#76: Dr. Anthony Chaffee (@anthony_chaffee) - Why We Have Evolved To Be Carnivores

What's going on, Meat Mafia? Welcome back to another episode of the one and only Meat Mafia podcast. Here's the quick bullet points for today's episode. On today's episode, we had on doctor Anthony Chaffee, and we talked about eating a carnivore diet for performance, reversing chronic diseases through diet, dispelling the agendas pushed by vegans, misconceptions associated with the carnivore diet, and the significance of a species appropriate diet for human health. Doctor Anthony

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Alright. Now for the episode. Enjoy. Doctor Anthony JP. Welcome to the one and only Meet Mafia podcast.

We're excited to have you.

Yeah. Thank you very much for having me. It's good to see you guys.

Yeah. We were, we were pumped that we finally got to meet you at KetoCon as well. So we're going from in person to virtual. We tried to do something in person, but, hopefully, we'll have to take a trip out to Australia next time to do a live session, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah. That'd be awesome.

No. But we're we're really excited to have you on. I mean, I know that, we think that it's gonna be a great episode. We know that for you, MD by trade, neurosurgeon, high level athlete, you're an all American rugby player. You've done a ton of amazing research.

And also just putting out content explaining why humans biologically were meant to be carnivores. We know you fought a carnivore diet for the better part of ten years, and our audience is gonna gain a ton of value from this episode. So I think as a starting point, man, we'd love to just learn a little bit more about your background and how how you started to kinda, like, nutritionally dive down this rabbit hole.

Yeah. Well, thanks. Yeah. Hopefully hopefully, peep people do find it useful, and, I mean, that's the whole whole idea. Yeah.

So, you know, I I'm obviously young. I'm from America, but I I've lived all over the world. I I played sports, you know, all my life. Got very lucky in that, you know, the number one MMA gym in the world, arguably, is was a few miles from my house, AMC Kickboxing in Kirkland. My trainer, Matt Hume, is, you know, one of the top ranked fighters of of all time, really, one of the top trainers of all time.

And, and just just a really nice guy, and he was my my coach there and my wrestling coach as well. So I had a lot of, very good influence on on athletic background. He was a very, very, you know, strict person in his, athletic endeavors and his training, but also in his diet. You know, he did not drink. He ate very clean, and he, you know, was, was very regimented in that.

And and it wasn't hard. You know? He just he just liked performing optimally and and being the best that he could, and and that was the the way to do it. And so I really admired that. And then I got into rugby after that and and ended up, you know, stops, doing MMA.

I I, you know, I only, like, trained. I was I was waiting till I turned 18 so I could actually, you know, start fighting. But, you know, I never actually competed in that. But then I got into rugby, and as you say, I was I was an all American, in my second year, and, and then continued on to play professional rugby after that in, The US, Canada, and England. So nutrition was always very important for me.

And because I was always interested in the biological sciences and just science in general, that was something that that really spoke to me. So I like taking biology class. I like taking, you know, botany and cancer biology and nutritional courses because of my interest in medicine, but also my interest in in athletics. And I wanted to be able to feed my body, you know, exactly what it needed to to, you know, kick ass. And when I was, taking cancer biology at the University of Washington in Seattle, I, you know, I was taught that, you know, plants are living organisms, and they like to stay living organisms.

And so they have defenses just like any other living, creature. Animals can run away or fight back, for instance, and plants can't. They're stationary, and so they have to use other modalities. One of those modalities is using defense chemicals and and actually just being toxic. You know, we know this in intuitively by the fact that if you get lost in the woods and you run out of food, you can't just eat any random plant.

You know, most of them will make you very, very sick or even kill you. We were looking at this from a cancer perspective, and we were actually studying the amount of carcinogens that were just in normal vegetables that we would eat on a daily basis. And, you know, we learned that and this is this is twenty two years ago, mind you, so we've actually discovered much more since then. But at the time, we discovered or we were, you know, taught that Brussels sprouts had a 36 already identified human carcinogens, that mushrooms had over a hundred. Spinach, kale, lettuce, celery, cabbage, cucumber, broccoli, you name it, these things were had over 60 or 80 known human carcinogens each, and they're quite abundant.

You know, there's research going back, to 1989 with professor Bruce Aimes from UC Berkeley showing that the natural pesticides and insecticides and actual the the natural defense chemicals in plants outweighed the pesticides we sprayed on these things industrially by a factor of 10,000 and that the naturally occurring poisons were orders of magnitude times more likely to cause cancer than the pesticides we sprayed on them, which is why we still have pesticides. We're actually looking to ban them until this research came out and just basically showed that this was a drop in the bucket. So we were we were quite taken aback by this. And I remember thinking in my head, I'm like, but, you know, but vegetables are still good for you, though. Right?

And, you know, he just looked at us and must have just, you know, realized what we were thinking, and he just said, you know, I don't eat salad. I don't eat vegetables. I don't let my kids eat vegetables. Plants are trying to kill you. So I was like, right.

Screw plants. I just stopped eating them. And, you know, I I defaulted into a carnivore diet just because I wasn't going to eat any plants. And so, you know, it's just like, I I was just started eating eggs and meat, and that was it because that that those did not have plants. And I felt amazing.

I I never felt better, and I didn't realize it was, you know, that doing it at the time. Also stopped drinking at that time during the rugby season. Obviously, that was a huge, boost to my, to my my athleticism and my recovery. And so I chalked up most of that to the to the drinking side of things. But, you know, years later, I sort of looked back and and discovered more information.

You know, see, obviously, you know, doctor Sean Baker's, work and his interview on Joe Rogan, you know, five years ago, that, you know, humans really are carnivores. That's just the kind of animal that we are. And I I look back, I'm like, oh, that's what I that's what it was. That was the difference. And when I sort of slipped off of that, I noticed within a few months, I was like, you know, why don't why don't I feel as just unbelievably amazing as as I normally do?

And I I didn't really know what it was. I was like, man, I'm just not pushing myself as hard. Am I just you know, I'm about 25 now. Am I just over the hump, and I'm just dying now? And, like, I I honestly thought that.

I was like, well, maybe that's it. But, of course, that's nonsense. You know? It was it was because I slipped off the diet, and I started incorporating some plant foods back in. You know?

You're just like breaded chicken. You know? And that was enough to screw me up. And and since realizing that, I've just gone absolutely strict, carnivore, just meat and water. And, you know, very rarely I'll have a bit of dairy, but it's almost it's almost never, and it's only used as a condiment.

I wouldn't just, like, eat just dairy on its own. And and since then, I've just I've had the exact same results and and benefits that I noticed in my early twenties when I was playing professional rugby. I felt like a superhero. I couldn't get tired. I couldn't get, sore.

I couldn't, you know, I couldn't run out of energy. I could just go go go go go. And my body just just, you know, performed and responded, better than at any point in, in my life when I wasn't eating like this. And so since then, I've I've really dug into the research and and and started asking questions and checking in the literature. Because if you have, you know, if you have competing theories, you know, you should be able to find evidence with which to test them again.

So I've just asked questions and started diving into the literature and see what we know, see what we can prove, and see, you know, what what, is left to be, understood. And, you know, that's solidified my understanding of the subject and and convinced me that, you know, we really are carnivores as a species biologically, which is what all the best evidence shows. And that not only that, but that if we apply this in medicine, we can actually reverse so many diseases that we that we, you know, think are chronic issues that aren't chronic issues. I I argue that they're actually toxicities. You know?

We're getting poisoned by these defense chemicals, and we are getting the manifestations of those of those poisonings. But we call them disease. We call them diabetes. We call it heart disease. We call it cancer, autoimmune diseases.

They're not. They're they're toxicities and malnutrition, and you can you can see this evidence of this by the fact that when you remove this influence and just put people on a meat and water diet, these issues go away. You know? And I'm I'm not just and I'm not, you know, saying that sometimes they go away. I've not seen them not go away.

And there's that large Harvard study with over 2,000 patients, and, like, every single person improved by significant objective markers. You know? And a lot of people, if not most people, recovered completely. Now there's such a thing as damage done, and you can you can permanently harm yourself. But you will get rid of the active poisoning, and you will stop getting worse.

You will certainly improve a lot. And that so that's what I try to incorporate into my practice now as a doctor. Is there a case to

be made for having, like, trace amounts of these toxicities in your body to help you, like, build up some sort of defense, or are you just of the belief that full removal, like, just don't even don't even need them at all? Yeah.

I mean, maybe. But, you know, I I think the people that argue for the hormesis side of things, you know, should really, really need to, you know, provide some evidence on, you know, does it provide benefit, which chemicals provide benefit, and what dosages do they provide benefit. Right. And, you know, because it's gonna be it's gonna be a a real tight margin. And, you know, plants have thousands, if not tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of different chemicals in them.

You know? You want you and one of these things acts hermetically at dose x, and maybe two leaves of, of a tomato plant provides dose x for that chemical. Well, what about the other 10,000 chemicals that are screwing with you? Are those all also hormetic? Are they in the right dosages?

Are they too much? Are they too little? So, you know, it's it's I think it's a bit more complicated than the oh, it's probably it's probably a hormetic. There's probably hormesis. Okay.

Maybe. But the burden of proof is on on the people advocating for that. And I have yet to see any hard evidence that is beneficial at all whatsoever.

Mhmm. Doctor Chaffee, what kind of evidence did you come across in your research in your twenties that made you think, damn, humans really are evolutionarily meant to be carnivores. That was so compelling to you.

Well, you know, it it's mostly, the anthropological data and the the fossil record. You know? So there's, you know, the the stable isotope studies are, you know, very, very interesting. You know, this looks at, you know, certain isotopes that that remain stable over time, and you can you can actually look at the bones and see, you know, you know, how much of this is in or in these bones. And if you have a buildup of these, then you you'll actually see you can actually track that up food chain.

Right? So if you have, you know, just like, you know, like heavy metals and and fish. Right? You have, like, the lower level fish. They're getting a bit of mercury or whatever, and then another fish eats that.

