types of products and um, definitely want you to support our retail partners 'cause they're the ones taking a leap of faith on us that these crazy things that we're trying to do and Yeah.

And disrupt our, our meaningful to consumers. And, and, and, um, so yeah, check us out there on where, on where to get the products and. Um, and we'll continue to do farmer highlights too. And like I said, videos and blogs and content and try to let folks know like where there's people that we're actively working with that, if you have access to their products, just go buy from them.

Yeah. Hmm. Well, Robbie, thank you so much for coming on. We appreciate you joining us for part two. Uh, we'll link to all that stuff in the show notes, but thanks again and, uh, thank you guys for so much. Like everything that you guys are doing, just paving [01:37:00] the way, I feel like you guys probably don't get nearly enough credit for just the, you know, the risks that you guys are taking and, you know, the, the boldness that it takes to make some of these changes happen and, uh, it's inspiring.

I feel like brands, I, we need more brands like Forced Nature. We need more brands who are doing things the right way. So appreciate you. Yeah, appreciate it. Thanks a bunch. Sorry for all the rambling. Hopefully though nuance nuance because it was round two nuance, the nuance, nuance, nuance, baby. Hopefully I, I got, I made those point just succinctly as, as I'm able to, so No, it's great.

That's what our audience wants, man. So thank you so much brother. Cool. Thank you both. Appreciate the opportunity. Thanks man. Yeah.