Another fish eats that fish. Another fish fish eats that fish, and then, like, a shark eats that. And so they have, like, they'll have higher concentration of these heavy metals as you go up. So you you can do the same sort of thing with these stable isotopes and can actually tell, where on the food chain these animals are. And our ancestors, you know, for the last, you know, two million plus years, have been pure carnivores and have have had a higher carnivore rating than even other carnivores live at the same time, like lions, hyenas, foxes, wolves, because we were eating the lions, hyenas, foxes, foxes, and wolves.

So we were, again, top of the food chain. This is this is something that that we've, you know, we've been taught since since I was a kid anyway that, you know, we're apex predators, top of the food chain. How many apex predators do you know that eat a plant based diet? I mean, it's it's, you know, it it's, you know, it's contrary it's it's counterintuitive. It's like, you know, you're top of the food chain.

That means you eat animals. Mhmm. I mean, you eat all the animals. And so, you know, I've I've never seen a shark, you know, eat kelp for roughage, you know, and, and lions don't eat grass. So, we're not supposed to be eating these things either.

Other side of it is, you know, anthropologically, you have all these different different populations like the Native Americans, you know, in North America and and far northern reaches such as, you know, the Inuit, populations. These people were exclusively carnivores, and they actually lived to be great ages and, you know, by their own, accounts. But, you know, why why would we believe our accounts over over their accounts? You know? I mean, it was just people saying this is when I was born.

The Australian Aboriginals as well, you know, even even peoples in in Sub Saharan Africa, there are records of the of these guys living very great ages. And people say, oh, no. No. The all these people died in their thirties. Like, well, that's nonsense.

You know, average life expectancy from birth maybe because three out of five kids died in infancy, that's gonna pull down that average a little bit. But, you know, like the Zulu, nation in in the eighteen hundreds, for instance, they had a law that you couldn't even get married and have kids until you were 35. If Everyone died at 30, that's not really working, is it? You know? So, you know, life started family started in their thirties.

Okay? So so that's, that's a representation of of, of average life expectancy from birth, not actual, actually, how long do people live. So tons of these sorts of records, and they all ate meat. They all exclusively ate meat. And when the European explorers came around to the Americas, came around to Australia, they studied them.

And I have I've written many accounts, and they were saying they they only eat meat. They were very surprised by this. Why, you know, why don't they they eat all these other things? Try and give them bread, try and give them other things. They're like, no.

Absolutely not. Give that away from me. They knew which plants they could eat if they needed to, if they, were starving or if they needed to use something medicinally. And so people say, oh, they would use these teas, and they'd eat these things. They do these other things.

I'm like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When would they do it? How often would they do it?

They would do it when they had to, when there was need. And all the accounts that I've ever read of these early explorers and the missionaries that went to Australia and and native and, North America, you know, they all said that these guys just ate meat. That's it. And, you know, when they had to, they they knew which plants they could survive on. But as soon as they got meat again, bang, that was it.

And so, you know, they didn't get these diseases of the West as they called it. These diseases that only really showed up in European populations and the explorers populations. And they come in like, wow. These guys aren't really getting these problems. They're not getting gout.

They're not getting obesity. They're not getting all these these different problems. And, you know, now they're getting them, you know, at at many times the rate that Europeans are, and that's because it's not a disease. It's not diseases of the West. It's that, you know, we were eating plant based foods, as well as meat, and we were getting the toxicities, that we got from that.

Because native Americans and aboriginals in Australia and other populations, the sub Saharan African populations, you know, like the black population in America, because they don't they they didn't come across plant based nutrition and agriculture as early as, you know, say, you know, Caucasian, ethnicities, they they don't have as many resistances built up to these plant toxins, and so they get more sick quicker. You know, I I think that this is the reason why, you know, African American populations have higher rates of metabolic disease and blood pressure and refractory, you know, to medications. It's certainly the case in the Australian Aboriginals and certainly the case in the Native American populations. And so, you know, I I remember learning as a kid that, you know, when Native Americans were eating a Western diet, they were four times as likely to get obesity, heart disease, diabetes, cancer, and all the rest. I remember thinking, well, doesn't that mean that the food is causing the disease?

You know? Because if they don't eat the food, they don't get the disease. You know? And we eat the food and we get the disease just at a lower rate. You know?

And and what's a non Western diet? What are they eating that we're not and vice versa? You know? They they didn't tell me at the time, but, you know, it was it was a pure high fat carnivore diet. And so there are and and there's tons of other things too.

You know, since you look at it, you know, anatomically, biologically, you know, just how our body processes plants and fiber can't cannot break down fiber. We used to be able to we used to have a long elongated cecum. Now it's an appendix. That's because we haven't used it in millions of years. But back in the day, millions of years ago, it was much longer, and that was what fiber would pack in and break down into short chain fatty acids.

We can't do that anymore. You know, it's very simple. If your body cannot break down fiber, you shouldn't be eating fiber. You know? You're not designed to eat fiber.

You don't get nutrition from it. All animals that eat, fibrous plants can break down and are supposed to biologically adapted to, can break down fiber for nutrition to some degree, you know, some more than others, but they all can do it. So we cannot do that. That's because we we have not done that in millions and millions of years. And, and there's ton tons of other things we could go into if you're interested.

Yeah. I'd be curious because the fiber topic is one that clearly gets brought up a bunch for, you know, anyone who's gone carnivore and and takes the criticisms from family members or whatever. It's like, don't you need fiber? What about your cholesterol? What sort of things do you do you typically hear about from either, like, your family and friends or just, like, people who are trying to adopt the carnivore diet and just, like, hearing all the feedback from friends and family?

Yeah. You know, fiber and cholesterol are two of the big ones. You know? Like, well, what about fiber? How are you gonna, you know, take a dump?

Well, I don't know. How does a lion do it? You know? How does a dolphin do it? How do 66% of all species of animal do it?

Right? 66% of of animals are carnivores. Right? So, you know, how are they doing it? So fiber does not drive your digestion.

Fiber actually screws with your digestion. So it's not that you not even that you don't need fiber. It's that you don't want fiber. It causes harm. And so it can actually cause microabrasion in your gut lining, increased mucus secretion, increased inflammatory response.

It really does a number on people with, you know, inflammatory bowel disease like Crohn's or ulcerative colitis. As I'm you know, well, maybe you correct me, you know, if I'm wrong, but, you know, you have experience with that as well. But from what everyone's told me, that that absolutely just plays merry hell with their digestion. And, you know, not only that, but, like, I mean, there have actually been, you know, studies on top of that showing that that colon disease such as diverticulosis, that this is, the only things that are even associated but have a strong association with diverticulosis are increased amount of fiber intake and increased number of of bowel motions. You know?

So you're you're overworking this organ. You're using it too much, and it and it finally fails. So fiber fiber actually causes harm that you really shouldn't be eating. It all it also blocks the absorption of other nutrients. And so it it causes physical tangles and a physical barrier between the enzymes and the food and then the broken down food and your gut lining, for it to absorb in.

So you actually don't absorb all the nutrients that that you're supposed to. So that that's actually hurting you as well. And then maybe say like, oh, this is really good because you you can eat even more, but you're not actually absorbing it, so you won't get fat. I mean, like, where in nature is it an advantage to not absorb nutrients? You know, generally, when you're not absorbing nutrients in the wild, you you die very shortly afterwards.

So, you know, that that doesn't make sense from an evolutionary standpoint either. The cholesterol thing, you know, is is a big topic, but very, very simply, it's all garbage. You know? Like, the idea that that cholesterol caused heart disease is nonsense. That was that has been completely and thoroughly debunked in the peer reviewed medical literature going back to 02/2015.

02/2015, the journal of the American Medical Association, one of the top medical journals in the world, published a paper, from the University of California, San Francisco, medical school detail showing that there was, like, actual internal memos from the sugar companies detailing back in, like, this, you know, the sixties that, you know, they were paying off various professors, you know, from Harvard and elsewhere to falsify data and publish fraudulent studies to make it appear as a cholesterol caused heart disease when in fact it was sugar. And now we have actually very strong biochemical evidence, you know, from UCSF showing that fructose, you know, which is the sweet part of sugar, it's in honey, it's in fruit, it's in, you know, table sugar, that this has actually broken down in the same byproducts as as alcohol, and this causes a lot of the same problems as alcohol consumption, including heart disease. And so they had to sort of get a scapegoat and and and vilify something else, and they and they picked cholesterol. And, it's nonsense. We have we have hard evidence that it's nonsense, and we have hard evidence that these people were paid off, even though how much they were paid off.

$6,500 is about equivalent of, like, $50 now. Like, that's what their souls were worth. And, you know, and one of these guys was named, you know, head of the USDA, and he he was the one who authored and published the 1977 USDA declaration that cholesterol caused heart disease, and everyone should stop. You know? And then you had the Framingham study, which I was taught in medical school, showed that higher cholesterol equaled higher heart disease.

Wrong. Read the actual study. It concluded it it showed the opposite. Its results actually showed the opposite of that. The American Heart Association two years later misreported the Framingham study and claimed that higher cholesterol went went along with higher heart disease rates.

It's nonsense. It's complete garbage. You know? I I and it's and it's demonstrable. It's a matter of record.

So you know? And and people say that, oh, okay. Yeah. No. I get it.

You know? Fat's not bad. Fat's good for me. Cholesterol is good for me. Oh, but look at my LDL.

Like, what did we just say? You know? Cholesterol was never the problem. So why are you looking at your LDL? It doesn't matter.

You know? And all the big studies actually show that that higher LDL cholesterol, is actually associated with longer lifespan, less disease, longer, you know, independence and free from nursing home as as we age. So it's actually it's actually very good for you. You know, as as, doctor Ken Berry says, HDL is the good cholesterol, and LDL is the other good cholesterol. They're both good for you.

You you need both of them.

Yeah. The demon is the demonization of red meat is really a shame because I know for myself, like, we were just talking about this before we hit record. When I when I'm at asterisk, just red meat, salt, water, maybe some bone broth, that's when my stomach is by far the best. Like, when I was flared up with UC when I was 21, I was already going to the bathroom, like, 20 to 30 times a day. I couldn't keep anything down.

And then within two weeks of doing carnivore, I was, like, down to going to the bathroom twice a day, which is literally unheard of. Yeah.

You know?

And I would bring my steak into the office in my first corporate job. People wouldn't people were, like, fifty pounds overweight telling me that I'm gonna kill myself. So it's just it's funny, but it's it's honestly a shame though because there's probably so many people that could be curing these incurable autoimmune conditions or diseases by incorporating this approach that you're talking about. I'm sure it's something you've spent a ton of time thinking about.

Yeah. No. Absolutely. And, you know, this is something that, you know, we see in practice. Now a lot a lot of the stuff is is still anecdotal, but, you know, I there there absolutely is enough data and and literature to put all these pieces together and and start using this as a treatment modality.

And and and this is what I've done. And that's why I've I've done this, and I've encouraged other doctors to do this. And and there's certainly a bunch of other people, other doctors that already have already been doing this or have been, you know, gaining on, you know, you know, without my influence, which is great. And what we are seeing is that these people are just just just completely revolutionizing their health, reversing these so called chronic diseases, which, again, I don't think are chronic diseases. I think these are toxicities, you know, and and also malnutrition.

And and so this is this is what we're seeing. We're we are actually seeing people reverse diabetes come off their, you know, insulin medications come off their insulin pump. Certainly reversing autoimmune disease. I have yet to see an autoimmune issue that has not just just disappeared in the face of a carnivore diet. You know, multiple sclerosis, rheumatoid arthritis, Crohn's ulcerative colitis, Hashimoto's thyroiditis, you know, I everything.

I I've yet to see one. I'm I'm sure there probably is something out there that that that maybe won't respond as well to a carnivore diet. I have yet to see it. You know? So, you know, it is and and, you know, as as you know, you know, you see in Crohn's, these these are devastating, It's, debilitating issues.

And, and and they and they line you up for for serious disease. You know? Like, UC, most people with UC, they're they're gonna they're gonna be running into, you know, a total colectomy and having their entire large intestine removed generally in their twenties because it's almost invariably going to give these people, cancer if it if it's not controlled, and it's almost never controlled. And so that's something that that that we were taught in medical school that, you know, if someone has UC, that it's basically it's it's a matter of they're definitely gonna have to have a total colectomy and, you know, when to time it. You know?

And, you know, but that that's not something that's necessary.

You know? And I think something I've heard you speak about this before, like, the efficacy of these primary red meat diets, this isn't something new. I think you pointed to doctor Jay Salisbury's work from, like, eighteen hundreds talking about red meat diets, healing Crohn's, colitis, IBS. Is that correct?

Oh, yeah. %. Yeah. So so that's the thing. There's a ton of literature that we've just papered over and forgotten because of the weight of the, propaganda that cholesterol and meat are bad.

And so, you know, doctor Jade Salisbury, who who's a part of us for the the Salisbury steak. I always thought that was like a like a place name, you know, like Salisbury, England. Yeah. But, no, it was named after doctor Jade Salisbury who was a New York doctor in the eighteen hundreds. He did a thirty year research project into the optimal diet for humans.

And he wrote a book called, you know, the relation between alienation and disease, basically. The relationship between what we eat and the diseases we get. And he argued exactly what I'm arguing now, that these diseases are not diseases, that this comes from the food that we eat. And so he found that he could cure people by putting them on a pure red meat and water diet that people and this is long before sugar, you know, was was was even on the radar, you know, had no refined sugar at the time. You know, fruit was seasonal at best, and people were already, you know, well aware that meat was was very important, but we had other things as well.

And it was the the just these normal vegetables and grains that were causing these problems without sugar in in the mix. So, you know, he found that people that were eating, you know, plants, including, as well as meat, that they were getting diseases that other people simply weren't. They were they were more they were their immune system was crap. They were more susceptible to tuberculosis, which was a major killer at the time in America. They're in Crohn's, ulcerative colitis, rheumatoid arthritis, gout, all these things.

You know, chronic Lyme disease, chronic fatigue syndrome, all the all these various problems. And he found that he could cure them by putting them on a pure red meat and water diet, and that's where the Salisbury steak was. The Salisbury steak was a was a special way of grinding, you know, beef so that it got it sort of filtered out the, connective tissue, like the the hard sort of gristle. And he found that that people with, like, Crohn's and ulcerative colitis, had a had a much better time with this because, you know, they was completely untreated. I mean, this is a hundred years before any any real treatment for Crohn's Crohn's or UC.

And so these people were just in desperate, desperate straits. And if you know, and they they really didn't want to have anything going through. So if you if you just, you know, filter out the the, gristle, you'll absorb 100% of of the meat that you eat. You know, the muscle meat and the fat will just absorb. You will absorb all of that as you'll have literally no waste.

You'll have very little waste. Otherwise, you'll still absorb, like, 98% of the meat you're eating. You know, so only a little bit will go out. But, you know, these people that are in horrible, horrible pain, you know, they really need just nothing coming through there. And so that's why he had the the Salisbury steak.

And, yeah, he found that to be the case. This was actually very popular. You know, people call it, like, the first fad diet. You know, I don't I don't know if you can call something a fad if it's if it's actually biologically appropriate. You know?

You know, I guess that just has to do with with popularity and and the transient nature of of that. But, it is our our biologically appropriate diet. And many people took up his, mantle after that and and wrote books and papers. You know, there's Stefansson from Harvard. He was a professor of ethnology there in Polar Explorer.

He lived with the, you know, the Eskimos Inuit. And and he showed that, like, this is how they eat. They just eat meat, and they're and I and I've I've eaten been eating with them, and I've never felt better in my entire life. And, know, they ran experiments where they only eat meat for an entire year under supervised care at Bellevue Hospital in in New York. And, I found like, wow.

Yeah. No. These guys are are super healthy, and they aren't lying. They are only eating meat. So and there's just so many more.

I mean, so many books, so many papers. You know, I was looking at the Journal of American Medical Association even back in the fifties, and there's so many papers being published just arguing that, you know, the that the the push to say that cholesterol cause heart disease was nonsense. You know? They said, like, you know, people are pretty much accepting that cholesterol, you know, causes heart disease, but this is based on really bad evidence. There's really bad science.

They just went through excoriating all the different papers that tried to suggest this. So this was a heated battle, and there was a lot going on. And, like, even even as as recently as 1975, there was a a book. I forgot the guy's name, but he was a he was a doctor's gastroenterologist, and he wrote a book called the stone age. Oh, sorry.

The stone age diet. And, you know, he argued again that humans are carnivores. That's just what we are. He's like, here's the evidence of that. And, you know, medically, he said, like, oh, this is this is how we should be eating.

You know? And that, you know, me as a gastroenterologist, basically, I don't need to exist as a profession if you don't eat plants. Wow. You know? And then in 1977, you know, cholesterol became became evil.

Everything just got shoved out the door. Because teachers said so, that was it. Discussion over. And it just it just, you know, ruined and discredited all the people, all the doctors and researchers who, you know, were thrashing these these paid shills from Harvard, in debate in open live debate, and it's just absolutely destroying them. But because teachers said so, because the USDA said so officially, well, that's it.

No. Decision's down. That's what it is. Can't be anything different. You know?

And that and that absolutely just just destroyed the health of humanity. I'm not I'm not saying that lightly. You know? The obesity rate tripled. Heart disease tripled.

Stroke rate tripled. Cancer rates tripled. Type two diabetes increased by a factor of six. Autoimmune diseases, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and even neurodevelopmental delays such as autism all increased exponentially. They almost didn't exist before then.

Now they're the only things we treat, and they all increase at the exact same time. You know? So explain that one. You know? Like, something happened.

You know? Our genetics didn't happen. Anyone who studies population genetics know that can't happen in that short of a time. And so something happened in our environment. You know?

And that was a major, major change at that time, and, you know, it seems to coincide with this major uptake in disease. And funny enough, when you reverse those, dietary recommendations, those diseases also reverse as well.

Looking at this from your standpoint, how do we actually approach this problem? You know, there's a tsunami of chronic diseases, and only a small silver of people are actually seeing it and acting upon the information that is is actually still to this day, like, getting discredited in a lot of ways by these big institutions. So, like

Yeah. You

know, you, yourself, a a small handful of other MDs are really fighting the good fight, but, like, what else what else can we do out there to to make this message a little bit louder and a little bit, more well received? Because there's a lot of unhealthy people who are hearing it and just not doing anything about it.

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's just really important to get to get, you know, the message out there. And, you know, I mean, it's it's it's difficult when it's not mainstream, and you can't make those arguments in in mainstream channels. But it it's getting there. It's starting to make more moves and, you know, you just like, you know, we we met and spoke at, at the KetoCon, convention.

You know, and Keto's been around for a while, and people have had a lot of very good results with that. Well, now they're incorporating, you know, carnivore people like myself and Sean Baker and, you know, Judy Cho and many, many others, who who are advocating a carnivore diet. And and they're you know, we had a carnivore panel where, you know, you know, several of us, went up there. You know, doctor Kevin Stock, you know, eight a Fox, and, you know, Lauren Espath, like, you know, as long as well as, Baker and and Judy. You know?

And and, you know, a lot of people came to that and were asking questions and getting more curious about it. And, you know, that I think is is very important, in podcasts like this, getting the message out, but also just people, word-of-mouth talking to their friends and their family and saying, hey. You know, mom, you've been struggle struggling with rheumatoid arthritis your whole life. Hey. I came across this.

This is really interesting. These guys are saying that people have been, you know, curing and treating rheumatoid arthritis since eighteen hundreds by putting people on a carnivore diet. And, oh, look. You know, Mikaela Peterson, she completely reversed her rheumatoid arthritis after having two major joint replacements at the age of 16. Now she has no issues.

She has no flare ups. You know? She's not on medication. She's having kids. You know?

So those are very powerful messages and just, you know, getting the word-of-mouth out there and and, you know, you know, not, you know, being like a nosy neighbor and, like, getting in other people's business, but, you know, at least opening that door to that and just at least tell them, hey. Did you know? You know? This this can really help you. Look at this.

You know? Check this out. Look at this dude's video. Look at this, you know, podcast or something like that. That's how it's gonna have to be.

It's, until we get enough traction to then, you know, get people like myself and doctor Baker, you know, on on live debates on television and, you know, where we get, like, you know, you know, audience of of millions out there, and we can just, you know, go after these guys and go after these points. We've already started doing that. You know, I was involved in a carnivore versus vegan debate with, you know, there were six doctors, you know, three on each team. You know, we just we just made our case, and that was for, you know, an Australian, nutritional, you know, Australian College of Nutritional Environmental Medicine. And, you know, and they're doing a lot of work in that space, and there are other organizations that are that are moving that mark as well.

So, at this point, the best thing that people can do is keep doing podcasts like this, keep doing interviews like this, and and keep talking to people and individually. I I've spoken to literally thousands and thousands of people one on one over the over the last, you know, sort of five years. And I try to give them resources. I have, you know, I have a ton of studies and, resources on my phone. And I talk to people about it, and I'll just send it to them right there.

And so I hey. Look it up. Take a look at yourself. You know? See what you think.

And, you know, patients and and just friends and just people. Like and I, you know, have a lot of time for these sorts of conversations with people because I think it's really, really important. And, you know, and so that's what everyone should be doing. If everyone starts doing this and they really, really get a handle on the information, they really get a handle on the arguments and the data, and then they go out and have these conversations with people, that will grow. You know, Perth, Australia was like a vegan nightmare when I got there.

And now I I'm there are a lot of people that already know about the carnivore diet and and know someone who's doing it. No one knew about this before I got there. And I'm not saying I'm the only one who influenced that, but I was talking to, like, three people a day about it for three years. Mhmm. You know?

And so, like, minimum. And so and then those people talk to people, and they're having amazing results, and they talk to more people. And so the best thing we can do now is just really pushing this by word-of-mouth and and directed. Like, if you see a video you like and you're like, oh, actually, I have a cousin or I have a friend who, you know, this would actually apply to. Send them that.

You know? You know? It it's helpful to the people putting out the videos because they get more traction, and and that can help their viewership, and and it will just be suggested to more people, which can also help. But it's really helpful to those people. And just, like, making sure that they get that information is, I think, the best thing we can do at the moment.

Yeah. That's why we feel like documentaries are such a great tool to get the word out there to our video clips. Like, it's very tough to probably get someone that's not super into nutrition to read the big fat surprise, which is like a 500 page book, so much good info. But it's like I can probably get someone to watch Sacred Cow, which is like an hour and, you know, that's the right nutrition on meat consumption. Such such a good documentary.

Yeah. Definitely feel you on that point. Are there any are there any documentaries or books that you just recommend for people that wanna dig into this a little bit more that are just, like, very digestible and get right to the point?

Yeah. No. That that's a very good point. I think I think we start like, documentaries gets carried a huge amount of weight. Like, maybe people really pay attention to those things.

And, unfortunately, you know, they the things like, you know, What the Health, which is just the worst thing ever made, and, and, you know, game changers. I mean, these things have done a lot of harm. And, you know, so we need to get those on our side as well, a %. And I think that's a very good point is, like, getting out into the media. Like, you know, people can people can affect this in their own world by just talking to people.

But, yeah, right at a certain point, we really need to make this go mainstream. We need to get documentaries. We need to get television shows. We need we need to get this as a major part of the conversation, and people can see this is changing lives. Ones I really like would be, like Vinnie, Tortoric's Fat, a documentary.

He did two of those. There's Fat, a documentary one, and then there's the second one, Fat, a documentary two. And then he just came out with Beyond Impossible going into the whole, you know, industry side of things, with with Beyond Meat and, and then just showing, you know, just just what a farce this is. And he has a lot of very good people like Nina Ty Schultz and, Gary Taubes Mhmm. Who've been fighting this fight for decades now.

And they're so knowledgeable, and they're so well read. And they've, you know, written books of their own that are that are, you know, you know, cardinal, literature in this in this topic. But they're very like like you say, very digestible, very easy to watch. And it's just like just you see this one. Jesus.

Okay. That's nuts. And it's like but this is hard facts in history. You know? And, so I think those are those are, his, documentaries are excellent.

And, you know, but there there are others. I haven't seen Magic Pill, but I've heard good things about it. I don't know if you guys have seen that one as well. That's

it's awesome. It's free on YouTube too, which is great.

Okay. Yeah. And so, you know, yeah, these sorts of things. And, there's a new TV show called Reversed, that, you know, I've just put up on my on my, Instagram, you know, stores and things like that. They have, like, the Bloom Network, and they're, posting this thing called Reversed.

It's like, you know, Bob Marley's nephew has has produced this, and his mom's having a lot of health issues. And he was, like, looking around and see things that could help. And he you know, in his sort of interest in in health and nutrition, he came across keto and how this was helping, and he did a an episode or sorry, a season where he took a, you know, bunch of people like, you know, doctor, Ken Berry, you know, took them down with a lot of people who are very, very sick, had diabetes, and very poorly controlled diabetes and got them on, like, a ketogenic diet, high fat meat based diet in ketosis. And these people were just reversing these diseases, reversing their diabetes. One lady came on who was on an insulin pump for, like, eleven or twelve years is now off.

You know, does not need insulin anymore. That's unheard of. You know, that that that here to four had just doesn't happen. You know? Now it's happening every time someone goes on to a carnivore diet or even a ketogenic diet.

You know? We we have studies looking at this too. They're looking at fasting. They say in animal models, if you fast for a minimum of four days a month, you know, you'll reverse not only type two diabetes, but type one diabetes. They started they showed that they could regrow their beta islet cells and start making insulin again.

Wow. Okay? And so they said, well, you know, fasting is really hard for people, so that's not really fun. So what about a fasting mimicking diet? This mimics fasting.

Well, that's a ketogenic diet. Right? Yeah. That gets you into that metabolism, which is not a fasting metabolism, by the That's our primary metabolic state. That's why we get so much benefit from fasting and being in ketosis is because we're supposed to be in this metabolic state anyway.

And when you get out of that metabolic state, things go to hell. And so that's part of the disease process. That's part of the poisoning is by screwing with your metabolism, and and it it goes down to your cellular metabolism too. It screws with your mitochondria that can't, you know, process and make energy as well. It it precipitates cancer.

It feeds cancer. Cancers get feed on 400 times the amount of glucose that that normal cells do, but they can't feed on ketones. So you go into ketosis, all of a sudden your cancer cells are getting starved out, and you can actually, you know, have a have a hack at it. So they did a show called reverse, and they had these amazing, amazing results. Well, they're now doing a season two, in Costa Rica where they're actually going for a carnivore diet.

And, you know, myself and, you know, doctor Barry and, you know, Bella Steak and Butter Gal and others are gonna be on that as well. You know, a lot of carnivore, proponents. And and just really go for the gold. This guy, okay. You know, let's really try to hit some some some big problems here with, you know, what what is what we argue is the best modality from a diet point of view in any case.

So it's great that these things are starting to get traction. It's great these things are people are actually gonna are starting to put money in and say, hey. You know? Let let's let's put a production up here. So, I'm really excited for that, and I'm really excited for, you know, more and more documentaries to come out as well.

Where where does your mind go when you see some of these documentaries come out like game changers and kind of the other side of the aisle where they're pushing this this vegan movement, and maybe even an extension of that, like, when you hear, like, vegan Fridays and things like that or meatless moneys. Like, those types of things just run directly in line with what you're talking about. So I imagine you Yeah. Probably take a pretty strong stance against those.

Yeah. Well, you know, the thing is is that, you know, I've I've always been of the of the opinion that you you should always look at at the other argument because, you know, hey. Maybe I'm missing something. You know? And if these guys have a good argument, then I, you know, I wanna hear it.

But they don't. And, again, unfortunately, like, you know, for me, I have to I have to keep watching these things because it's like, okay. You know, is there anything new here? No. There's nothing new.

It's all garbage. And, What the Health was was one of those, and it it just pissed me off to watch this thing. I had a friend of mine who makes documentaries and is a really great person and and, you know, someone I I really respect. When I was coming out, you know, doing my research saying, hey. Look.

This this is make this is a huge difference and and, this is really interesting. You know, she was saying like, oh, you know, this game share the well, not game changers, but, this is what the health document just came out. Oh, it'll really change your mind. It it has all this stuff. Like, you know, you should be watch this.

This is really making waves. And she was saying this from a documentarian point of view because it was it was very, very popular and successful. But from, you know, scientific point of view and medical point of view, it was complete and utter garbage. And I remember watching this. I got I got, I think, like, a minute and a half into this, and I was just already screaming at the television.

You know? And, like and, and so I started I take I started taking notes in my phone, like, voice to text, and I I stopped the the video to watch, you know, that I was watching. And I would just, like, basically scream in my phone, like, all the things I had wrong with this. I'm like, well, this bullshit, and here's why, and here's a link. And, like, I would actually have, like, links to, like, showing that this was garbage.

It took me four hours to watch the first hour of that horrible documentary because I kept stopping it and kept, you know, making notes. I I I got, like, an hour into it, and they started going to, you know, how, you know, just just cows are evil and destroy everything. And I was just like, okay. I'm I'm done with this nonsense. Like, I've I've, you know, I've watched enough of this to know that it's garbage.

Like, the rest of it's gonna be garbage too. I don't need to waste my time. And I sent this whole thing. It was it was so many pages. I sent this to to her.

I mean, like, you made me watch that horrible documentary. Like, now you have to read my responses to it. And, but yeah. No. It's it's, it's propaganda.

You know? It's it's plain and simple propaganda, and, you know, they know that it is. You know? They they they purposely and intentionally, you know, try to mislead people. A good example of that in what the health was when they had, you know, this this very, you know, graphic scene of, like, your mother with, like, a, you know, a tray of, like, dirty old cigarette butts and just, like, scooping them in and pouring them onto a child's, plate and saying that feeding your kid processed meat was the same as feeding your kid cigarettes.

And the justification for that, that that completely abhorrent comment was, you know, the fact that that they showed this this picture of of, you know, processed meat and cigarettes and plutonium, they were all class one carcinogens, right, or class a carcinogens, whatever. And they had a little number next to it that they put up there so they could say, oh, well, we put the number there. You know, we weren't trying to mislead you. But they don't tell you what that number is. That number was your basically, your relative risk of developing cancer with exposure and, like, how how carcinogenic is this.

So next to the processed meat was the number six, and next to the, cigarettes was three hundred and eighteen thousand.

Wow.

Okay? Not the same. Yeah. You know? And next to the plutonium was 8,600,000.

Right? So this is stupid. You know? And they and they know damn well that it's stupid, but they're trying to say, oh, this is like feeding your kids cigarettes. Like, well, no.

Yeah. Feeding your kid 30,000 servings of of, processed meat may be equivalent to one cigarette, not the same damn thing as pouring a bunch of cigarette butts on your kid's plate. And so this is this is bullshit. And, game changers was no different. That was just nonsense.

You know, they, you know, you you eat something, eat a vegan burrito, and you eat a, you know, a a whatever meat burrito, and they take your blood and spin it. And they're like, ugh. This one's so gross. Like, based on what? What objective measure is that?

It looks less pleasing to you because you said so. What the hell does that mean? Yeah. You're like, oh my god. Did you see it?

The blood. Oh. Yeah. What? That's not a thing.

You know? We don't we don't spin people's bloods and look at it and go, oh god. This this looks different. Like, that's just retarded. Yeah.

You know, when you eat fat, your body's going to absorb that in the form of chylomicrons, and that will have a fat layer, funny enough, because your body is mobilizing fat. And so who told you that that wouldn't happen? Who thought that that was a bad thing? I mean, this is this is stupid. And and there's so many other other problems as well.

You know, like the guy, the world's strongest man or something like that. You know, it was his Yeah. Weightlifter guy. The only competitions he'd ever won were vegan power lifting competitions. Yeah.

That wasn't even on the radar for, like, world's strongest man sort of stuff. I mean, like, no one even knew who the hell he was. You know? So, you know, it's just it's just, you know, lies and nonsense. And a lot of there were actually a number of athletes that they asked to get on the Game Changers documentary, originally as well.

So they're, oh, okay. Yeah. We'll go Game Changer. And they started going vegan, and their performances dropped, and their and they were getting injuries. And they're like, screw this.

You know? So they they dropped out of the of the project because it sucks. You know? Yeah. And so you know?

And and they don't tell you this either. They're you know, when when you're they they presented this as if it was it was a scientific, you know, study and and discussion of of scientific data and literature. Whenever you're presenting your own research or you're doing a presentation, you have to, you know, disclose your, your your your influences and, and and any sort of, you know, bias that you may have. Right? And so if you have a financial interest in something, like, you have to say that.

You know, if I work for if I work for, you know, the beef industry and I'm getting paid, you know, by, you know, some sort of industry in them, I need to say that. Like, hey. I I work for these guys just so you know. But the reason I work for these guys is because I, you know, I believe it. Right.

And here's the evidence. You can say that, and that's fine. They didn't say any of that. And, you know, James Cameron, who is, like, you know, the executive producer of this thing, you know, what they don't tell you is that he actually owns, like, something like a hundred and $40,000,000 worth of a pea protein company.

Yes.

You know? So this is just one giant commercial and propaganda piece to get people to start buying his product. You know? Like, woah. You can't eat meat.

Oh, meat's so bad, but you sure need protein. So, conveniently, I got some right here, you know, with a 10% discount code. Game changer.

I think it's the country's largest pea protein company too. I think it's a massive operation.

Is that yeah. I mean, it makes sense. I mean, like, hundred and $40,000,000, I mean, that's gonna be a big, you know, big, big organization. That and that's just his stake. You know?

So, yeah, this is this is just nonsense. And it was unfortunate that, you know, people like Arnold Schwarzenegger, you know I mean I mean, they're all buddies. I mean, he's he's known James Cameron since the seventies, man. I mean, he, you know, he did Terminator with the guy. But, you know, it's it's pretty sad that he would he would do that to people because, I mean, this harms people.

You're not just selling a product. This isn't just like glitz and glamour of Hollywood. You just say whatever you want. It doesn't matter. It does matter.

I mean, this is people's health, you know, and people believe, you know, the these people. Arnold Schwarzenegger was nearly carnivore when he was doing mister Olympia. His body idol was Serge Nubray, who would eat six pounds of horse meat a day. Although all the old school bodybuilders were on a steak and eggs diet.

Yes.

Maybe some of them, like, Yuranda would have Is it him? Anyway, would have, like, a one sheet day a week where they load up on carbs, and that's it. You know? The rest of the week, it was just steak and eggs, steak and eggs, steak and eggs. And Newberry was certainly of that mind and so was Arnold because he he looked at these guys.

How do I these guys are the top. How do I get to the top? And so that was the model that he picked. And now he's now he's saying that, oh, if only I was vegan, it would have been even better. Like, get out.

You know? Yeah. And, you know, he he's a classic one for for bullshitting anyway. You know, he even said in, like, his, you know, pumping iron that, like, when he when people are upcoming, like, you know, hey. Can I get some tips?

Can I get some advice? Like, he would sabotage them on purpose. He would tell them the wrong things in order to make them fail so that he had less competition, which is, like, I've never I've never been in the opinion that, you know, if you can only win by cheating, then, like, you haven't really won. You know? If you if you can't beat someone man on man, then you really ain't shit.

And, like, that's sort of how I feel about him at this point. And, you know, and so, you know, he's saying that, you know, you have to you know, it was like some people saying that, like, oh, yeah. When you're when you're doing the different different, flexes, you have to, like, make a different sound and a different grunt with each one. Like, you know, you're like different, like, crazy noises. And, like so then this guy would go in with a conversation.

You do that, and they actually disqualify me. Like, get out of here. You know, like, you're just embarrassing yourself. You know? So he he's he's known for doing that.

You know? And so I don't think this is anything else. I don't think this is something that he legitimately believes in. I don't think for a second that he actually, you know, is buying what he's he's selling here.

Yeah. Yeah. I know that, there's a really good snippet where Dorian Yates gets interviewed on his opinion of Schwarzenegger, and I think he just, like, kind of, like, quibbly responds. He's like, well, he's boys with the Rothschilds and the elites like that, and it's pretty much all I'm gonna say about that. I think that pretty much tells you everything you need to know.

But to your point, it's like, you look up the diets of these golden era bodybuilders that have the best physiques of all time, Steaks, cottage cheese, eggs. Like you mentioned, I think Geronda was eating, like, 30 eggs a day or something. I think it's like raw dairy. I think Tom Platts was like I think Tom Platts would have a bunch of desiccated liver capsules. So they're basically all animal based to your point.

Yeah. So

now tell people that they shouldn't be eating these things and they can still get big and strong. It's just complete bullshit.

Yeah. Absolutely. You know? And, you know, like, all all the studies show that as well. You know?

I mean, like, you know, you you need a certain amount of protein, but you need bioavailable protein. You actually need fat and cholesterol as well. There's there's this good study that came out recently that showed that without dietary intake of cholesterol, it it really curtails your your, muscle generation and muscle, yeah, muscle generation and building. And, you know, people with, like, MS as well. Like, if you're not taking in exogenous, cholesterol, you're not gonna be remyelinating your your, cells.

Right? You need that cholesterol. And then for, you know you know, plant proteins and things like that, these are not bioavailable. You know? Bioavailability, obviously, you know, is very important because, you know, if you have, you know, if you have a a box that says, you know, 30 grams per scoop of, you know, protein per, you know, scoop of of pee extract Yeah.

You know, how much of that are you actually absorbing? Like, we assume 30 is gonna be in my body and making muscles. That's wrong. That's dead wrong. You know?

Most of these things are are not bioavailable. They are not, in a form that our body can break down properly because we aren't supposed to break these things down. You know? So we have some enzymes that that that that sort of work and can kinda break these things down and then pop off some amino acids, but we're not breaking these things down fully. And we have plenty of studies showing that that, you know, in the feces and even the, you know, the the material that comes out of, people's, like, stoma bags.

You know, when you eat pea protein, almost all of it's coming out. Mhmm. When you eat animal based protein, almost none of it comes out. Right? Unless you're eating fiber, fiber will, again, you know, slow that.

But if you're not eating fiber, like, almost none of this none none of this will come out, if any will come out. So and and there's other things too, you know, and, you know, plants have defense chemicals that do a lot of different things. One of those things block the the absorption fiber or block, the or inhibit the enzymes that break down proteins and fat. So there's there's, like, protease inhibitors in soy and wheat, are two good examples, and these will stop your pancreas' enzymes from being able to break down, fat and protein. So even if you're eating animal based protein, but you're eating that in a sandwich form and you're getting some wheat in there, that's gonna block the protease, and that's not gonna be able to break down even your animal based protein.

You're not gonna be able to absorb as much of that. And so this screws with your body. And, you know, so, you know, there there's a lot that goes into this and, you know, all of this bad. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. Doctor Shafi, one of the things you mentioned, we talk we touched on some of the documentaries that are basically propaganda, and then we touched on some of the documentaries that do a really good job. We mentioned sacred cow. One of the things that we loved about sacred cow is how Rob Wolf and Diana Rogers, they kinda go out on a limb and say, look. We wish we could say that grass fed grass fed, grass finished meat is nutritionally better for you than grain fed meat, but that our new our data just shows that that's not the case.

Mhmm.

Based on some of the research that you've done, do you find that to be similar or just, like, curious how you think about those things?

Yeah. I mean, I I think I think that that, you know, that the data certainly doesn't doesn't really show a big difference in in grain, finished versus, like, grass fed. I mean, you look at you look at just the the simple relationship of the of the different macros and micros that are in there. They are different. You know?

And so, you know, if you have, if you've been grain feeding a cow for over three months, studies show that they basically have no omega three fatty acids left. It's they're all omega sixes. I mean, so that's the difference. Right? And now does that make an objective difference to such a degree that you can this can be demonstrably and objectively measured?

You know? So far, no. You know? But, you know, it probably is. You know?

It's like it's, you know, if the animal is as healthy as it can be, if it's eating what it's supposed to eat, you know, it's just gonna have a slightly better complement of of nutrients and nutrition. It's gonna be healthier. It's gonna be healthier for you to eat. But, you know, it's it's at least small enough of a difference as to really be a material. Like, I I almost exclusively eat grain finished beef.

You know? I I do feel better on on grass finished grass fed and finished. But that, you know, that's a bit of a difficulty too because a lot of things are said that they're % grass fed, and and they're really not. And, you know, a good way of looking at that is, like, what color is the fat? If the fat's not yellow, well, it didn't end its life eating grass.

Mhmm. You know? It was it was put on something else that that sort of sapped those nutrients. You know? That that yellowness comes from beta carotene.

And, you know, if that's not in there, well, then, you know, you're you're missing out on at least that nutrient. It's, you know, the way I sort of think about it is, you know, like, grass fed beef is like gold medal at the Olympics, and grain grain finished is, like, second place. You know, grain finished still means that 80% of its life was was eating grass. You know? Since the last couple months, they were they were eating grains.

So still mostly fine. You know? Silver lost to gold. Right? But silver still beat everyone else on earth.

Yeah. So, you know, whether or not you're, you know, you're worried about things, the difference between grain fed and grass fed, you know, you still shouldn't eat anything else. You know? Like, there's still gonna be nothing else that's better than that. And I'm sure there are differences.

I I just I really don't doubt that, but I don't think that those differences are significant in the sense of of tracking from your health to a degree of causing disease or really impacting your life.

Doctor Chiquiu, what would be your most actionable advice for people who are going from a standard American diet interested in carnivore, but maybe just, like, haven't they don't have that, like, on off switch like the three of us have where we can just, like, you know, put it into hyperdrive. What would what sort of things would you tell them to start making that bridge over to a a more animal based carnivore lifestyle?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I I do like the sort of the the cold turkey approach. And if you if you make that decision, you just be hard. Like, right now, this stops.

You just you literally just throw all the crap out of your out of your house. You just throw it out, and you just go to meet because, you know, it's out of sight, out of mind. You know, if it's there, it's gonna be a, you know, a, you know, a bit of a distraction. It's gonna be a temptation. You know?

I mean, I don't I don't think anyone is is is advising people to buy a carton of cigarettes and then try and quit smoking with that cigarette pack you know, carton of cigarettes on their shelf, like, throw them away. You know, get them out of the house. But if that's, you know, not something that that people can do, I always recommend, you know, having a plan, you know, just sort of trying to get a timeline. Because if you're just, oh, I'm quitting smoking, and people can quit smoking for twenty years and be smoking more cigarettes at the end of that than at the beginning, you need a clear timeline. You know?

Say, okay. So this week, I'm eating this. Next week, I'm eating less of that. Next week, I'm not eating it at all, and and you go on from there. Eating more meat, eating fatty meat, you know, that should just be the basis of your meal, any meal.

And, that if you're eating more meat, that's going to displace the other things anyway. Then it's a matter of just eliminating thing these things out. I would % start, you know, on a keto diet. Right? A whole foods keto diet.

Get rid of sugar, get rid of carbohydrates and alcohol, and you just get rid of it. I would start there. That's the that's the first and foremost thing that I'll get out of out of their diet. After that would be things like nightshades, potatoes, tomatoes, eggplants, peppers, you know, all capsicums, all, you know, bell peppers and and and everything like that. Those those are worse than other vegetables.

You know? And, and they just sort of taper it down from there. You know, at that point, you're mostly eating fatty meat and salads. You know? And then you can just sort of, you know, taper it down from there.

I mean, I've never really enjoyed a salad anyway. I don't know if I I've never really eaten a salad. I didn't feel compelled to eat. And, you know, and just and just see how you go, but have a timeline. Just be like, okay.

Dropping carbs day one and eating a lot more meat. Great. Doing that for, like, a couple weeks, then I'm, you know, I'm gonna drop, you know, nightshades. I'm gonna drop this, and then I'm gonna drop that or or maybe just wean it down less and less if they want to. You know?

If you really wanna go on a carnivore diet, I think it's it's good to just go and go for it and just see how great you feel because you will feel absolutely amazing. And after about two weeks, all the crap will get out of your system if you're just eating meat and water, and you will literally feel like a different breed of human. And, like, I don't know anyone who's sort of experienced that and and not wanted to continue that. Now there are people that really miss the variety of food and for whatever reasons, and I think you have to sort of, you know, come at this, individually and think about, well, what are your motivations? Why do you wanna do this for me?

I just don't wanna eat poison. And I know plants are poisonous, so I'm just not I'm not touching that crap. Yeah. Other people, maybe they wanna build muscle. Maybe they wanna be a better athlete.

Maybe they, you know, wanna lose weight. But, you know, you have to keep your your eye on the prize. You know, whatever reason you wanna do, carnivore for, you know, be mindful of that. And, I just couldn't have pizza and all. I don't have this variety.

Who gives a shit? Like, you are getting all these amazing benefits, you know, by doing this. Like, that so far overshadows the, the the, you know, not having being able to have, you know, pizza and ice cream sundae. Like, I mean, who cares? Like, I I like pizza.

I like ice cream. I like feeling like a superhero way more. Way more. Yeah.

Yeah. It's honestly a really good mental model of just drawing a line in the sand because it's like you're going to the inner eye of the grocery store. You're like, oh, this stuff tastes really good. What we were saying is, like, dude, that's literally a product that's not real food. So it's like, even though it tastes good, it's literally gonna detract from your health.

It's effectively gonna poison you. So what you can't you're saying, hey. These foods, maybe it's red meat, eggs, water, bone broth, whatever. Those are the foods that you're sticking to that are gonna make you feel the best that you've ever felt in your life.

Yeah. Exactly. And and and and that's the thing. You know, for for me, you know, food is nutrition. Food is is supposed to, you know, help my body stay healthy and work properly so that I can go out and do cool things.

You know, a lot of people, you know, use food as as entertainment, just similar as what we would use drugs and alcohol and cigarettes. I mean, like, I enjoy doing this, and so I wanna do this even though it may hurt me. And we we've we've had that model for a long time. Oh, I'm gonna have some ice cream. Oh, I know it shouldn't, but, oh, you know, whatever.

This is, this is the same relationship that we we have with drugs, you know, or alcohol. Like, yeah, drinking is bad for me, you know, but, you know, it's Friday night. Whatever. Fine. You know?

Enjoy your life if that's what you wanna do, but, you know, don't kid yourself. You know? I mean, the this stuff this stuff harms you. And so for me, I just really like feeling my best, and I I want I want to put fuel on my body so I can go out and do cool things. Like, I don't I don't need to eat food as entertainment.

You know? I'm I've never been that interested. You know? It's not like, you know, I I just need to entertain myself that way. But there are a lot of people who go to breakfast, go to lunch, go to dinner, go to brunch, go to coffee, go to drinks, do all these things.

Their entire social life is surrounded, you know, surrounds food. And, you know, I'm just so glad I'm out that, outside of that. I'm I'm just on I'm on the outside looking in going like, yeah. You know, good luck with that. I go out and do things.

I eat once a day. I feel amazing. I'm not hungry for another twenty four hours, and I go out and and do things. You know? And I go out and I go on hiking.

I go work out. I, you know, I work, you know, hundred and twenty hours a week. You know? I'm I do my podcast. I do I see friends.

I see family. And I just have tons of energy and tons of life, and I can actually go out and do things with people. And I enjoy that so much better than than just sitting around and just eating random crap. You know? And I remember, like, you know, talking to people, you know, especially, like, in in the dating scene before I was I was, seeing my girlfriend.

You know, you talk to people like, oh, you know, what are you into? What do you like to do? And, like, I can't even tell you how many girls would be like, oh, I like going to, you know, new restaurants and, like, trying things. I'm like, that's a hobby. You know?

Like, that's like that's like your pastime is just going to restaurants. I'm like, Jesus Christ. You know? Like, your life sucks. But, like, you know, but but that's the thing.

We're we're all stuck in that. I was stuck in that. Yeah. Yeah. And and we don't realize it.

Now I can be on the outside, look at that going like, ugh. But at the time, it was just like, oh, this is cool. Let's try this. You you don't see it when you're inside of it. Yeah.

You know?

But, you know,

now that I'm out of it, I'm just I'm so happy.

Yeah. And speaking of vices, I'm gonna be honest. I grabbed you a keto kind. I said, doctor Chaffee, give me your thoughts on coffee. It's my last vice that I haven't picked yet.

And you this story that convinced me that I need to get off of it, I think you had this awesome story about, like, this some workout and hike that you did, non coffee versus when you incorporated coffee. Can you tell that story really quickly? Because after that, I was like, alright. Fuck it. I'm done.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, when when I was just getting back into carnivore so I, you know, started carnivore, you know, twenty three years ago, you know, just inadvertently. Just wasn't eating plants. Was on that for, like, five years. And then after that, it was mostly meat based, but, you know, sort of slipped some things back in.

Then about five years ago, after I got back from doing humanitarian work in in Bangladesh and refugee camps there, I had rediscovered this and we're like, Jesus. Like, I knew it. I knew plants were trying to kill me. Like, screw these things. And I just got rid of them.

And, and so I've been carnivore again for about two weeks. I was feeling amazing. Maybe maybe two, three weeks. Just absolutely felt outstanding. And I was, I was working out.

I had sort of like a home gym set up, but I was just, you know, just lifting heavy, you know, every day. I lost, like, 25 pounds. I'm sorry. 23 pounds in two weeks. And then, like, my my weight remained stable, and I just my then my body was just transforming after that, but I stayed the same weight.

And I noticed that I wasn't really getting sore after working out. I thought that was really strange. And I and I did, like, a, like, a heavy leg circuit, where I did, like, 12 heavy sets of legs and, you know, like, one legged weighted, you know, box steps and all all these sorts of things that, like, normally would kick my ass. And I did, like, 12 sets of these things to failure. I always go to failure.

Like, every every every set, like, I I doing reps until, like, I physically can't do them anymore. And that's just how that's how you get results. And, and so I was doing that, and, like, you know, I wasn't sore. The next day, I'm like, oh, that's weird. Because normally, I judge, like, how hard I'm working and how good my workouts are by how sore I am the next few days.

And, like, my whole life, I'm having different body groups sore on alternate days. I kinda like that. I'm like, yeah. This is great. I'm I'm really, you know, working hard here.

Also, I have none of that. And I remember thinking, like, you know, I was like, alright. You know, I I wasn't, you know, like, jello legged and, like, just, like, wobbling out of there at the end of this. You know? So maybe I just, you know, I'm not working out as harder or, you know, like, what's going on?

So I decided that my next leg day, a few days later, I would just really go after it. So I do this I did the same, you know, heavy, you know, 12 sets, and then I just decided to do, squats after that. And I just decided to do as many sets of squats, as necessary to wear out my legs. And I was just I just did set after set after set after set after set after set. And I was listening to, you know, my favorite, author, Thomas Sowell.

And so I was just listening to his book on tape, and I was just listening to his stuff and, like, you know, just enjoying that and just doing all these sets. And I was giving myself a proper break. I, you know, I give myself a full recovery, you know, like like, you know, even, like, four minutes. And and when I was ready to go, I go. And as long as I gave myself, you know, a proper rest, I could just keep going.

And I just did so many sets, and I eventually, like, looked at it, and and I did another 20 sets of of squats. Right? So I did 32 sweats sets of of heavy legs. And, like, I just I just sort of dawned on me. Like, I can keep doing this the rest of the night.

Like, I I just this is nothing. You know? As long as I'm giving myself a rest. I am not I'm not saying I've been doing some some things now where I basically don't give myself any rest. Like, you know, thirty seconds rest for upper body, sixty seconds rest for lower body, and then I can burn myself out.

And that's what Newbury did, and that's what Taranda did as well. And they do, like, 12 sets of 12 or eight sets of eight, respectively. And, so as long as I gave myself enough rest, I could not wear out my legs. And, you know, then I was there, and I was just like, you know so so for instance, the first set of the 20, I did 15 squats to failure. My last set was 13.

You know? That's insane. So at the same at the same weight. And so I was just like, alright. Well, I could literally keep doing this the whole night, but, like, I've been here for four hours, and I've got shit to do.

So I'm just gonna cut this now. And, and I had a a friend of mine, like, message me. You know, because I was actually pretty worried because, like, you know, I'd done, like, that that 12, set leg thing. Like, I'd done that leg circuit with, like, alignment from, like, the UW football team, back in the day, and that was how how where I learned that leg leg workout. And that was, like, at the end of the season, of the rugby season where I, like, my legs were beast at the time, like, you know, because I was so much sprinting, so much running.

Like, my my legs are just tree trunks. And I did this sort of big circuit with them, and, like, I literally couldn't walk for two damn weeks. I was in I was just in agony for two solid weeks. And so I was looking at this, and I'm like, Jesus. Okay.

I really don't wanna do that. I never wanna experience that again. And this is and this I've done three times that that sort of workout. And so I was just kinda nervous. I'm like, Jesus Christ.

Like, I'm just gonna be crippled. A friend of mine texted me and said, hey. You know, do you wanna go hiking up this this horrible mountain tomorrow? This is a bitch. It's just switchbacks the entire way up.

It's like three hours just straight up. And, and it's awful. And I was just like and I was just thinking about that. I'm like, Jesus, you know, what if I what if I've done this myself again? So I just, like, took back.

I'm like, you know, let's just take it easy there. You know, I may have just done something very stupid, and, I may not be walking for the next few weeks. So, you know, why don't we just see, you know, how things are going tomorrow, and we'll make a decision. Next day I woke up. It was like nothing had happened.

Like, I hadn't even worked out. I I felt like my hamstrings were, you know, fine. Everything was fine. And I started going up the stairs. It was like it was like nothing happened.

And then I started taking, like, steps two at a time, and I could feel my hamstrings. I go, oh, okay. Yeah. I know. You know, something happened, but, you know, they don't hurt.

They're not sore. I could do it again. Easy. You know? So I was like, right.

You know? Let's go hiking. Hiked up this horrible mountain. Came back town. Felt amazing.

I'm like, right. It's it's time to get back into rugby. Like, I'm I'm ready now. Whereas before that, you know, I wasn't feeling good. I wasn't feeling great.

And, you know, and then, you know, I went carnivore, and this is, like, two weeks later. I'm like, yeah. Let's do this. I was still overweight. I still had a lot of extra excess fat.

You know? And, I was probably, like, two I no. I was two forty three at that time. I know because I was two forty three every day for the next three months after that. And so that's why I know that specifically.

And I was just like, right. You know? I'm gonna go back to rugby. Went to rugby that night, you know, with the Seawolves, who is the, you know, the professional Seattle Team. And that was the the first year that was sort of, just when I got back.

I was in, I was in Bangladesh during the preseason, but now I was just getting back in when they're starting the season. And, and I I went in. All these guys were you know, had been playing and training the whole time, and, I hadn't. I'd been in I'd been in in a, you know, a refugee camp. And I was at a dead sprint the whole time, and I was just I was right in there with it with with everyone, you know, just sprinting, tackling, just everything like that without problem.

And afterwards, I just felt amazing. Next day, still wasn't sore. You know? Then my hamster was like, yeah. You've done a lot of work.

You know? Like, you keep doing this, you're probably gonna tear something, but it's still not sore. Still not not like, I couldn't do it again. Two days after, right, you know, you get your, you know, normally, your your most sore forty eight hours after a major workout. Still, no problem.

I went out to, meet a friend, and we went we decided to go for coffee. And I was thinking to myself, like, oh, okay. You know, I haven't had coffee in a few weeks. Let's see how this affects me. You know?

Can I have coffee? What does this do to me? One cup of black coffee. And twenty minutes later, like, literally, I I could feel my hamstrings and my back start to tighten up and get stiffer and stiffer and more painful and more pain. I was, like, looking down.

Well, what is happening? I was sore for the next two days after that from one cup of black coffee. So I know there are studies that that say that, you know, coffee is good and provides benefit and so forth. And, you know, it might in certain respects. But I also know that it causes inflammation, you know, because I felt it.

And I also know that it has all these defense chemicals that that other plants have typically and typically find a higher concentration of this in the seeds. You know? A seed is a plant's baby, and all organisms protect their their babies more than anything by and large. And so, you know, this is where you generally find, you know, the most the the highest concentration of of toxic defense chemicals. And so, you know, I I noticed right there.

I was sore for two days, not not close to what, you know, I would have been if I was eating a standard diet, but it was enough that I did not want that experience again. And so, like, for me, it was like, you know, hashtag not worth it. So I haven't really drank drank coffee since then.

Is inflammation really the thing that you're solving for when you're, you know, removing all these other things and just eating a carnivore diet? Is that what you're thinking about mostly?

Yeah. I mean, you know, inflammation is a pretty general term that people use, interchangeably just with problems that we're causing in our body.

Right.

But, you know, whether it elicits, you know, an actual inflammatory response, or is just damaging you in some way, you know, is, you know, it's it's neither here nor there. I mean, it's causing it's causing harm in your body. But there's a lot of people that, you know, attribute specifically inflammation to a lot of disease processes. And, and it certainly is the case that, you know, you drain your your immune system. You know, you're gonna have problems, autoimmune issues, certainly, but also pain.

So, you know, when when you have these defense chemicals, they increase inflammation. You're going to experience pain more, and you're you're gonna get stiff and sore and painful. And people have arthritis experience that, to a much higher degree. You know, Sean Baker, you know, when he when he was in his orthopedic, practice, you know, he was putting people on, like, a keto paleo diet, and all of a sudden, they were getting ready to do, like, a shoulder replacement or a knee replacement. And all of a sudden, they come in a month later, and they're like, doc, like, I don't need it.

I'm not in pain. Wow. You know? Like, how is that possible? You got bone on bone arthritis in your knee.

You shouldn't even be walking right now. You know? But, you know, you don't experience the same amount of pain. I've had patients a number of patients that have had, you know, compressed nerves, you know, coming from their spine, and they've had, you know, shooting horrible, you know, electric shock plane called radiculopathy down their legs or or arms. And, you know, you go on a carnivore diet or even a keto diet with, you know, low inflammatory, you know, like, no nightshades or anything like that.

This improves their their condition significantly. You know, fibromyalgia fibromyalgia is something that, you know, people really suffer from, but it's sort of a diagnosis of exclusion. And by diagnosis of what a diagnosis of exclusion means is that you've you've sort of exhausted all your your, your your thoughts and, like, what this could be. We don't know what it is. It was like, okay.

It's this. We call it fibromyalgia. It's not an actual diagnosis. It's it's that we don't know what the hell is going on. We don't know why you're in pain.

Everything that we're looking at says that you probably shouldn't be in pain, but you're in pain. So we'll call it fibromyalgia. And a lot of doctors think that it's actually, you know, people making this stuff up or or, you know, just, you know, maybe drug seeking or, you know, just just, you know, not, you know, need need to, like, drink a cup of concrete or something like that and toughen up. But, but, you know, but there are people that I I I fully know. I know for a fact that this exists because I've I've just I've spoken to people about it and they're, you know, it affects their life and it affects how they live their life.

So it was like, clearly something's happening. Further testimony to this is I've had a lot of patients with fibromyalgia that have gone on a carnivore diet. It's gone. Wow. You know?

So how do you cure something that doesn't exist? Right? And, you know, and if these guys are drug seeking and they just want they just want attention and, and some TLC, well, why why would that help either? You know? Because they're just gonna they're gonna still want the TLC.

They're gonna still want the drugs, but they're saying, no. I'm off the drugs. Thank god. I hated taking those things. Mhmm.

And now I don't need any of the painkillers. So, you know, that is a significant, you know, benefit and reduction in and demonstration of what what reduction in in just inflammation can do as well. Mhmm.

It's incredible. You know, despite all the anti meat propaganda that exists right now, are you still confident in your ability and our ability to be able to share the proper narrative of red meat and get people to start thinking about nutritionally nutrition the right way?

Yeah. No. I I I really am. I I do think that this is I I do think that the truth will out. And, you know, eventually, this will this will just be too big to deny.

And I think I think we're getting to that point or we're sort of hitting critical mass. This is this is just about to explode. It's very exciting, you know, because we have the documentaries. We have the TV shows. We have a lot of people writing books.

I'm I'm writing. I need to get on the train and get my thing out

of there. Easy writing a book. Yeah.

And, you know, and the more people writing books, the more people doing podcasts, the more people talking about this is just gonna grow and grow. And it it is correct. It is backed by hard science, hard demonstrable objective, evidence. And so when people see this, more people see this thing, they're like, this what else can it be? Mhmm.

You know? You have you have vegans who've been, like, vegan influencers and, like, oh, this is the best thing to do. And then they have so many health problems. They end up going carnivore, and they're like, what was I ever doing? I'm so sorry to everyone.

I I, you know, I I said this to you. There's a number of these things, and they're getting they're getting more, you know, more and more number. So I think the truth will allow, and I think I think eventually this is just the cat's gonna be out of the bag. And, you know, even though people are really trying to oppress this and they're really trying to suppress this down, and they're really trying to vilify meat and vilify cows and say they're destroying the environment. They're destroying our health.

They're destroying the world. It is absolute nonsense, and it it can be thoroughly, you know, you know, thoroughly demonstrated that this is nonsense. And so, you know, it's it's going to get out there eventually. I think it's gonna be a fight. I think they're really ramping up their side of the of the of the fight and really, you know, pulling some very dirty tricks.

And in different countries, actually just trying to ban and limit, you know, cattle and livestock. You know, in Ireland, they're talking about having, they were just going to kill 1,300,000 cows because, oh, it's just climate change. You know? Oh my god. This this impact on the environment.

Cows help are part of the environment. Yes. Animals are part of the environment. You know? They contribute to the environment.

They recycle nutrients, and they replenish the nutrients in the soil. It's actually really good. It's a really good thing. You know? And so, you know, that's, that's a very strange line to take, and and I don't think they even believe it.

And there's there's there's many examples of this. You know, in Australia, I was speaking to, a rancher who was saying that they're trying to impose a $3,500 methane tax on cattle. $3,500 is what they sell, yeah, a year old steer for. So, basically, they're making it, you know, cancel out. Like, oh, you wanna raise that?

Fine. You're you're going to make zero money on it. You know? In fact, you're gonna lose money on it because you will not be able to get anything for it. So it's, you know, it's a real nasty, nasty move.

Yeah.

That's nuts. The yeah. Are you writing about any of these environmental or regulatory topics at all, or are you sticking mostly to the nutrition stuff? I'm I'm curious.

You know, I'm I'm I'm doing a chapter on on the environment as well. There's a really good guy. I don't know if you guys had seen my my interview with, doctor Peter, Baelerstedt.

Yeah. He's the best.

Oh, he's awesome.

The sod father. Yeah. The the sod father. Yeah. Yeah.

The sod father of the ruminaught or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah he's a PhD in forage agronomy, has a degree in animal nutrition, and and he's shown, like, this these these are hard facts. These are hard numbers, you know, and this is not something that gets that gets thrown around, very readily. You know, human nutrition is a pretty poor subject. It it it's just a poor discipline.

It's a soft science. It is the definition of a soft science. Animal based nutrition is a is a hard science because you can actually do real controlled trials and studies in in controlled environments. You can't do that with people. You can't take identical twins by the thousands and split them off into identical institutions with identical circumstances and then change one variable Mhmm.

And then study them for their the entire course of their life to to see what's going on. It's not ethical. It's not practical. You can do that with a cow. You can do that with sheep.

You can do that with goats. So we have really, really, really good science in that field, and and he is, a top scientist in that field. And so, you know, he he does a lot of, very, very good work and put out a lot puts out a lot of very, very good information. Then you have guys like, Allan Savory over in Zimbabwe who for the last fifty years has been taking large groups of livestock and running them through deserts and turning those deserts into, you know, verdant fields and forests. You know?

That's because the animals, you know, contribute to the environment. People don't get that. You know? Plants and animals have a symbiotic relationship. You can't have one without the other.

Yeah. You know? And it's very, very important to have animals in an area. You know? People thinks like, oh, if you have too many animals in an area, then they just, you know, they just wipe out the vegetation.

No. It's it's the opposite. You know? The more animals you have, you know, they can be supported, obviously. The the more vegetation there will be to support animals.

You know, like, in in the, you know, the the colonial days of, of America, you know, there were buffalo in the hundreds of million going throughout the Great Plains, and they were not the only large animal. There were deer, and it was home home on the range where the deer and the antelope play. Like, I've never seen an antelope in the Midwest, but they they were. You know? And so, there were tons of these animals.

And all the all the explorers, they were going through they were going through the mountains, which is normally where people go hunting now because that's where the animals are. And they were like, god. You know? Get me out of these stupid mountains. I just can't wait to get into the plains where it's just like you you just you just shoot in a random direction.

You're gonna hit an animal. You know? It was like a nature video on the Serengeti where it's just like herds of animals and just lions dotted around. It's just like just just teeming with life. That was middle of America.

You know? And, and the grass was so, the the soil was so rich. The grass was nine feet tall. There were explorers who was talking about how they they could tie the grass in a knot over their horse's head. Wow.

You know? So, you know, that those animals supported more more plants. And when you got rid of the animals, you know, the plants went away too. And that's what that's what, Savory found as well. They actually you know, the government of Zimbabwe in the seventies killed something like 30,000 elephants because they thought they were turning these areas into deserts.

And in fact, the desert started forming faster because it was actually the elephants were were were stopping that. You know? And then it killed 30,000 of them. All of a sudden, everything went to hell. You know?

And so he actually was intelligent enough to realize that something was wrong there, and he looked into it. And he now has been doing this for forty years. He's written textbooks on the subject. He's a very accomplished and bright guy, and he's doing things that have demonstrable, repeatable results. Right?

So, you know, a a theory is only as good as what it's able to predict. You know? Study is only good as as this repeatability. Like, if you say, oh, hey. We did this.

We got this result. It's like, okay. Can you repeat it? And someone else and someone in another location repeats it again like, no. We're not getting the same results.

Right? They're getting the same results. They're doing this all over the world for at least forty years, if not more. Yeah. And it's the same results every single time.

You know? So that's that's proof that this is this is, this is something. So, yeah, I I would definitely be, you know, commenting and writing on that as well.

Yeah. That'll be great. Speak yeah. Speaking of results, just really quick. We have, Taylor and Katie Collins who founded Epic and Force of Nature Meats.

They're coming on the podcast, this Friday, which we're excited about. Nice. They're huge advocates for the Savory Institute. And they mentioned that when they bought Rome Ranch, all the leading experts were telling them it was gonna take them at least twenty to thirty years to regenerate the land. Just by introducing their first pack of bison, they did they took twenty to thirty years and did it in, like, I think, four to five, they said.

They did something crazy. Yeah. That's awesome. The proof of work that you're talking about right there. It's incredible.

Yeah. Yeah. No. That's awesome. I I didn't know that, but that that's fantastic.

And it's it's so great that more people are getting into, you know, regenerative, farming and agriculture and taking these principles and applying them to their own, to their own land because it's it's it's gonna benefit them commercially, but it will also just benefit the planet. And it's always great when you have, you know, industry that, you know, that's something that benefits your industry also benefits every every everybody and every, thing else. So that's that's always great. And that that's another reason why I think this is just this is the right track to go down. Because, you know, by us doing this, this benefits everyone else.

You know? And, and we're we're dropping you know, we we spend, you know, trillions of dollars a year on medical medical expenditures. We also spend trillion over trillion dollars a year on on eating sugar. You know? And, you know, we we we could free up literally trillions of dollars every single year and put those into, you know, really practical and useful endeavors that would benefit all of humanity and not just spin our wheels, you know, poisoning ourselves and then taking the antidote.

You know? That's not even a good antidote. You know? It's just sort of, you know, having us die slowly over forty years.

Hundred percent. Yeah. That's it seems like such a the solution that's so upstream from everything else, like, all these problems that are happening in society that, you know, hopefully, we can all continue to shed light on these topics. And I think this conversation today will just continue to to to do that for our audience and and hopefully your audience as well. We'll just, you know, have have some information here that they can take away and actually put to use.

So, you know, doctor Chafee, we really appreciate appreciate your time. We know it's valuable. So for you to come on, it's a big deal for us. We really appreciate it.

Hey. Not a problem at all. I was I was happy to. It was really good talking to you guys and meeting you at Kyocon. And, yeah, we should do it again sometime.

Maybe we'll do thirty two thirty two sets together next time. Do

it, man. It'll work. Yeah. I'm down.

Awesome. Well, thanks so much, man.

This is great. No problem, man. Thank you. Appreciate it.